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Post  RknRusty Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:41 pm

GallopingGhostler wrote:...Regardless, the Pee Wee is a little jewel, and loves high nitro fuel. (Until reformulated, don't use the Hobbico Cox Power Fuel. Even though it has 25% nitro, it has 18% oil with only a smidgen of Castor. Bernie at Cox International has recommended at least 20% oil of which half is Castor.)...
Thanks for re-iterating that, George. Warnings against that fuel are scattered about here at CEF, but it can't be stated enough. The Cox Super Power Fuel from Tower or Coxmodels.com can and will ruin a Cox engine in one short session. A couple of our members have proved it.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:51 pm

Thanks, Rusty. That seems to be a Deja Vu experience with earlier modelers of the 1950's/1960's with Testors "39" fuel. (See RCU Post #139, bad engines thread)

Many a modeler ruined model aeroplane engines using that fuel.
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Post  OVERLORD Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:29 am

Thanks for your comments. Before running the engine for the first time, I had it apart but I didn't notice anything wrong so I put it back together again. I didn't look in particular for a cracked bolt boss but that could be the case indeed. When inspecting the parts again today, I noticed that when I put the tank onto the backplate, there was no springyness of the central O ring. The O ring was flat sided and hard, so I replaced that. This O ring could definitely be leaking and making the mixture uncontrollable. Also, after removing the reed - and crawling all over the floor to find the spring back - there seemed to be a kink in it, just in way of the seat edge,  so I replaced the reed as well. When I get another back plate, we'll test again.

The pick up tube is still in the control line position. It doesn't bother me much. As long as the engine stops instantly when runnung out of fuel, that should be OK. What I experienced until now was that during the last 10 seconds of running time, the engine ran very irregularly, which would not give a nice flight.

As what cooling is concerned, there will be an air flow through the lower openings in the cowl that rises past the cylinder and head back out again.

Hopefully, this all will give some positive results.

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Post  GallopingGhostler Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:51 pm

Meanwhile, you might be able to salvage the tank back by JB Welding the broken screw flange. Use a piece of small nylon pushrod tubing or worn out ball pen ink cartridge tubing, cut to length so that it exerts a very slight pressure against the repaired flange when placed over the tank screw. Snug it up but don't tighten too much or you'll break the JB Weld.

Your replacing the tank venturi O-ring should improve needle response and prevent flooding. Your erratic running may have been attributed to fuel consumption going below the venturi location, starting to suck air.

Regarding needing at least 50% of the 20% oil being Castor, engine will run hot. I gather that Leroy Cox scaled the engine down from the .049, but I don't think there was science on cooling, mostly empirical (experimental). This is particularly true when using slightly larger props. The Castor will help to protect the piston ball and socket joint and piston cylinder fit. Once pickup tubing is relocated or replaced to opening at bottom of tank, expect about 1 to 1.5 minutes run time. I was getting 2.5 minutes with 5.25x3 and 5x3 Top Flite nylon props. (Although wood was superior did not use it, as they didn't stand up too well with hard landings.) Some drill a hole through the tank and use an external tank for longer run time. I did that on my Ace R/C Littlest Stick. I don't know if you want to do that to your engine.
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Post  roddie Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:52 pm

Hi Lieven! After reading your findings on disassembly.. I'm thinking that you will have better luck with that engine. You had too many conditions working against a steady run. The crease in the reed.. a brittle O-ring.. and an illusive cracked tank-screw boss in the backplate, which finally broke through.. Once you get those things taken care of and the engine running smoothly; you'll be in a better position to evaluate which prop to use.

I actually don't see that big spinner being much of a concern for this application.. It's merely a "flywheel".. and it's rotational-mass difference compared to running a smaller/lighter one.. (or no spinner at all) is really insignificant when you compare these factors to increasing propeller pitch, which "will" load the engine. If your engine were "throttled".. you might notice a dwell in throttle-response.. until reaching a steady engine speed; both throttling up or down. Consider the physics behind the "Hit and Miss" engine design, which uses a sizeable flywheel to spin the crankshaft between ignition power strokes.

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Post  GallopingGhostler Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:06 pm

Sometimes flywheel action works. Then on the other hand, I have had it where it didn't. I had a tough time with my Enya .09-III TV's, until I dropped the plastic prop for a wood one. Ditto with the Fuji .099S-II. Then it became a totally different engine. By process of elimination, I'd try the engine first with its recommended Cox propellor without the spinner. Then after I got it to run successfully without problem, add the spinner. Sometimes with these little engines, a little more is too much.  Wink 
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Post  OVERLORD Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:08 am

Thanks guys, for thinking with me.

I considered repairing the broken bit of the backplate but it wont be easy for 2 reasons: These backplates are made of zamac, or mazac as they say in the UK, which is not a very good material to work with and once repaired, there is a lot of force acting onto that part by the crankcase bolt. I doubt that a repair would resist to all that.

Thanks to Kim, who sent me a backlate and many more spares for a proper Pee Wee overhaul, the engine is back running again. During the first tests, the engine ran with constant speed which was a big improvement due to the now non-leaking fuel tank and the replaced rubber o ring on the fuel feed. I also fixed a longer pick up tube that goes right to the bottom of the tank. The rpm was not very high though and the spinner vibrated a lot:



I found out that the vibrations of the spinner were caused by the plasting spinner base plate that flexes combined with the weight of the cone attached to it. Also, with a full tank, the engine stopped by itself half way through. Then, I could start it again and kept running till the end.

For a second test, I replaced the needle spring by a piece of silicon tubing and I removed the spinner cone. That was much better: higher rpm and no vibrations:



Now I have to find a way of determine the exact fuel quantity for a certain amount of running time. The tank should be 2 or 3 cc? With 1.5cc of fuel, the engine ran about 30 seconds but I have to do further testing for that.

I fixed the rudder to the fuse by means of a brass plate thet can be bent if needed. The plate was bolted to the fuse so it can be removed.

Guillow's P40 Warhawk build, photos of the finished model - Page 3 Imgp0012

I'm happy that this engine is repaired and runs great. THANK YOU KIM!!!


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Post  roddie Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:04 am

Hi Lieven, Great that you got your engine running right! BTW.. did you replace that creased reed? (you didn't mention that)

Is it necessary to use a prop-screw that long? Also; that brass tubing spacer for the screw; is it the only thing bearing on the spinner-plate? Try cutting the screw shorter.. and use a steel washer to bear on the spinner-plate and try running the engine again with the cone.

EDIT: I just noticed that there's also a bushing that appears to be bearing on the spinner-plate. Is that part of the spinner assembly.. or something you devised in order to utilize the length of the prop-screw(s) that you had on hand? Is it a hub-reduction adapter that came with the spinner? If so; maybe retaining it with the shorter screw/steel washer would stabilize it better

I didn't "see" any vibration in the first test vid.. and if you only did the two tests.. you may find now; that the spinner runs smoother with a shortened prop-screw w/washer.. and at a higher RPM due to harmonic differences.  Two Cents
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Post  getback Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:58 am

Sounds good Lieven , believe you got all the problems repaired , I had a back plate on a BW that gave me a hard way to go till it broke it was plastic  Small Cox Logo Very Happy 
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Post  OVERLORD Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:51 pm

Yes, Roddie, the reed was replaced. The reason for this longer bolt is that a standard bolt is not long enough for the spinner back plate and the prop. So I used a mounting bolt of a Dragonfly. It is impossible to find such bolts over here so I sought till I found that solution. I'm not going to cut that bolt but I found since then a proper Pee Wee prop washer so I'll put that one on. i think Bernie sells longer prop bolts but I have to check.

There is no other spacer or bushing on that spinner plate. Just the bolt and the small brass tube. I distilled a picture out of the video showing the spinner vibration. That is only caused by the bending of the spinner plate when the cone is attached. Maybe I should look out for a Kavan spinner. These are screwed on with the cone onto the prop and they have no back plate at all.

Guillow's P40 Warhawk build, photos of the finished model - Page 3 Vibrat10

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Post  GallopingGhostler Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:17 pm

You have a very small support area from the prop washer on the back side and propeller bearing area on the inside to support the large spinner. Larger engines have a larger prop washer and larger prop bearing area, which help to prevent the spinner's plastic backplate from excessively flexing. A small fender washer or two might be able to stiffen it up enough to prevent excessive vibration. Caveate is added weight. Another possible solution may be a 3/32" plywood disk on one side might dampen some of the flexing. A better solution might be an aluminum spinner, but finding adapters plus the added cost may be prohibitive.
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Post  OVERLORD Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:42 pm

That's right George, the prop washer is too small to properly support that spinner plate. I think that whatever solution one thinks of to stiffen that by adding more washers or plates would not give super results but would certainly add weight. Therefore I think a Kavan spinner is the solution. The spinner is fixed with the cone and not with the back plate.

http://www.weymuller.fr/catalogue/cones/cones_nylon/cones_kavan_bipale.html

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Post  1/2A Nut Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:37 am

That spinner dia. is so big it leaves less working prop for flying the plane. I wonder if a 5x2 would do some good.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:39 am

1/2A Nut wrote:That spinner dia. is so big it leaves less working prop for flying the plane.  I wonder if a 5x2 would do some good.
The Cox Pee Wee is a torquey little bugger. I flew them in the early 1970's in single channel RC planes. I gaine an additional minute of flight time on a Top Flite 5.25x3 nylon prop with no change in flight speed. Haven't tried a modern 5x2, but I don't see why it shouldn't work. Still have my Ace RC Littlest Stick from the late 1970's with Cox Pee Wee. Still need to install modern RC micro gear, convert to 2 channel. Then I'll be able to test the more recent props.
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Post  OVERLORD Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:52 pm

The P40 is as good as finished. I glued on the canopy, the exhaust stacks and put the decals on. I took some pics before fuel proofing.

Guillow's P40 Warhawk build, photos of the finished model - Page 3 Imgp0610

Guillow's P40 Warhawk build, photos of the finished model - Page 3 Imgp0611

Guillow's P40 Warhawk build, photos of the finished model - Page 3 Imgp0612

Guillow's P40 Warhawk build, photos of the finished model - Page 3 Imgp0613

Things that still need doing:

- add a fuel filling tube
- make a drain hole on the cowl
- reinforce the spinner's back plate to prevent wobbling. A reinforcement device, custom built by Roddie is on its way.
- fit a 5x2 prop and experimenting
- balancing
- flying

Does it look mean?

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Post  ian1954 Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:05 pm

That is one excellent stick and tissue Warbird.

What will you be using for fuel proofer? Will it keep the matt finish?
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Post  OVERLORD Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:52 pm

I use spray on Rustoleum varnish for furniture. I'll have to make a test to see if it remains matt.
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Post  1/2A Nut Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:15 pm

Very Nice indeed!!!!!!!

Do you mean Cox .020 prop: 4.5D x 2P
If it is a 5D x 2P let us know where to obtain one please.
Since the spinner gobbles up the prop dia. your Pee Wee may do just fine with a 5.5 x 2.

 Flying 
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Post  Kim Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:05 pm

WHOA! Beautiful Work !!! All it needs is a Zero to chase !!!!

Great Job !!
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Post  roddie Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:52 pm

Lieven, I hope that the spinner adapter discs that I sent you work out. What I forgot to include in the envelope.. was a Cox 6 x 2 black prop. DAMMIT! I bought 4 of them NIP recently.. and I totally intended to pack one in there for you. Even though it's an .049 prop, I would have "bushed" it for you.. with a short length of 1/8" O.D. alloy tubing.. which has an I.D. that's a perfect fit for bushing the Pee Wee's 3-48 prop-screw. I think that the Pee Wee could handle a 6 x 2.. Lower revs.. yes; but that might make for a more scale-like sound and speed for this free-flight airplane. You'd also have 2" of exposed prop-blade to catch air.. (providing.. the 2" spinner works out) rather than the 1-1/2" of exposed-blade you'd get; using a 5" diameter prop.

6 x 3's are pretty common.. and I wouldn't hesitate to try bushing the hub of one.. and running it on a test stand, to see if your Pee Wee has the "testicular-fortitude"  What? to achieve a 2-stroke run. I've run bushed 8 x 3 wooden "Zinger" props on my Cox .049 reed-powered biplanes.. and they will work. Adjust the needle-valve in very short increments, until you find the sweet-spot. If it will run in a 2-stroke while "static".. then it definitely will un-wind in flight.
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Post  1/2A Nut Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:20 pm

APC LP05525 Composite 5.5x2.5  Free Flight Propeller
APC-Landing Products Free Flight Propeller 6 x 2 APC06020

Do you have a pic of the Cox 6x2?
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Post  roddie Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:01 am

1/2A Nut wrote:APC LP05525 Composite 5.5x2.5  Free Flight Propeller
APC-Landing Products Free Flight Propeller 6 x 2 APC06020

Do you have a pic of the Cox 6x2?

Yes, I picked these up last Spring, from an old LHS that was going out of business.

Guillow's P40 Warhawk build, photos of the finished model - Page 3 Cox_6_10
Guillow's P40 Warhawk build, photos of the finished model - Page 3 Cox_6_11

There was a bunch of other Cox parts I bought too. The items were in two small cardboard boxes in the shop's back-room (one of the boxes it took weeks for the owner to find for me).. and prices were 40% off the already low 1970's prices that were on the packages. I was hoping to find complete NIB engines, P/C sets.. and crankcases... but there weren't any. NIP/NIB engines would no doubt have been displayed.. and sold, years ago.. and most hobby shops wouldn't have stocked individual major engine components.

Here's some of what I bought. Not shown are several bottles of Aero-Gloss... some of which I mailed-off to Ron Cribbs.

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Post  1/2A Nut Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:50 pm

Wow excellent find the 6x2 should be great with throttled engines allowing them to pick up and idle smoother while providing good thrust. Perfect for reed engines. Looks like they most likely were designed in 80's as I have never seen known 6x2's in earlier vintage packaging.  Thumbs Up 
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Post  RknRusty Sat Aug 23, 2014 7:24 pm

Yeah it looks mean, it looks Badass! Good job.
Always those last minor details, sometimes maddening, aren't they.
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Post  OVERLORD Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:45 pm

Talking of detailing. I didn't use the plastic moulded exhaust pipes that came with the kit. I used pasta for the exhaust stacks glued on small pieces of balsa. I don't know how this pasta is called in other countries but over here it's called "coquillettes". They're half circle shaped little tubes. I cut a bit off to make it approx. 90°. They were stuck on the balsa with CA glue and painted black.

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