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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  fredvon4 Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:53 am

FYI you can get the fine thread NVA assy from Texas Timers for $15 plus modest shipping and Hank Nystrom the owner is super fast filling orders  

http://www.texastimers.com/

I also buy his fine thread retro fit NVAs (for reed style back plates) and sleeve them into my .049 Aero Norvel engines to run on pressure bladder, so far the JB weld has held up to 35% nitro.

I think with proper prep/clean/prep/clean the small dab of JB as a ramp inside the .049/.051 TeeDee Crank window will hold without problem.

Heading to town in a few for new JB weld as my tubes are over 5 years old. Plan to photo document the builds this afternoon and hopefully get some bench time on each engine tomorrow or Saturday
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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  1/2A Nut Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:28 pm

Shaweet Fred, this is getting juicy look forward to your documentation. Small Cox Logo


This weekend if not sooner I plan to fire up my converted engine and do throttled controlled rpm rich break in.
Will list static tach readings as I go into the mod stages.

May use the APC 4.2 x 2 on the bench to keep the load down and to simulate unloaded flight rpm if with a 4P.
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Mad Ready to assemble

Post  fredvon4 Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:23 pm

Well not really, once done with this post I will mix the JB and do the "Ramp" mod to 1 each of the crank styles.

I plan on testing on the bench with a Green 5" x 3.5"P well balanced prop, 25% Sig champion fuel with a good oil package for these Iron engines.

All engines will start with Doug Galbreath adapter heads for Nelson plugs (standard heat range) All P/Cyl sets are .049 from Bernie and each has the same ball socket slop and dry drag as per Paul Gibeaults Mouse race engine prep article. (If you have not read this down load, you are missing a lot of great and proven information, Paul Gibeault is referenced all over the interweb as a expert in this field)

https://www.coxengineforum.com/t753-the-revised-2011-gibeault-mouse-race-program?highlight=mouse

Eventually I will post bench RPM, and in-flight performance results---- but only for the base line set up.

I was a test officer for the Army and know the math for all the variations and do NOT intend to write a 150 page "Tee Dee Modifications Test Results Document" - TDMTRD. I did that for 11 years in USAOTC and got paid well for it. (Thank all you tax payors! grin).

Variables include: Cox standard head/Cox High Comp Head/ Nelson NL05  base line standard and/ Nelson NL07 Hot plugs. Prop dia and pitch. Venturie inner diameter (.110" to .145"). Fuel Nitro % range 10% to 35% on hand with the correct lube package for theses engines, and the ability to mix any ratio I desire. Probably will play around 40% to see if it really matters.

My Test horse aircraft is a Jeff Dawson combat design close to a Larry Driscol "Lite Hawk" that I built a tad heavy (7.9oZ with TD) but can safely fly without a figure 9 ending...Grin

4 sets ready for JB and assembly (-) the one buggered crank

Tee Dee Performance Crank - Page 2 Cox_td10

Problem crank with burr, notice the case hardened screw from Berni has 1/4" of the threads buggered up...I will chase with a new 5-40 tap once it arrives.

Tee Dee Performance Crank - Page 2 New_0410

The "heavy Hawk" Fred built

Tee Dee Performance Crank - Page 2 Heavy_10
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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  1/2A Nut Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:35 am

Nice layout looks like some fun Fred!

I went ahead and fired up my engine 3.5 turns out with a wood tarnado 6x2 very light prop low pitch perfect to break in the engine and avoid any high rpm. The lil beast didn't want to turn slow lol I had to choke off the exhaust throttle all the way and add another half turn just to keep the thing tame. So far 2 rich runs about 3 mins each will do a couple more for good measure take it apart clean and look for black aluminum goo. I may end up filing down for a thrust washer. I don't really like flipping these snarling things just too snappy on 30% nitro 25% castor blend. So far I have found the aftermarket aluminum carb bodies to seal well they come with a rubber O ring in the front and a rubber gasket for the back end. So far no bad vibrations from mod 1 or from the vintage prop I didn't bother to balance it during this break end period as I intend to use a APC prop in the end.

I used two shims and a cox high compression head, look forward to some tach readings this weekend.

Exhaust ports with a vintage new old stock OEM thick walled TD cylinder
Tee Dee Performance Crank - Page 2 2014-116




This engine will be a back up / alternate open exhaust speed engine for my original design the 1/2A Skorch.
Tatone muffler and RC carb with a Kustom Kraftsmanship pressure tapped backplate-  TD .051 / 5 channel sport / speed plane with flaps.

Tee Dee Performance Crank - Page 2 2014-017


Last edited by 1/2A Nut on Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  balogh Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:47 am

Is this the 051 engine whose crank you have lightened? I am looking forward to your tach readings.
On the aftermarket aluminum carb body, did you buy that from COX Int'l? I have never seen these come with O-rings.

The speed-plane is a beautiful deign, it resembles the ones with 010 and/or 020 engines you posted in another topic...I gather this is RC, and not CL?
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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  balogh Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:52 am

BTW I have this setup in my Tucan RC plane powered by an antic 051 with tapered bore/piston equipped throttle exhaust barrel...this critter is past 100 hours runtime and turns Bernies 5x4 black prop at 22k on the ground, a bit higher when mid-air.

I have slightly widened the openings on the standard throttle barrel to make sure the full throttle run has unobstructed exhaust flow.

Here is my vid (one of them) on youtube, if you are interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTZ8WcmHdpE
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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  balogh Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:03 am

Hey, 1/2A Nut, I found this on rcgroups: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2241141

Was it your post? Could you advise where I could get the design drawings of the speedplane? I'd love to build one for my TD 051-s
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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  1/2A Nut Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:47 pm

Yes that is my thread its a 5 channel with flaps.

Your vid 21.6k to 22.3krpm most times level and 23.9k in best dive
Moment of throttle control 14k rpm

Im just on for a min will respond better after work RC Plane

Whatch out for this guy on ebay he will make up a batch for each TD size

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cox-15-Tee-Dee-Aluminum-Carb-Body-with-Oring-Seals-Black-Anodize-/251657820244?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=2K82u2HHkAZiRpt8jGmE4Sgvx8k%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc#ht_1205wt_1105



http://www.ebay.com/itm/251657820244?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT#ht_1205wt_1171

Shipping:$1.92 Standard Shipping | See details  
Item location:Blossvale, New York, United States
Seller:ridenfligh (1146 )
sold over 1,146 units online thus far he is out of stock at the moment so just have to save his web page and check from time to time.
Based in United States, ridenfligh has been an eBay member since Dec 03, 2000

http://www.ebay.com/usr/ridenfligh?_trksid=p2047675.l2559


Tee Dee Performance Crank - Page 2 Td_car10
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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  balogh Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:49 pm

Thx that is very useful...but how about the 1/2A speedplane plans,are these publicly available somewhere?
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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  dckrsn Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:57 pm

Regarding e-bay seller ridenfligh, he's a straight-up guy in my book.
I contacted him about an .049 TeeDee carb body in bare aluminum(which
wasn't listed) and he served one right up, no problem.
Bob
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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  1/2A Nut Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:56 pm

The Skorch is my own design the build thread was progressive without the need to draw plans up rather templates. The first was for TD .010 to TD .020 the second TD .049 to TD .09 the 3rd one is coming up TD .09 to TD .15


Two build threads:

Stage 1
Lil Speedy  - TD .010 to TD .020
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/1-2-1-8-airplanes-70/11597545-cox-td-010-ply-rolled-fuselage-3ch-speeder.html

Stage 2
Skorch - TD .049 to TD .09
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/1-2-1-8-airplanes-70/11602404-ply-rolled-fuselage-part-deux-1-2a-mini-skorch.html

Stage 3  
TD .09 to TD .15
My Original Designs:  Legacy / Texas Wind /  Kyle Lee Bradley
(Legacy was built in 1989 / 84in span) may do one for this class.

Tee Dee Performance Crank - Page 2 3_orig11

Could lean out the designs for more speed:
Tee Dee Performance Crank - Page 2 3_orig12


Last edited by 1/2A Nut on Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  balogh Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:59 pm

Thanks alot, I will look them up. Just a quick one: is the wing for the 049 size full balsa, or balsa-sheeted skeleton of formers and spars?
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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  1/2A Nut Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:14 am

I like to use solid balsa planks and sculpt out and airfoil this one has a near fully symmetrical wing from thick
10mm balsa when measured with a caliper.

Stated as 3/8x4x36"  on the lable plank weight from store 2.74oz

4 x 30in tapered swept tip wing came out at 88 SQ IN.
Weight after sanding 37g or 1.3oz

Tee Dee Performance Crank - Page 2 2014-018

Tee Dee Performance Crank - Page 2 2014-019

About 9.5mm thick and 1 mm thick trailing  edge.

Completed less servo's for ailerons and flaps - thin 1/64th ply sheet center top and bottom protects the balsa, adds strength and for when cutouts mounting 2 servos.

Tee Dee Performance Crank - Page 2 2014-020

Underside shows the setup for what will be simple wedge type monokote hinged surfaces.
Tee Dee Performance Crank - Page 2 2014-021
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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  1/2A Nut Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:03 am

Agreed Bob, regarding e-bay seller ridenfligh.

I have had a few discussions with Mike about future project offerings. I have bought multiple units of everything he sells.
Backplates for 6 of my TD .020's, many many carb bodies for .010,.020,.049,.09,.15's, APC prop adapter inserts for .049's.  

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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  Ken Cook Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:18 am

Mike is a great guy. I designed those APC adapters and Mike started producing them. I also designed or I should say redesigned Cyclon/Profi mounts which he's made a lot of. His work is top notch and he appreciates all the support. Ken
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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  1/2A Nut Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:16 pm

Ok took the engine apart after 4 runs of 3ish mins each everything looked good no black goo build up.
I had the ball socket reset and fired up for med throttle for a warm up then let her rip with the tarnado thin wood 6x2 and throttle sleeve it hit 22,180 rpm steady two shims with a new old stock vintage high compression head, fresh fuel 30% nitro 25% castor ambient temp 76 degrees.

I kept the stock NV leaned it out then backed off a hair. No pressure just suction. No apparent vibration or oscillation when viewing the wood prop from the side. Prop was new old stock. Could have balance the prop to eek out some more rpm but no big deal this engine has now been oiled and bagged ready for use with a APC 4.2 x 4 and should do about 23.5+ static with a Kirn Kraft NV will just settle for that and not mod any further in lieu of the bored out pin. Thrust was impressive with the the thin wood 6 x 2 prop!


Tee Dee Performance Crank - Page 2 2014-117


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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  fredvon4 Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:15 am

Finally got a few runs on three of the four project Tee Dees. No way with my el cheapo tach to reliably say if the so called Hi Performance crank means anything but a viable option as a replacement shaft. Also I did not detect any significant increase using the JB weld crank shaft interior "ramp" to direct fuel flow to the rear better. The truth is I did not deliberately peak each engine to max scream and ran each of them at what is usually my semi wet needle setting like I would fly them

Generally each one is happy around 24,700 RPM with the smaller Blue prop, 22,500 with the cut down rubber ducky, and 23,250 RPM with the Green prop. I used Venturies from .110 up to .145 and did not get any real difference in RPM.

Weather here turned windy, cold and wet so flying each will have to wait

The 5-40 Tap came in (glad I bought 2 of them) and I screwed up and cost myself $35 by trying to twist a bit to hard against the burr (perhaps the original threads were simply not cut correctly)
Tee Dee Performance Crank - Page 2 30_dol10
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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  balogh Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:04 pm

Too bad with the broken shaft end!!!

Your speeds seem quite high. What are the prop sizes for each of the above speeds? And the fuel blend?

My crazy-runner 051 (old stock, tapered bore, without mods, but 100+ hours runtime on it) swings the 5x4 prop of COX Int'l at 22k, with nitro/castor max 20%/20% in the fuel.
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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  fredvon4 Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:45 pm

Fuel used was Sig 25%N 20% oil (a 50 /50 mix they blend with synth and castor)

I have flown the light weight (designed for Heavier and much faster Cyclon or Fora 1/2As) combat planes with these Tee Dees and cut down rubber duckie (durable in a figure 9)

But to your question: the Tee Dee .049s seem happy on the bench with Yellow Bernie sourced 5D 3P cut down to 4.75"D and rounded tips

The so called glass props come to me from
http://aerohobby.ca/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=178

By eyeball they look to be around 3 to 3.5"Pitch. The Blue ones are 4 3/4" and the Green are 4 15/16". Not tested yet are the APC 5.5"D 2P and 2.5P that scream up to 32K RPM (where my tach tops out) on the Fora .049s

Tee Dee Performance Crank - Page 2 Half_a10
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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  balogh Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:52 pm

Thanks, Fred. Are these small dia props not posing the danger of engine failure at extremely high revs? COX's TD049-051 manuals state speeds in excess of 22,5k or so shouold be avoided.
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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  balogh Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:56 pm

Sorry, I checked again, the recommended top speed is 24k


http://coxengines.ca/files/049%20Tee%20Dee.pdf
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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  fredvon4 Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:20 pm

Because of the 24K max RPM and others who note TDs grenade around 26K should you twist them that high. I think I won't use the blue props much unless they give some serious advantage in the air where I am sure they might go over 25k.

My Aero Norvel .049 engines get over 30K RPM and love the blue props. Unfortunately that combination hauls my planes too fast for me right now
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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  1/2A Nut Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:58 pm

Thank you Fred for the numbers and findings, I would imagine keeping the TD's under 24k is key to having a useable seasonal engine.

I obtained a new old stock Hobby Lobby sold as Meredith off ebay and drew up something suitable 1/9th scale will need to use a TD .09 looks like the TD .051 shown next to the 22g pilot figure is tad small. I think having a certain scale pilot dictates the types of aircraft design that ends up on the drawing board.

Tee Dee Performance Crank - Page 2 Brigit10



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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  getback Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:35 pm

yes if the pilot is larger than the engine there would be a problem unless he has big arms lol! Eric Pumpkin Leaves Stupid Leaves
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Mad Re: Tee Dee Performance Crank

Post  1/2A Nut Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:37 am

Leaves Lol Eric,

Yea if with a 1/2A engine the pilot would have to fly an ultralight or small experimental design. The piston is in range
to the scale hand of the pilot.  I could go with a lightweight all balsa eggshell or stringer constructed fuselage and boney built up wing. I blew up the design on my 32in monitor, would be doable just pushing the engine a bit... all up RTF could be sub 18oz.

Then again TD .09's collect dust waiting for a day in the sun even ye ol Queen Buzz.   Sad

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