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Control line time...............

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Control line time...............

Post  rsv1cox on Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:50 pm

I commandeered my son for a morning of cutting down dead pine trees which morphed into talk about model airplanes which turned into a discussion about line lengths and the limitations of the field next to my house.  

I have been mowing it back a couple of yards each time hoping that one day I could fly models on 52' steel lines there.  Not sure, I got out a new roll of 60' dacron  (30' effective) threaded up a half A handle wondered which Cox powered plane to fly.  

Finally after much debate I grabbed my old tried and true scratch built whatever winged with a horizontal stab. and powered by a throttled Enya .15.  I really didn’t want to crash one of my Cox powered planes and I knew the scratch built could take a punch.  Didn’t matter anyway, I chickened out and let Mark fly it.

Test ran it at the garage and after at least 30 years sitting it started right up on about the fifth flip.  I leaned it out, removed the glow plug clip and it died.  Wouldn't start again until I used the electric starter, leaned it out and it has started and ran well ever since hand flipped.  (Mark is using the flaps to control the throttle.)







Loaded the Honda and headed for the field (about 200 yards away).  I started it up and hand launched it.  Watched Mark make several circles and headed to get the camera which I had left in the car.  I got back just in time to see it hit the ground in level flight at full throttle.  I was right, it can take a punch - no damage other than a slightly bent left gear.  





As mentioned here before I built it “funny”.  More experimental than anything.  I ganged all the controls.  When you give it full up you get full down flaps and full throttle, reverse at full down gives idle throttle.  I used to have a ball flying it.  Full up/full throttle climbing for the stars, level flight at half throttle,  idle with flaps gave a nice slow decent.  Thought it might work for carrier,  Didn’t, couldn’t get the nose up.

Anyway Mark said it was like a roller coaster, up and down holding full up on the handle which was the problem, it just wasn‘t adjusted correctly.  I never should have tried it with that small handle.  I always flew it on 52’ steel line with the big red EZ-JUST handle.  



Good news is I have enough room now at my field to fly on 52’ lines without trimming branches off trees.

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Re: Control line time...............

Post  Ken Cook on Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:28 pm

Bob, the Cox handle is entirely out of the question to fly that plane. In fact I'm glad you still have the plane. Dacron lines are also unacceptable to fly that model. The problem is at the termination ends.  If I understand correctly, you now have 30" which is extremely short and could provide your model with enough speed to break the Dacron lines.  At a minimum, without even seeing the model, I can say .012 stainless steel. at about 50' length. You need an upgrade of handle. You mentioned the large EZ-Just. That handle has a 5" line spacing. You need a handle with 4" or less. While some may think oh what's the big deal. I have been around a lot of accidents due to either carelessness, or just not understanding. If I may make a recommendation, the Reyco mahogany handle from Brodak with a 3.94" line spacing.  I would also consider medium size slider clips for your connections. The snap like swivel clips that you show in the picture of the handle is unacceptable as well.    This is essentially a EZ Just "Hot Rock". The large EZ-Just doesn't say Hot Rock on the side.  If one of you were outside of the circle and the plane was to get loose, it could be tragic. I never thought so until I witnessed a 3/4 oz. Perfect fuel tank come loose from a 1/2A plane and take a full size man to the ground knocking him out unconscious after a head strike.  After seeing that I always wondered what an entire plane could do.

http://brodak.com/reyco-control-line-handle-mahogany-regular.html
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Re: Control line time...............

Post  Cribbs74 on Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:04 pm

Hey Bob! So glad you got out there and went after it. Apart from what Ken said (which is good advice) get rid of that funky throttle thing. Cool, yes but an accident waiting to happen. You want consistency and that throttle setup could get you into trouble.

Great pictures!

Ron
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Re: Control line time...............

Post  rsv1cox on Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:14 pm

Thanks Ken, I knew all that but did it anyway. Doesn't speak well of my sensibilities. But I was reasonably sure that everything would turn out alright, and it did except for the pancake at the end. The terrain had something to do with that. The field has quite a slope and Mark was centered on the low side. We started out to fly half A but I didn't want to sacrifice one of my nice ones so we went with the home built tank and the dacron lines. Better options are coming. I have always had great luck with that ez-just handle. It's flown every 09 and above C/L plane that I have, but I am looking into that Brodak handle, the ez-just is not adjustable for bell crank width.

Next up is the P-40, a great flyer with the Enya .19 or maybe the sacrificial Cox F something or other. Followed by the Air Crate .09 Enya, something I will need advise about.











No one picked up on my Cox T shirt. I don't usually put my ugly puss out there for all to see. Smile



Ron, the appeal of that "funny" home-built is the control set-up. Definitely out of the normal.

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Re: Control line time...............

Post  Cribbs74 on Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:48 pm

I caught the shirt, and the sticker. Just didn't comment, sorry.

I was more concerned about the run. It is all about fun, it's a hobby. I was thinking about stunts and how problematic an on and off engine would be. When flying through manouvers you constantly correct to create nice shapes. In that situation you want a consistant engine speed.

I guess I didn't clue into the fun and silly factor of it all. Keep on keepin' on Bob!

Ron
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Re: Control line time...............

Post  rsv1cox on Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:33 pm

Cribbs74 wrote:I caught the shirt, and the sticker. Just didn't comment, sorry.

I was more concerned about the run. It is all about fun, it's a hobby. I was thinking about stunts and how problematic an on and off engine would be. When flying through manouvers you constantly correct to create nice shapes. In that situation you want a consistant engine speed.

I guess I didn't clue into the fun and silly factor of it all. Keep on keepin' on Bob!

Ron

Thanks Ron for understanding. I have so many "straight" C/L models plastic and balsa I just wanted something different when I put that one together some 35-40 years ago. I should print EXPEREMENTAL on the side. Smile
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Re: Control line time...............

Post  RknRusty on Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:36 pm

rsv1cox wrote:



Hey Bob, yer lookin' pretty good there for an Ol' Dude. Congratulations for earning your Fun Merit Badge for 2016!.
Rusty

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Re: Control line time...............

Post  getback on Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:03 am

Man It's good to see your getting out there and having some fun , Now I want to see you behind the handle after everything is trimmed out and fling . And as Ken said the right equipment for the right plane wee don't want to hear about something bad happening to you or son ! .. Sounds like you got a line up to fly More Fun coming cheers I been pretty busy working on and seeing mowers and trimmers so my flying has haulted for now and the building just ant happening either and now its HOTT again Hot 52' that's great !!! Devil
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Re: Control line time...............

Post  rsv1cox on Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:37 am

Yeah Rusty, I could use your head of hair.... Smile

And Eric, I'm working my way up to it. Probably the P-40, it will do loops all day so I can just stand in place and avoid the dizzys.

Anyone have a source for the slider clips that Ken describes? All I can find are these Sullivans that I don't care for. I had a bunch of the large sliders at one time but they are among the missing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sullivan-S149-Line-Connectors-Large-50-Test-2-/360917670531?hash=item54085e9a83:g:XS0AAOSwuAVW09XJ
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Re: Control line time...............

Post  Ken Cook on Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:36 pm

Brodak http://brodak.com/. They have everything you need. I believe they're located pretty close to you as well. Ken
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Re: Control line time...............

Post  rsv1cox on Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:20 am

Ken Cook wrote:       Brodak http://brodak.com/. They have everything you need. I believe they're located pretty close to you as well. Ken

Thanks Ken, Forgot about Brodak even though I have an account with them, went to Omni, Tower, and ebay and came up with nothing.  

Placed an order for a couple different sizes (medium and large) and a quart of Brodak 5% nitro/castor.  Looked at the Reyco adjustables too but at $30.00 I think I will pass, probably well beyond my abilities anyway.  Sullivan has a wierd handle for around $13 but the spacings are crazy.  

I ran the Enya .15 dry of fuel then blew out the tank with compressed air and sprayed a little Remoil in the venturi and exhaust port and flipped over, a routine that has kept my engines free for many years.  I hate to put the "experimental" up on the shelf without flying it, but after watching Mark go round and round I doubt if I could cope.  Maybe later on longer lines and proper connectors.  I never had a problem with it when I flew it years and years ago.    

Bob

Edit add.... While we are at it, what are your thoughts on flying that Air Crate with an 09 Enya on 52' lines?



The lower wing (C/L wing) is bolted on with a nylon bolt, sits in a cradle and will be well rubber banded too.
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Re: Control line time...............

Post  Ken Cook on Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:35 pm

Bipes are a lot of drag, they need to have some power behind them. You certainly don't want that plane tail heavy. Line lengths are pretty hypothetical. If you start at 52', you may need to shorten the lines due to the speeds and line tension lacking. It may just be spot on. Different handles and line connectors have different lengths and the length of the inboard wing to bellcrank is different from plane to plane which can easily add an additional 12" in length. Sullivan and or Pylon brand lines are ABSOLUTELY terrible when it comes to equal size lines or lengths. Just because the package claims 52', I've had lines 57' and I've had them as short as 51'. I haven't used commercially made lines in years as I purchase in bulk and make my own sets.

I'm not familiar with that particular model. It appears that you have sheeted wings which can certainly lend some weight to that model. I would certainly try the 52'. I see that old EZ Just handle in the pic and I cringe. That handle tends to overcontrol due to it's line spacing. When you combine that handle and a small bellcrank, your asking for a real roller coaster flight. All of what I mention though is related to what hole the pushrod is in on the bellcrank and the control horn size.

Bob , I haven't thoroughly gone over all the handles available through Brodak's. I will say the handle I recommended is just at or under $20.
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Re: Control line time...............

Post  rsv1cox on Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:16 am

Yes, It came without wings.........



which I built up from the original plans and sheeted but I think they were originally monocoated because the tail was. Overall though it must be much lighter than originally flown with escapement and all the accessories that system necessitates and a throttled Enya .09.



I planned on using clevises for the lead outs but the lengths would not allow enough throw for effective elevator control so I had to go with loops which causes some concern due to "sawing" of the bell cranks holes. I'm hoping a drop of epoxy in the holes will delay that for the few flights I hope to put it through. I probably should move the control rod to the inner hole, but I'm always afraid of not having enough control..





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Re: Control line time...............

Post  Cribbs74 on Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:32 pm

I would .15 that thing if it was mine. Bob you are 77yrs young, that's a lot of wisdom. Have fun and consequences be dammed. At least you can say you did it. We can't take this stuff with us.

Ron
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Re: Control line time...............

Post  rsv1cox on Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:14 am

Cribbs74 wrote:I would .15 that thing if it was mine. Bob you are 77yrs young, that's a lot of wisdom. Have fun and consequences be dammed. At least you can say you did it. We can't take this stuff with us.

Ron

Yes, a .15 would be a better selection. First it would solve the tail heavy problem and second provide more power to overcome all that drag. Right now fuel empty it balances about an inch and a half aft of the top wings leading edge but ahead of the bottom wing which admittingly will not provide much lift. It evidently flew R/C (without control line drag) on the .09 so we shall see.

With the escapement parts that Kim sent me and the parts that I have on hand, one day I may convert it back to GG, all I need are crystals and a transmitter.

Bob
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Re: Control line time...............

Post  getback on Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:36 am

Bob , if the .15 is going to make it that much better and fix the CG then that is what I would go with (not like you don't have one ) in CL form and I would love to see that smile on your face doing loop d loops . I Love This Forum!
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Re: Control line time...............

Post  rsv1cox on Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:22 am

Ken Cook wrote:          Bipes are a lot of drag, they need to have some power behind them. You certainly don't want that  plane tail heavy. Line lengths are pretty hypothetical. If you start at 52', you may need to shorten the lines due to the speeds and line tension lacking. It may just be spot on. Different handles and line connectors have different lengths and the length of the inboard wing to bellcrank is different from plane to plane which can easily add an additional 12" in length. Sullivan and or Pylon brand lines are ABSOLUTELY terrible when it comes to equal size lines or lengths. Just because the package claims 52', I've had lines 57' and I've had them as short as 51'. I haven't used commercially made lines in years as I purchase in bulk and make my own sets.

          I'm not familiar with that particular model.  It appears that you have sheeted  wings which can certainly lend some weight to that model. I would certainly try the 52'. I see that old EZ Just handle in the pic and I cringe. That handle tends to overcontrol  due to it's line spacing. When you combine  that handle and a small bellcrank, your asking for a real roller coaster flight. All of what I mention though is related to what hole the pushrod is in on the bellcrank and the control horn size.

        Bob , I haven't thoroughly gone over all the handles available through Brodak's. I will say the handle I recommended is just at or under $20.

This was the one I was looking at Ken, got a couple like it.

http://brodak.com/control-line-parts/handles/reyco-adjustable-control-line-handle.html
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