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OK no more Stone woes...Nobler ARF help solicited

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Help! OK no more Stone woes...Nobler ARF help solicited

Post  fredvon4 on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:53 am

High again
Phreddy here with a few questions

Much too immobile to get any good photos but.... many here will already know how bad the Top Flite ARF covering can be delivered...

of course being infirm I read and re-read all the instructions 5 times now.... BUT--- is there any Real way to make this pig look like it should?

Asking for "in the know" opinions...this Pig is so bad I think I can strip it ALL off by hand BUT then I totally suck at doing a good Kote job around any corner....

So... accepted that it will NEVER be beautiful--- should I just fire up the Iron, tighten up stick down best as can be, or strip and pretend I can do better?

No response yet (day three) from Tom Morris on a drop in replacement set of controls, but then again, I am used to the cottage guys being too busy

Some info that may help future questions and YOUR solicited help:

First ever Horrid ARF
First ever Full fuselage model
First ever fussing with a fiber glass Cowl and frustration trying to figure the written instructions for creating all the openings
First ever flapped stunt plane
First ever inverted engine

Planned full control set from Tom Morris
Planned Tom Morris .015 60" pre-made lines to hard point handle
Planned good OS 40 LA with Thunder Tigre 11"X 4.5" prop with GP 1.34 spinner...what a PITA to adapt this spinner for a Thunder Tiger prop!
Supplied 6 Oz Clunk tank on Muff pressure
Planned re-enforcing engine crutch and fuel proofing using several ideas from other ARF builds on line

I will take a breath and go to my corner to cry a bit as I focus on specific questions and work through this agony

BTW... my shop has a lap top and real key board... I truly despise trying to compost a post on a tablet and on screen key board... arrrgggghhh!!

Spelting errors mostly caught or left for humor or irony reasons






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Help! Re: OK no more Stone woes...Nobler ARF help solicited

Post  getback on Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:20 pm

You got a picture of that Pig!!  Top Flite ARF covering is crap as far as i am concerned but ever since i have done the iron i have not induced the smell (not that its all bad !) did you use any water with the dope u used ? 50/50 is a good mix and you will have to be patient and wait for it to dry/tighten before you know what you have ,,,,,, hell just iron the sucker lol!
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Help! Re: OK no more Stone woes...Nobler ARF help solicited

Post  RknRusty on Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:09 pm

Fred, I have answers and comments for you. However, I am headed out to the shop and will get back to this later. For now, I'll say this; you've no doubt read lots of bad stuff, but I think you're assuming it to be worse than it really is. The Chinakote is very tough covering, but not fully shrunk at the factory, probably to prevent distorting the unassembled parts over time in the box. There are some places that the seams need securing where they overlap, but that's simple.

After the plane is built, it's a matter of minutes to shrink it all tight and stick the edges down. The hardest part is replacing the leadouts and bellcrank, unless you approve of the one that's in it already. I've seen some that are better than others. My current one had to be swapped, and I put a Sig nylon one in it. My previous one was fine the way it came. You don't need to bolster the whole airframe to withstand a thousand flights either, and that's the goal of some of the Stunthangar crowd that writes about it.

So don't sweat blood over it, I've been in one end and out the other of the Nobler ARF, and anything I don't know, Ken Cook does know. Once you get rolling, it'll be easy. I don't know if you're gonna get a 6 oz. tank crammed in there though. I use a Dubro or Sullivan 4 oz. clunk, which is a perfect fit for it.

Okay, off to the shop. I got a wing to finish.
Rusty

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Help! Re: OK no more Stone woes...Nobler ARF help solicited

Post  ian1954 on Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:49 pm

I have one of these - I have had it a couple of years now - I keep opening the box getting the bits out - reading the "manual" - and putting it back in the box. The last time I looked at it was when Rusty was posting about rejuvenating oneand again when he flew it



I try to be positive about it - it is very light - much lighter than I could build. The covering is better than I can do - applying a finish to a model is something I am not too good at and lack the required patience. It is straight - there are no warps or twists.

As the kit stands, I think it could be put together in a day and flown the next.

Why haven't I put it together? ............. It feels very flimsy. The wing is straight but can be twisted at the slightest touch. It is almost as if the covering contributes nothing to the strength although it is tight. The fuselage is the same and the engine bearers look weak. The balsa in the places I can see also appears quite soft - whether that is a good or a bad thing I don't know - but there is nothing between the covering and the wood and so I am not convinced that it will remain "fuel" proof.

Then again - I prefer my models to be able to take a beating. They need to!

There have been quite a few electrickery conversions and all I have to do is decide on the motor mount.

https://modelismocubano.com/2013/05/31/kit-de-nobler-convertido-a-electrico/

I have the motor

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Help! Re: OK no more Stone woes...Nobler ARF help solicited

Post  RknRusty on Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:10 pm

It's a good flying plane. You have to fuelproof the engine and tank compartments. It's designed for a Fox .35, so something like an OS .35 like the FP I used may require some tail weight. You need to dremel some cooling vent holes in the cowl. Being able to twist the wing isn't so much a problem as long as it resists vertical motion - up and down. You wouldn't want it to flap like a bird. Most PA ships are built with light basa, and full fuselage models will not sustain a whack like a profile will.
Rusty

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Help! Re: OK no more Stone woes...Nobler ARF help solicited

Post  RknRusty on Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:21 pm

I haven't watched that video in a long time. Pretty good flight, it wouldn't have been an unacceptable pattern in a contest. So, there you see what a Nobler ARF can do with a .35fp and an Intermediate pilot. That was 4 ounces of 10/22 fuel.
Rusty

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Help! Re: OK no more Stone woes...Nobler ARF help solicited

Post  fredvon4 on Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:29 am

Rusty

The first thing I did was open the wing cut out to look see the controls.. and did not like what I saw, so just called Tom Morris who is building me a drop in replacement proper dimension set. I asked for 3 " BC as others had trouble mounting his 4" BC version. Once the rig gets here, I will use the existing crap lead-outs to pull/ snake the new LO wires back out the wing tip.. and add a top plate for the BC pivot axle

Included new version White plastic clunk tank (in instruction claim to be 6 Oz to give the recommended OS 40LA enough flite time for full pattern)
There fore and aft mounting room to shift it some but pretty much fills the area top bottom side to side.

All the threads I read about uneven running upright vs inverted seemed to be complaining about the original tin Tank set ups...

I was initially concerned about initial placement as moving it up or down later is obvious a PITA...May be a non issue with this tank, as there is not hardly any way to set it ...I just have to remember, as I try to make the rear corner kicked out a tad, that I am working upside down

Later today I will take the rudder and stab and give following the instructions for tightening the covering and see how it goes

On more relaxed second look the wing is not bad at all but the fuselage has some horribly large wrinkle semi stuck down on sheet wood...my experience is many of these may fold over and be even uglier....BUT first I may set iron real hot and try to sort of shrink the bad spots buy hovering the shoe over them first before any pressure

Herman Green, who sold me the OS 40LA silver used, told me this one has only a trial bench run on it.. It has a front NVA and metal back plate already

This engine/muffler requires a bit of tail weight...so was thinking about deliberately mounting it a schosche further back than the exact location the plans call for..

I am mostly planning the engine shift aft about 1/4" ( about as far as it can go)--- as I think the method I see to make the crutch tougher is going to add a bit of unavoidable nose weight with the top n bottom aluminum MM plates, ply triangles, glass and epoxy.... And as I trial fit this stupid cowl I think it can be cut to fit back a bit enough to clear the spinner

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Help! Re: OK no more Stone woes...Nobler ARF help solicited

Post  RknRusty on Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:42 am

Make sure you don't cramp your plumbing with the engine position and don't forget to make room for the filter. Brodak sells a nice tiny aluminum one, female end to the engine. I don't think clunk tanks need to be shimmed out if the pickup moves freely. I do it on profiles but I didn't have any wiggle room in my Nobler. It was just straight forward, and you heard the video. As far as height, depending on how it's plumbed, you can rotate the end cap to achieve the same results. I was not running uniflow and it ran fine just dropped in place with some thin padding. My crutches broke at the rear bolt hole.
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Help! Re: OK no more Stone woes...Nobler ARF help solicited

Post  fredvon4 on Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:08 pm

Exactly Rusty

Basically why aluminum engine bearers top AND bottom of supplied mystery wood(MW) crutch...

Considered removing MW crutch BUT that is too well glued to remove and replace with REAL Maple

Had considered plumbing supplied tank for uni-flo but have had such good success with muff pressure and coupled with my Fun fly profile palnes....no serious need to try full pattern flying...I am not very concerned with un-even upright vs inverted flite by a few micro seconds

Hell brother ....grin.... the only reason I ever build ANY of my models correctly

Is for my friend (Sean McEntee) who might like to wring it out with a correct stunt pattern as he maidens my meager creations.... and then declares each suitable for my meandering unskilled leisure flying

If I did not have a good flyier buddy

I would have MUCH more bag o Balsa for the fire place....grin

I will miss him (Sean) immensely as he moves nearer to you at Ft Bragg this summer... be kind to Sean...when and if--- I know you will meet him----he is a super Butt head killer with an impressive resume (read Rag Head/Sand ----er if you will, and I do NOT apologize) ... Sean McEntee --professional RW drone pilot ---I admire a this young man a LOT he and his dad, and I agree...one very good stunt C/L pilot

Look for the Walker Cup on his mantle some day as well as a WC win... well as long as the WC win is not in Dubai...they hate his ass there

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Help! Re: OK no more Stone woes...Nobler ARF help solicited

Post  RknRusty on Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:26 pm

Oh, I'll be sure to contact him in the name of the Carolina Gang. Huntersville will be his nearest club
Thanks for the heads up.
Rusty

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Help! Re: OK no more Stone woes...Nobler ARF help solicited

Post  fredvon4 on Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:48 pm

Revisit this old thread for 2 reasons

1. Sean McEntee is NOW headed for Ft Carson Colorado so it may be some time before he meets and fly's with any of the Carolina gang

2. TF Nobler will get finished during this winters rainy WX days

BUT! I am almost ashamed to put in the very expensive* and well done Tom Morris controls

Of course *Expensive is in the eye of the user and What they are going in....

I hasten to fully recommend Tom Morris stuff--- hell for the cost of build and delivery, I cannot reproduce these to this degree of craftsmanship

My negative sounding above, is all about putting such beautiful $45 control system is a crappy $100 Nobler ARF

As I clean up the shop and get back to the Brodak P-40 ARF I think (cuz I have all the bits) I will copy the Tom Morris controls for it as I also consider Rusty's Flap tweeks

OK enough... back to bench trimming my ARC Oriental and contemplating graphics







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Help! Re: OK no more Stone woes...Nobler ARF help solicited

Post  Ken Cook on Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:46 pm

When tank height is off it's not just a inverted vs upright problem. The problems begin when the plane enters into the maneuvers. It's either going to break lean or go rich. Going rich on a run that's already rich can cause it to shut off. I have seen dumb mistakes like this made over and over when one can't differentiate a good run from a bad one and when to know to do certain maneuvers. A plastic tank with uniflow is adjusted by altering the uniflow pipe internally. Hard tanks either need to be raised or lowered. This can't always happen and the engine needs to be shimmed off of the bearers.

                 Fred, a LA .40 in a Nobler is going to require 2-2.5 oz's of tailweight. If you start putting a spinner on the plane this is going to get worse. Mounting that engine back further is not going to balance the plane. Fox weighs 7 oz. the LA .40 weighs 9+ with muffler. The same goes for your Oriental. The ARF Oriental comes with a 4" bellcrank which is ABSOLUTELY the stupidest decision that could've been made. The controls are far too slow and many bit the dirt on their first outing. The Oriental flying on a standard 4" handle doesn't provide enough movement to pull out. You start putting a modern OS FP or LA without those adjustments in the bird and you might as well contact Brodak for a new plane. I test flew Oriental prototype #1 which is owned by Rusty's friend Bob Z. Bob was flying the plane with the large EZ Just handle with 5" spacing, it's a war club. No one in their right mind would use this handle to fly stunt and I commented as to why he was doing this. He handed me the handle and so go fly it. I quickly figured out why. The plane was still not very responsive with this setup.
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Help! Re: OK no more Stone woes...Nobler ARF help solicited

Post  RknRusty on Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:14 pm

Fred, I look at it from another perspective. You put the high quality control system in it with a 3" bellcrank like Ken discussed, and it's no longer a rickety mess. A couple of other areas to strengthen at no real additional cost will turn that Oriental into a remarkably nice plane that flies with the best of them. It flies great and looks extremely cool. It's worth all that to have one in your fleet.
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Help! Re: OK no more Stone woes...Nobler ARF help solicited

Post  Ken Cook on Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:42 pm

I kind of went off from one topic to the other, but Fred put the Morris setup in the Nobler. I personally would've used the Morris setup in a plane that was purposely built around them but to each is own.  The Oriental uses the 4" crank. Not a problem but one needs to know it makes the controls very slow. This made little sense to me as the kit version is supplied with the 3".  The ARF's though lack a lot . I'm guilty of doing equal mods but the reality is they don't fly better than the kits nor share the same longevity. The ARF's in my opinion really were a major setback for our club. They formed a lazy attitude and many are still putzing with them. I longed for the day the new birds were showing up at the field. They were appearing with a fairly regular frequency then the ARF's took over. I'm a big fan of the Oriental, I have owned a few of them. I have a brand new one unflown and 2 of them are left in the fleet. I recently tripped over my ARC  Oriental last season when I was servicing my heater breaking the rudder off. That really hurt. I just glued the rudder back on and never repaired the paint. I always opted for the ARC's due to the fact I could access the problem areas and fly more than 10 flights without worry of losing the covering.  I have posted many topics on the discussions of the Oriental since it's introduction on Stunthangar so I'm quite certain searching those threads would reveal many areas of concern.  The landing gear area is most problematic and it will detach the underside of the fuse if not properly constructed on it's first landing.
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Help! Re: OK no more Stone woes...Nobler ARF help solicited

Post  fredvon4 on Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:56 am

Ken I am not sure but I think you had mentioned the 4" BC problem before...this was an ARC and it has a 3" in it using Eric Rules new suspended BC hardware

Rubber band mock up has the Oriental needing 1.75 oz lead in the rear and that will only grow as I did not have the hardware or spinner or tongue muff taped up front

I still need to add the wide under stab fillets, and any graphics--- but even then, it will need a slug of lead

Thanks for the heads up
I am sure when we do these threads, later, others will see the opinions and hints.... good stuff for everybody
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Help! Re: OK no more Stone woes...Nobler ARF help solicited

Post  Ken Cook on Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:23 am

Fred, I found the need for the stab gussets on the ARF and ARC only. The top block of the kit offers enough footprint where the others are sheeted balsa around this area with the exception of the small block they have you glue onto the fuse. That block due to being covered and as small as it is with the covering returning underneath of it offers little to no glue area thus the need for triangular stock alongside of the fuse under the stab. My stab broke off during a contest. I was still able to fly it but it wasn't very pretty. I feel the cutaway covering that's required was also responsible for this failure. Ken
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Help! Re: OK no more Stone woes...Nobler ARF help solicited

Post  fredvon4 on Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:10 pm

In case it is lost in my new thread....I reviewed all the stunt hanger Oriental posts and that is where I saw Ken mention the kit was 3" and the ARF 4" BC that he does not like, and I agree why

Turns out the guy who built this ARC added Tome Morris controls...very good ---BUT he did use the 4" BC version...dang! now gotta drag out a large cable handle I don't like any more cuz I transitioned to hard point and love them

No real biggie...hack flyer and never gonna horse this flapped plane into all that it will do

Hey Ken... I put a Brodak tongue on the OS LA 40 and it does not have a pressure nipple yet...the tank is All Tubes forward uni 4oz... will I be ok without muff pressure

Previous owner used Brodak 40 and claims good upright vs inverted runs

BTW this is one of the engines I an concerned about the size of out let holes in the muff

Thoughts opinions?
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Help! Re: OK no more Stone woes...Nobler ARF help solicited

Post  Ken Cook on Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:28 pm

One can't answer your question with accuracy Fred. Reason is, every prop is different, while many have that plane, they weigh different. Your Oriental in my opinion is a bit heavy. I have seen Orientals though in the 50 oz. range due to repairs and oil soaking fly with ok maneuvers but in all honestly, the weight would be better 44 oz. and under. I built a beautiful Oriental with a MAX-S which finished out at 39 oz's. I gave it to a club member who flew it at the NATS 2 years ago and then he smashed the bejeezus out of it. I found that to be quite disturbing actually. That was the lightest Oriental I ever had. Honestly, while it was light it didn't do well in the wind as the others do. It's just that in my heart, I put a lot of work into making it that light and to see it go up in smoke due to a stupid mistake was heart wrenching.

A ATF tank needs to have some external plumbing. So, your either mounting hard pipe through your fuse or your going to need to add that nipple to put a muffler pressure line to the Uni pipe. No, you don't need or require muffler pressure. But, depending on the airframe, the stiffness of the front end, etc, you might have to explore many options to obtain a good engine run. I personally found muffler pressure to the uni works quite well. But, if it's a Brodak tank the uni could be in the tank incorrectly as they always love to do and you may need pressure to the overflow with the uni capped. If you choose to use muffler pressure to the uni, run a piece of tubing from the pressure nipple and put a loop into the tubing prior to it hooking to the uni. This will prevent siphoning after filling. You can slice the tubing and put a short piece of 1/8" pipe as a joiner just prior to the loop. This can offer you a spot to fill. Remember, you fill the tank through the uni pipe. ABSOLUTELY make certain your overflow is uncapped or you will flood the venturi instantly.


While the previous owner used a Brodak .40, this doesn't mean you will have the same success. The LA .40 has an identical footprint but the height of the spraybars are close but not identical. You must be certain the plane is flying level prior to making tank adjustments. When you say Brodak muffler, there are several. Brodak was receiving mufflers from Randy Smith and Big Art Adamissin. I prefer the Randy Smith versions. I use the Randy Smith versions and the reason I prefer them is due to the fact that the holes are properly spaced allowing for adjustability in regards to size. Try your muffler and find out what happens, if a few minutes into the flight it starts heating up and going lean, then begin to look deeper into it. Correct prop is essential I'm seeing a 3 blader there and already suggest to me too much load.


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