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A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  Ken Cook on Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:38 pm

I'm not certain if this is relevant, but I would keep the pitch higher than a 4 for the older engines. They like a load on them and a 4 pitch is a bit light. a 8x6 woodie is a good choice for the Mccoy's. You might get by using a 8x4 APC due to the wider blade area and prop weight. Roddie if you don't have a head gasket, you can substitute Ultra Copper in the head gasket channel. When assembling, don't tighten it down just bring it down until it squishes out and let it sit overnight. Tighten it the following day. This also raises the compression slightly. This can also work as a base gasket. It's best to lap the case slightly to ensure it's flat.
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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  GallopingGhostler on Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:00 pm

roddie wrote:Thanks George. Being reminded (by Ken) that the screws are 4-40 size, they'll be easier to find locally. If required; I'll trim any that are too long, using a cut-off wheel in the Dremel and de-burr with a fine metal-file. There's several good hardware stores near me. They stock 4-40 screws in a variety of head-configurations/materials/lengths.

You're welcome, Roddie. I've got a quality electrical "ChAMP" crimping tool (American made) by Amp, Inc. that was my father's in the late 1960's. It has a built in bolt cutter for 4-40, 6-32, 8-32, 10-32 and 10-24 sizes. (These are the most common for electrical work.) I just screw the bolt in the proper hole to the length I want, squeeze the handle and have a bolt trimmed to length.

The cheaper crimpers are not worth getting as they are made of softer metal and don't cut bolts as cleanly, or cut the first couple cleanly and due to wear, do a poorer job on the rest. They may work for crimping connectors, but not for bolt cutting. Doh!




roddie wrote:My "Perfect" stock #105 gasket-material states to be 1/64" thick. How does that compare to Chellie's "Fel-Pro" gasket material? 1/64" is .0156". I just checked my manila-folder stock.. and it measures just shy of .010". Maybe I could use the "folder-stock" for the back-plate gasket?

Shelly's Fel-Pro gasket material is a little thicker, but it IMO is of better quality. It is more pliable than the older paper gaskets and crushes when bolts are tightened. I haven't had any problems with her gaskets on my McCoy .35 RH's. Some time back she did a little explaining of her methodology, because this question has come up before.

One advantage to the newer technology is being able to fill minor scratches and imperfections in the engine's mating surfaces. This IMO provides a better seal. I've also used Permatex Ultra Gray RTV, which is the same stuff used for car transmission cases and pans. If mating surfaces can tolerate zero clearances, I've found it does a good job.

As usual, YMMV (your mileage may vary). Wink
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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  Ken Cook on Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:39 pm

Roddie, you can use Permatex for a backplate gasket. It works better anyhow. I have had a tube of Permatex 51817 Anaerobic for almost 6 years now. It costs $4 and comes in a tube about 1 1/2" long. It cures in the abscence of air and is designed for aluminum and alcohol immersion. It's red in color and looks like cake icing. It comes out in a very tiny bead perfect for mating a backplate. I've mentioned this many times. There's enough to last a lifetime in that little tube. I have used Ultra Copper for base gaskets and head gasket use. Not all Ultra versions are the same. George mentions the gray and I have never tried the gray. I will say that Ultra Black fails and I've seen Ultra Blue fail. If it fails you go to plan B and make a gasket. I might even have stock Mccoy .19 backplate gaskets, I will have to take a peek. I rarely use gasket due to them always failing and tearing if taken apart. This is a major pain in the rear with a Fox .35. The gasket absolutely is horrible. It becomes squished out and cut when the backplate tightens. This isn't the problem with a Mccoy, so I switched to using the anaerobic.
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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  Oldenginerod on Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:19 pm

Screws with the US type threads are not easily available here in Oz, so when I repaired my .35 RH I ordered a set from MECOA which suited the Series 21 Testors. They were identical. Pretty sure the gaskets are too.
I'm not a fan of cap screws (Allen head) on small engines because it's too easy to overtightene them.
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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  GallopingGhostler on Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:56 pm

Never thought of that, using the Series 21 screws to suit the Red Heads, good point. I've learned the hard way not to overtighten small screws and bolts. As an adolescent, I distorted a number of the die cast Cox .049 reed valve metal tank back plates, and broke a Tee Dee .020 plastic tank back with single screw holding it on.

A few of the engine experts mentioned (I think one was Peter Chinn) that overtightening as in the case of the older Fox's with above and below muffler mounting lugs could distort the cylinder portion of the crankcase. It is possible to break off the head of the screw or strip the aluminum crankcase threads. Then one is left with the difficult task of retrieving the broken stud or re-threading the hole with a larger tap and larger diameter screw. Then one may need an end tap to complete the threads at the bottom of the hole, if does not go all the way through. Plus, one may need to enlarge the hole in the head, backplate or crankcase nose so screw can pass.

I'm more familiar with the Permatex Ultra Gray RTV, because I used it to seal the head and covers on my motorcycles. Mechanics recommended Yamabond, a Yamaha RTV product. But it is not cheap and for me not readily available (special order). I gave Ultra a shot and worked for that application, so I tried it on model engines with same results.

It is ideal for hard covers like the cast engine backs, nose crankcase halves and heads. It is able to seal in the thinnest layer. When I use RTV, I usually slightly tighten but not torque down so I don't squeeze out all the RTV allowing a film. Allow it to cure for a day or two, then tighten.

I haven't tried the red, but others have recommended it so I gather it is a good alternative.
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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  roddie on Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:56 pm

Ok.. Given this advise; it would seem easiest (as well as best) to buy some Permatex Anearobic sealant to reassemble the engine. Apply a bead.. semi-tighten until the sealant skins-over.. then torque-down the screws in an even diagonal-sequence.. being mindful not to over-tighten; especially if substituting cap-screws. I can see how it would be possible to apply too much torque using a hex-key. I'm generally pretty careful when tightening engine-screws. I usually turn the screw "out" (CCW on r/h threads) with slight pressure.. until I feel the thread click-in.. to avoid cross-threading or "burring".. when assembling. I learned that practice early in life when installing spark-plugs. It became second-nature when assembling any threaded parts.

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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  Ken Cook on Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:44 pm

Roddie, I mentioned 2 types of gasket maker. Ultra Copper and the anaerobic 51817. Ultra products are all RTV. Anaerobic isn't and you assemble immediately upon applying. You don't wait to tighten. The anaerobic is great for backplate sealing and I use it exclusively on all of my Fox .35's. The reason I suggested to tighten at a later time was due to using the RTV for a head gasket and the groove is quite deep to immediately tighten. Mccoy .19 head gaskets are available on Ebay for $5.99 for 2. The 2 long screws that hold down the cylinder are 7/8" long. I wouldn't try and use 3/4" as you really need all you can get.
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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  roddie on Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:30 pm

Noted.. and thanks again Ken. I save most all of your tips to word-docs. I want to be sure that I can assemble an engine "leak-free". I'd love to bench-run this old McCoy RH .19 some day.. once I source the correct fuel for it.

There's been some discussion on "props" for this engine. I have some old "woodies" that seem to be quite obscure sizes. I have two 8 x 9's and a 9" of unknown pitch.



The 9" has the indentations on the hub; indicative of having been mounted on a McCoy engine's drive-plate. Possibly a .35

What would an 8 x 9 prop have been run on? I don't know where I got these.. and there's many more very old woodies in my stock. Most are "Rev-Up" props.



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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  RknRusty on Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:29 pm

That middle prop looks a little dubious, like it has a repaired crack.
I have an eclectic bunch of antique props too. Bob dumped a whole box full of ancient props into my flight box one day. I have not used any of them. His planes all fly with unusual looking propellers.

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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  GallopingGhostler on Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:16 am

roddie wrote:What would an 8 x 9 prop have been run on? I don't know where I got these.. and there's many more very old woodies in my stock. Most are "Rev-Up" props.

Don't have the .40 Red Head instructions, but for the McCoy .40 Series 21 Black Head specifies the 8x9 for speed. For comparison, McCoy .60 Red Head uses 9x12; .35 Red Head 7x10; .19 Red Head 6x9. I guess it is probably a speed prop for .40 - .45 engines of the day.
I imagine the Red Heads were probably short lived as speed engines. Cant Resist The Bunn
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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  getback on Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:16 am

Don't think i have 8x6 props but here are 3 Zingers (new) for $11 there a little thinner than the ole master air screw but didn't see any of those ... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Three-8-6-Propellers-3-J-Zinger-wood-All-the-same-length-8-in-8-6-/292077346597?hash=item44012a9f25:g:BbcAAOSwo4pYFKHE
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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  roddie on Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:06 pm

GallopingGhostler wrote:
roddie wrote:What would an 8 x 9 prop have been run on? I don't know where I got these.. and there's many more very old woodies in my stock. Most are "Rev-Up" props.

Don't have the .40 Red Head instructions, but for the McCoy .40 Series 21 Black Head specifies the 8x9 for speed. For comparison, McCoy .60 Red Head uses 9x12; .35 Red Head 7x10; .19 Red Head 6x9. I guess it is probably a speed prop for .40 - .45 engines of the day.
I imagine the Red Heads were probably short lived as speed engines. Cant Resist The Bunn

Thanks for commenting George! They're OLD props for sure. I have many.. and little-to-no history on them. Your info helps to place the 8 x 9's in a particular application. I haven't inventoried my props. That's something that would be useful; not so much for "me".. but maybe a fellow-modeler ISO a rare prop.
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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  roddie on Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:54 pm

getback wrote:Don't think i have 8x6 props but here are 3 Zingers (new) for $11 there a little thinner than the ole master air screw but didn't see any of those ...  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Three-8-6-Propellers-3-J-Zinger-wood-All-the-same-length-8-in-8-6-/292077346597?hash=item44012a9f25:g:BbcAAOSwo4pYFKHE

I like wooden-props Eric. I'm not sure why.. maybe it's an "old-school" modeling thing. I like how they look... which doesn't equate to efficiency in any way.. but if they run well on your engine and fly your airplane.. that's what counts in the end.

You might find the need to enlarge or bush the hub-hole to fit your engine's prop-screw/stud. I like to have a stock of alloy-tube bushings to reduce a hub-hole that's too big. Having a Machinist's drill-index is also VERY handy.. (a fractional/letter/number-drill index) If you don't already have one.. you'll wonder how you ever got along without one. You can buy a Machinist's index fairly cheap. The drills may not be high quality.. but they'll work fine for an occasional repair-job. I use mine quite often. It's also handy for gaging hole-sizes.
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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  GallopingGhostler on Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:08 pm

roddie wrote:I like wooden-props Eric. I'm not sure why.. maybe it's an "old-school" modeling thing. I like how they look... which doesn't equate to efficiency in any way.. but if they run well on your engine and fly your airplane.. that's what counts in the end.

Some engines are happier with the lighter inertia wood props. I had a bugger of time hand starting my Enya .09-III TV with Tatone Peacepipe muffler with plastic props. When I went to wood, it became a different animal, hand started easy on 2nd or 3rd flip, needle adjustment wasn't as fickle. OTOH, my McCoy's start easy with whatever prop, ditto with my OS Max FP's.

You might find the need to enlarge or bush the hub-hole to fit your engine's prop-screw/stud. I like to have a stock of alloy-tube bushings to reduce a hub-hole that's too big. Having a Machinist's drill-index is also VERY handy.. (a fractional/letter/number-drill index) If you don't already have one.. you'll wonder how you ever got along without one. You can buy a Machinist's index fairly cheap. The drills may not be high quality.. but they'll work fine for an occasional repair-job. I use mine quite often. It's also handy for gaging hole-sizes.

I've found that fuel line both silicone and nylon make good bushings to center a prop with too large a hole, select size according to need. Also, wiring insulation and small wire insulating sleeve works too. Sometimes a portion of inner or outer R/C "nyrod" flex pushrod tubing works.
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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  Cribbs74 on Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:01 am

I haven't had much luck with modern wooden props, they do look nice, but never seem to be very efficient. I also like the fact that they are a little more forgiving when you get whacked by one. I really wish they would come back with the wood EW bladed props. I have used some and enjoyed the performance. They are hard to find and one nick renders them useless.
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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  Marleysky on Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:41 pm

Cribbs74 wrote:I haven't had much luck with modern wooden props, they do look nice, but never seem to be very efficient. I also like the fact that they are a little more forgiving when you get whacked by one. I really wish they would come back with the wood EW bladed props. I have used some and enjoyed the performance. They are hard to find and one nick renders them useless.

Ok, I'm a Nubie here, whatcha mean by wood EW blade?? East/west? Electric weighted?
Ebony&White?  they must be sensitive if one nick ruins them.  I spent about 20 minutes scrounging thru some bins at a swap meet, bypassing most all the wood props as too large, all the old Top Flight as too dangerous and ended up with some Red, White and Blue "K"sun type props just for decorative purposes. So, for next time, what is EW?
Thanks.
Google to the rescue Earily Wooden props vs Modern Wood props, I think I found the answer right here: http://www.woodenpropeller.com/Propeller_Identification.html
Yahoo, for Google! Very Happy


Last edited by Marleysky on Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:54 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Answer)
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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  Ken Cook on Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:40 pm

I'm not quite certain about the definition of modern, but the new Vess and Xoar, RSM props are quite nice and have worked very good for me on my choices of engines modern and vintage. Ken
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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  GallopingGhostler on Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:14 pm

I find that with props, experimentation is in order. Just because a prop says it is the same size as a another doesn't necessarily mean it will perform the same. One may have to go up or down on pitch or diameter, to find the appropriate level of performance. Also, the effective airflow around the airframe and drag of the plane play a role, too. Numbers provided by manufacturers are a safe starting point, where one can experiment to find out what works for them.

I only use wood props where I find it paramount to engine performance, ditto with Cox competition props. Because they are more fragile than the plastics, I don't like to replace the prop because the aircraft flipped or dropped its nose on landing. At least with the plastics, a nick in the tip can be dressed with a file equally to both tips (if no other damage).

The old Top Flite white nylon with red silkcreening were my favorite half-A prop, along with Tornado. They were notoriously out of balance requiring sanding the back side of the blade for balance, but were reasonably durable for the reedies and they were reasonably cheap. (I remember when a 6x3 was like $0.25 each. I also remembered when a prop had gotten good life by the glow fuel erosion wiping off the pretty red silkcreen.  Wink )
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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  getback on Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:11 am

Well i just ordered the 8x6 Zingers when they get here i will get another run and reading to see what i have then. I like the woodies , heck when i crash there isn't a plastic that will hold up most time lol! Ken i looked at the props you mention and there too big but look nice , i may have missed it some where .
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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  getback on Thu May 18, 2017 10:28 am

I got the new RH props and there is a bit of difference in the mounting hole as you can see , the engine is in the shop so i don't know what ones will fit .  
What? If needed would you still use a reamed to size the to small hole or is there a better way??
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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  roddie on Fri May 19, 2017 9:08 pm

The TF props (smaller hub-hole) will need to be .250" which is the OD-size of my McCoy .19 Read-Head's prop-shaft. Personally, I would bore-out the hole using a drill-press with a few "incremental" drill-bit size-changes in the process. That's just how "I" would do it.. because I feel that there's less chance of the tool grabbing and walking off-center. Hubs that are drilled off-center would likely be out of balance.. and should be discarded IMO.

Those new props should prove to run better on your engine. The "Zingers" might already have the required 1/4" hub-hole. Check their balance, and try one of them first, if that's the case.

What's been your fuel-blend..? I don't have fuel for any of my vintage stunt-engines as of yet.. but hope to source some 10/25 all-castor fuel.. which should cover all the bases. I've never had the separate-components to custom-blend glow-fuel. After reading Mark Boesen's "Letters from Ted" thread.. Lot's of good tips there.
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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  getback on Fri May 19, 2017 9:41 pm

I put that i used 35% old Sig w/some Extra Castor oil added in the first frame but i think it was 15% with extra castor instead .. i am glad the props got here and look forward to running the results when i can ,,, things have been windy , rainy, and workie lately  lol! i am thinking the Akromaster will bee a good prospect for it ?!?! I have got to get my a$$ in gear soooooooon  as soon as i get caught up ( RIGHT ) Not !!! Airplane  cheers
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Re: A bumbling day with the McCoy 19

Post  GallopingGhostler on Fri May 19, 2017 11:12 pm

roddie wrote:The TF props (smaller hub-hole) will need to be .250" which is the OD-size of my McCoy .19 Read-Head's prop-shaft. Personally, I would bore-out the hole using a drill-press with a few "incremental" drill-bit size-changes in the process. That's just how "I" would do it.. because I feel that there's less chance of the tool grabbing and walking off-center. Hubs that are drilled off-center would likely be out of balance.. and should be discarded IMO.

I use a hand vise / chuck with my drill bits. It looks like a screw driver handle with a hand tightened drill chuck on it. I turn it by hand, which has more control. As you say, use smaller bits to ream hole bigger before upsizing drill bit. That way by hand I have more control.

What's been your fuel-blend..? I don't have fuel for any of my vintage stunt-engines as of yet.. but hope to source some 10/25 all-castor fuel.. which should cover all the bases. I've never had the separate-components to custom-blend glow-fuel. After reading Mark Boesen's "Letters from Ted" thread.. Lot's of good tips there.

25% all Castor will do. I've been putting a pint of Castor in a gallon of 15% R/C fuel with 16% Synth and 2% Castor, added Castor ups to 25% with 10% as Castor. So far, it's working for me. Difference in CL stunt and sport is engine runs slobbering rich in 4 cycle only breaking to 2 in stunts and last couple laps before tank runs out. If engine is low on compression, all Castor helps build a seal. Using Synth takes that away.

Personally, I don't advise people to follow what I do, but do what is comfortable to them. I just do what works for me, which might not work for others.
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