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Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

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Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  MauricioB on Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:27 am

Hello, a friend gave with this engine, it is a Norvel .061 Big Mig R / C.
Never use one.
Can you give me some opinion or answer to my questions? ... from now, thanks ...
1) Ideal mix fuel first gear. The handle indicates between 10 and 15% of nitro, but does not indicate oil values.
2) Benefits, from 1 to 10 that score would give.
3) Market value (buy sale) in US dollars (Used good state) and (New).
Thank you.



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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  1/2A Nut on Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:55 am

I have used the AME Norvel .061 RC  engine with 20% castor 30% nitro.
Gets a bit hot till fully broken in will take some rich runs at first.
Your 1/2A fuel will do just fine.


Here is a vid effort with the engine you may have seen this a while back.



Published on Aug 10, 2015

.061 AME Norvel on a Profi Tuned Pipe
Non SPI version with 150 deg exhaust timing
APC 4.2x4  2oz of bench running prior to first flight
96F / Best level pass 28.6k from a down wind dive.
12oz all up weight 5ch plane with flaps
88sq. in 28in span




Here is one fully broken in with mods to the engine hits best diving peak at 33k+:



Published on Aug 18, 2010

1/2A Sheet Wing Racer 10 5/8oz. w/ Norvel .061 AME 130 sq. in
Master Airscrew 5.5 x 4 cut down to 4.25"
Venturi opened up to .141" on bladder w/30% Nitro.

Build thread here:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/1-2-1-8-airplanes-70/9887253-qb-150-sheet-wing-racer-build.html



RC Plane


Last edited by 1/2A Nut on Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  Surfer_kris on Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:50 am

Hmm, that looks like a very early version. I have only seen the Steels engines with bare brass on the outside, plus it seems to have the early, colder, glow head. This will require a little more power than what you get from an average 1.2V NiMh driver.

Other than that there isn't much to say. If it is tight, then pre-heat the cylinder for the first few runs. You can use 25% all castor for the running while 20% all castor is fine too. I only use mine on 10% nitro, that works well enough I think. One thing to look out for is the crank to crankcase fit. They can bee a little tight but will wear in during the running period. If you want you can speed that up by lapping the crank to the case, just be very careful with cleaning it afterwards.

You might want to check the throttle barrel position. The throttle lever usually points downwards, so it might have been altered by the previous owner. Just check that it opens fully, or adjust it if needed.

A 5x3 prop is good for running in and a springstarter is also very useful. The Norvel springstarters are very good and they also fit the TD .049 engines.

Here is a little "timeline" (from left to right) of the Steels and Norvel engines. Yours would possibly fit in as second from the left? :

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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  MauricioB on Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:17 am

1/2A Nut wrote:I have used the AME Norvel .061 RC  engine with 20% castor 30% nitro.
Gets a bit hot till fully broken in will take some rich runs at first.
Your 1/2A fuel will do just fine.


Here is a vid effort with the engine you may have seen this a while back.



Published on Aug 10, 2015

.061 AME Norvel on a Profi Tuned Pipe
Non SPI version with 150 deg exhaust timing
APC 4.2x4  2oz of bench running prior to first flight
96F / Best level pass 28.6k from a down wind dive.
12oz all up weight 5ch plane with flaps
88sq. in 28in span




Here is one fully broken in with mods to the engine hits best peak at 33k+:



Published on Aug 18, 2010

1/2A Sheet Wing Racer 10 5/8oz. w/ Norvel .061 AME 130 sq. in
Master Airscrew 5.5 x 4 cut down to 4.25"
Venturi opened up to .141" on bladder w/30% Nitro.

Build thread here:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/1-2-1-8-airplanes-70/9887253-qb-150-sheet-wing-racer-build.html



RC Plane

Thanks 1 / 2A Nut for all the material, it is very useful to me!
I'm glad to hear that you're doing well!
Regards!
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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  MauricioB on Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:21 am

Surfer_kris wrote:Hmm, that looks like a very early version. I have only seen the Steels engines with bare brass on the outside, plus it seems to have the early, colder, glow head. This will require a little more power than what you get from an average 1.2V NiMh driver.

Other than that there isn't much to say. If it is tight, then pre-heat the cylinder for the first few runs. You can use 25% all castor for the running while 20% all castor is fine too. I only use mine on 10% nitro, that works well enough I think. One thing to look out for is the crank to crankcase fit. They can bee a little tight but will wear in during the running period. If you want you can speed that up by lapping the crank to the case, just be very careful with cleaning it afterwards.

You might want to check the throttle barrel position. The throttle lever usually points downwards, so it might have been altered by the previous owner. Just check that it opens fully, or adjust it if needed.

A 5x3 prop is good for running in and a springstarter is also very useful. The Norvel springstarters are very good and they also fit the TD .049 engines.

Here is a little "timeline" (from left to right) of the Steels and Norvel engines. Yours would possibly fit in as second from the left? :


Thanks for all this information, if it is true, also notice the cam of the accelerator up position, and modify it and place it down.
I'm going to put a 5x3 as you tell me.
20% Ricino + 5% Nitro and rest methanol, will be good mixture for the beginning ??
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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  balogh on Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:00 pm

Hi Mauricio,

because of my bitter experience with a new NV Big Mig 061 R/C (dead-on-arrival compression when new...then I mounted a  replacement cylinder/piston set on it and that was fine)  I would not call myself a Norvel fan - in an understatement-, but for the sake of refreshing my experience and to share it with you, I just mounted and bench- ran the engine and here is my evaluation:



1. on a 60/20/20 fuel blend and with my reference - and favorite - 5x4 black prop of COX Int'l (see on the pic above) I now tached 19,200 rpm. The needle valve sweet-spot is at 1 3/4 turns open.

Interesting to note is that any of my COX TD 049/51 engines will happily spin the same prop under the same conditions (though un-muffled) at near 21k, and unload around 24k in the air...so I am not convinced on the output advantage of the NV 061 over the 049/051 TD-s, but I know many CEF members will have a different experience...true, that my TD-s usually are un-muffled while the NV had its stock muffler on it today, at the compromise of probably a few hundred rpm-s..

2. Its fuel economy is at least 20% better than that of the TD 049/051, because of the more advanced by-pass porting and single exhaust port (as opposed to the mass-produced TD-s) that allows less air/fuel mixture loss when scavanging the cylinder

3. Its muffler is very good and really keeps the noise down. Much better than any COX muffler, and also diverts the castor-laden gases away efficiently, keeping the engine and its environment less messy than COX.

4. Its R/C carb is excellent, I was lucky not to have had any carb-to-crankcase fitting issues with it. It is a better carb than that of the TD 050RC, smoother rpm control and idle, etc...

5. Longevity....I have another,  older version 049 NV, see on the right of the photo (not with Revlite cylinder and piston) whose manual states the engine life is "not less than 6 hours" (!!!!!)...and then I refer to my old 051 TD with already near 300 hours runtime on it, still performing. The same life expectancy statement is missing from the manual of the 061 Revlite NV, and I have not run mine for more than a few hours (mainly on bench), so other NV users here may add their experience on the Revlite life expectancy

6. I second to the suggestion of Kris above: do not even think of following the manual on engine breaking-in suggestions. It says you should first spin the engine with an electric starter with oil put in the cylinder, before you start it up on fuel....Instead, heat the cylinder of the new NV up with a simple hairdryer immediately before you start it on the bench, and you will save its compression and pinch on the TDC.

So all in all, except for its output and expected longevity (??), the NV fairs better than the COX...so why do I still use TD-s instead? Simple...because they all are predictable, dependable, accurately mass-produced, flawless and long-lasting COX engines with a lot of sweet history behind them...(am I too subjective? Who cares? Very Happy ...)

Hope to have provided the itemized - though probably not totally un-biased - comparison you were looking for.
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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  Surfer_kris on Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:33 pm

I'm sorry for you bad experience, but it sounds like you had an NV engine and not one of the original Norvel engines?
(I once bought a cylinder piston set from NV and it was useless... They had the tapering of the cylinder all wrong.)
One of your engines also seem to have the colder glow-plug. You want to have the ones that are round/spherical at the very top of the connector. Here I suspect that NV are selling off an old-stock of the colder ones...

Regarding the cox 5x4 prop one has to be a little bit careful when comparing rpm numbers. The original cox ones where indeed 5" in diameter while the newer ones are less than that (around 4.7" if I remember correctly). Both version are also too soft and the blades will start to deform around 20krpm, and the pitch cannot be trusted after that.

APC props are a better "standard" for measurements of performance I think. Here are a few numbers on stock engines with their stock mufflers (running 20% all castor and 10% nitro) :

Norvel .049 RC, re-revlite, APC 4.75x4: 20500rpm
Norvel .061 RC, APC 4.75x4: 22000rpm, APC 5x3: 23000rpm

If you want to have some serious power from a .061RC engines, then try the Mp Jet .061. These will easily out-power the Norvel engines at revs in the 20-21000rpm range.

Each engines have their own merits, lest not turn it into a competition, I think that is it more about finding the most suitable engine in a given plane and flying style.
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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  balogh on Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:47 pm

Thanks, Kris, especially the advice on the props. My Revlite engine came from the US distributor direct, so I suppose this should be basically the same as most CEF members use happily..The older 049 was bought on ebay and never started up as yet.

I agree, I am a recreational R/C flier and do not give too much attention to competition features like fuel economy, noise level, smooth rpm control and idle...I value the sheer, brute performance and dependable, long life of the COX engines over the sophistication of state of the art 1/2A size contemporary engines...let alone my heavily biased nostalgia for the COX brand.. Very Happy
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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  gcb on Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:39 am

My first NORVEL (Northern Velocity) engines came from a guy in Ohio. The muffler exhaust was straight back and the plug was the older (cooler) type. Apparently they had just released the newer (Freedom) plug. In addition to being a hotter plug, the top also fits most glow drivers. They had included a Freedom plug in the box.

I had gotten a CL and RC version in both the .049 and .061 The cylinders were like yours,  chromed with a high silicon aluminum piston. The size is indicated by an ink marking .8cc=.049ci, 1.0cc=.061ci. First time you run it the ink will come off. I scratched the size on mine with an X-Acto.

These type cylinders became known as pre-Revlite when NORVEL released their hard-anodized Aluminum Oxide Revlite cylinders.

The Big Mig engine is not as powerful as the AME. Many found the best prop for the .061 was either the APC 6x2 or 5.5x3.

Good luck with it,
George


Top plug is Freedom Plug.



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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  gcb on Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:04 pm

gcb wrote:My first NORVEL (Northern Velocity) engines came from a guy in Ohio. The muffler exhaust was straight back and the plug was the older (cooler) type. Apparently they had just released the newer (Freedom) plug. In addition to being a hotter plug, the top also fits most glow drivers. They had included a Freedom plug in the box.

I had gotten a CL and RC version in both the .049 and .061 The cylinders were like yours,  chromed with a high silicon aluminum piston. The size is indicated by an ink marking .8cc=.049ci, 1.0cc=.061ci. First time you run it the ink will come off. I scratched the size on mine with an X-Acto.

These type cylinders became known as pre-Revlite when NORVEL released their hard-anodized Aluminum Oxide Revlite cylinders.

The Big Mig engine is not as powerful as the AME. Many found the best prop for the .061 was either the APC 6x2 or 5.5x3.

Good luck with it,
George


Top plug is Freedom Plug.





Early versions of the AME and Big Migs had trouble drawing fuel on large props because of the large intake size. They needed smaller props to maintain intake velocity. Later versions include a muffler pressure tap so you can pressurize the tank.

George
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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  MauricioB on Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:45 am

Here I found that talk we had long ago.
I will wait for my engines and share my experience here.
I was reading in the Norvel forum itself and the comments are good ... what will have happened with your András engine? ... will it be something common or an isolated event?
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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  MauricioB on Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:51 am

Within the comments that users make on the Norvel page itself, I found this from RknRusty , will it be the same RknRusty that exists in this forum? Huh... ... is a very positive comment about the qualities of the engine ...

RknRusty (Thursday, 14 March 2013)
Rating: 5
The Big Mig .061 has replaced the Cox Tee Dee .049/.051 on some of my CL planes. Though the Tee Dee is a great dependable performer, the Big Mig .061
will blow its doors off. And even with the added power the NV gets Much better fuel economy. With an ounce of fuel a Big Mig will still be in the air
long after the Tee Dee has landed. Even with a muffler you can prop it for as much power as you'll ever need for a 1/2A plane. They continue to get
faster the more you fly them. My oldest Big Mig turns 28,800 RPM with a 5" prop. The recommended 6" prop doesn't do this engine justice.
It's happiest really unwinding with a smaller prop.rnRusty
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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  MauricioB on Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:00 am

Here is a video of Rusty K, where it seems to be a Norvel of the last generation, I hope that Rusty sees these comments and can contribute his point of view and experience ...

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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  1/2A Nut on Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:11 am

16,795 rpm at the end of that vid, what was he using a 5x4 prop?


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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  Surfer_kris on Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:20 am

MauricioB wrote:Here I found that talk we had long ago.
I will wait for my engines and share my experience here.
I was reading in the Norvel forum itself and the comments are good ... what will have happened with your András engine? ... will it be something common or an isolated event?

My guess is that there is a bad batch of cylinders. Perhaps a new production run that went wrong. I bought a replacement set from NV and that one had the same problem as Andras reports on. In my view they messed up the taper of the cylinder, it is way too aggressive. The piston then leaks around the closing/opening of the exhaust port, while still being squeaky tight around TDC.

If you have bought a complete engine, you'll hopefully get one from the old stock and all will be fine.
Here are some typical numbers from the .061 RC engine (stock muffler, 10% nitro and 20% all castor fuel):

APC 5x3 : 23000rpm
APC 4.75x4 : 22000rpm
APC 5.7x3 : 19200rpm
Graupner 6x3 : 18200rpm
Cox 5x4 : 20500rpm

The Cox 5x4 prop is too soft though, it will deform in the air...

If you are after top performance in a .061 RC engine I would recommend the MP jet .061 RC, it will do +20000rpm on the APC 5.7x3 prop. Smile
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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  MauricioB on Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:19 am

Surfer_kris wrote:
MauricioB wrote:Here I found that talk we had long ago.
I will wait for my engines and share my experience here.
I was reading in the Norvel forum itself and the comments are good ... what will have happened with your András engine? ... will it be something common or an isolated event?

My guess is that there is a bad batch of cylinders. Perhaps a new production run that went wrong. I bought a replacement set from NV and that one had the same problem as Andras reports on. In my view they messed up the taper of the cylinder, it is way too aggressive. The piston then leaks around the closing/opening of the exhaust port, while still being squeaky tight around TDC.

If you have bought a complete engine, you'll hopefully get one from the old stock and all will be fine.
Here are some typical numbers from the .061 RC engine (stock muffler, 10% nitro and 20% all castor fuel):

APC 5x3      : 23000rpm
APC 4.75x4  :    22000rpm
APC 5.7x3   : 19200rpm
Graupner 6x3 :  18200rpm
Cox 5x4 : 20500rpm

The Cox 5x4 prop is too soft though, it will deform in the air...

If you are after top performance in a .061 RC engine I would recommend the MP jet .061 RC, it will do +20000rpm on the APC 5.7x3 prop. Smile

Here I asked:
http://www.nvengines.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=24&category_id=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=65

Is there any way to control it before going on the road for the first time?
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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  MauricioB on Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:56 am

Here are the ones I received!!.
The engines arrived each with their box. They look very good, I like them !.
Also as an additional I ordered accessories.
I am very happy to start one of them, as soon as I have time I will do it and I will share with you the news!


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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  fit90 on Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:51 pm

Mauricio,

Those are pretty looking engines. If you want to use a 5x3 prop you might want to try taking an APC 5.7x3 and cutting it down to a 5x3. I have had very good luck doing this. The cut down 5x3 has given me noticeably higher RPM than the standard 5x3. I use Sig Champion 25% and a Merlin insert style plug. Good luck with your engines and enjoy!

Bob
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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  akjgardner on Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:21 pm

Maurico, I have several of these little Gems, I run mine on cox 35% . good luck with yours.If you ever get the chance to pick up a .074. do it , they are great runners too
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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  MauricioB on Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:06 am

fit90 wrote:Mauricio,

Those are pretty looking engines. If you want to use a 5x3 prop you might want to try taking an APC 5.7x3 and cutting it down to a 5x3. I have had very good luck doing this. The cut down 5x3 has given me noticeably higher RPM than the standard 5x3. I use Sig Champion 25% and a Merlin insert style plug.  Good luck with your engines and enjoy!

Bob

Thank you very much for the information and wishes ... I have started one of them and I am very happy with the results!
Greetings to you!
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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  MauricioB on Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:07 am

akjgardner wrote:Maurico, I have several of these little Gems, I run mine on cox 35% . good luck with yours.If you ever get the chance to pick up a .074. do it , they are great runners too

Thank you very much for leaving me your message and advice, I will keep it in mind, big hug!
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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  MauricioB on Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:37 am

Well, here in the video you can see my experience with Norvel .061.
Follow the instructions and respect all the steps indicated by the manufacturer.
I noticed that it really has a big pinch on top, so you should take the time to do the procedure seriously to avoid irreparable damage.
Help me also with a hot air gun to expand the cylinder and make the task easier.
It is a great engine, its carburetor is very clean, works progressively reliably in different positions.
An important fact is that there are practically no vibrations, it is a very smooth engine in low, medium and high.
The cylinder and cooling fins oversized, perform the function of cooling very effectively, I can touch the cylinder seconds after having stopped and start practically without rest.
This engine is another small wonder of our beloved pastime.

Note: Andras, I want to tell you that in my case the results are very different from the results you have obtained. Given the results obtained, I only have words in favor of this engine. I'm sorry for your bad experience.

I hope you enjoy the videos, which, for reasons of minutes allowed on youtube, I had to edit them and reduce them to be able to do them minimally in two parts.




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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  1/2A Nut on Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:06 am

Well done my friend what plane will get the honor of flying with your Norvel engine?


Popcorn RC Plane Popcorn
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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  1/2A Nut on Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:28 am



AmpAbuser / 1/2A Nut
Published on Aug 13, 2015

Reads from 23.5k  average to best 23,740 rpm using a audio tach.
16oz thrust / 68 mph pitch speed / .18 HP / 134w
4.8k - 5.2k idle noted after the review with audio app settings dialed in for lower readings.
5.3oz of fuel ran through this new old stock engine for break in time so far.
25% nitro 20% castor. Flew with a APC 4.2x4 ran well on the pipe 28.6k rpm best pass.



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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

Post  balogh on Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:38 am

Congratulations Mauricio. I am happy mine is an isolated case of failure and frustration. With the replacement cylinder and piston mine also works well but other than the RC carb I do not see my Big Mig outperform my TD049/51 engines that spin the same prop faster.
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Re: Norvel BIG MIG .061 R/C ¿?

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