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Post  roddie on Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:16 pm

I'm guilty again.. of not following through. I did however; resurrect a previously-designed model, design and build another one.. and actually start the finishing-process on both.. while also designing/building a non-contest 1/2A U-control P38 Lightning.

I had high-hopes of competing this time with my unflown 2013/14 contest Rear-Bear model, an unfinished/resurrected 2015/16 contest T33-Dee model.. and the tiny newly-designed Flying-Blind made completely of basswood.

I feel pretty bad that I didn't compete. The Rare Bear in particular.. could have been flight-ready in short-order.

It's also embarrassing to again; "commit" oneself to a contest.. and not compete. The day that I post any type of "flight-video" here on CEF.. will be considered a small miracle.





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Post  stuntguy13 on Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:06 pm

Roddie,
I am new to this forum and am very interested in the various events introduced here. Could you post an update on the rules for the reed speed events.


Thanks, DennisT
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Cox Engine Forum Speed Contest 2018!!! - Page 6 Empty 1/2A Speed Hell Razor

Post  JetDriver1946 on Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:50 am

I just joined the website. Never knew it existed. Some of you may know me. I own SouthEast Model Products. I'm in Orlando, Fl. It's been a while but I produced several Ducted Fan Jet kits originally designed by Nick Ziroli. F-4 Phantom, and F-15. I also developed and produced the World smallest air operated retracts. In 1959 I competed at the Nationals in Los Alamitos Ca. Navel Air Base, in 1/2A speed, with a model I designed called the Hell Razor. It used the Cox T-DEE 049, and a Magnesium Pan. Does anybody remember it? I tried to get information from the records at the AMA, but was told that they had a fire ( Early 70's ) and a lot of information was lost. I joined the AMA when I was 7 y/o, in the 1950's.


Last edited by JetDriver1946 on Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  modelbuilder49 on Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:23 am

JetDriver1946 wrote:I just joined the website. Never knew it existed. Some of you may know me. I own SouthEast Model Products. I'm in Orlando, Fl. It's been a while but I produced several Ducted Fan Jet kits originally designed bu Nick Ziroli. F-4 Phantom, and F-15. I also developed and produced the World smallest air operated retracts. In 1959 I competed at the Nationals in Los Alamitos Ca. Navel Air Base, in 1/2A speed, with a model I designed called the Hell Razor. It used the Cox T-DEE 049, and a Magnesium Pan. Does anybody remember it? I tried to get information from the records at the AMA, but was told that they had a fire ( Early 70's ) and a lot of information was lost. I joined the AMA when I was 7 y/o, in the 1950's.  

Good morning Jet Driver! Allow me to start by saying, "Welcome"! I live in Titusville, FL where I and my friends generally fly on Saturday mornings from about 0800 to noon as the Good Lord allows! It would be great to meet and fly with you some day soon.
I've heard of the Hell Razor but the one I had was larger than 1/2A. I would like to know if this is the basic design you're speaking of: Cox Engine Forum Speed Contest 2018!!! - Page 6 2A+speed+model+called+the+Hell+Razor
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Post  JetDriver1946 on Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:11 am

It probably is. I did the design in 1/2A because I couldn't afford any of the 40 size speed engines. But there were 3 sizes in the Mag Pan. 40 size was the biggest. I got a whole $50 for the design. It was originally made by Midwest Model Supply. NOT Midwest Model's. that was owned by Frank Archer. BTW, he was the only that invested $10,000 at the original 30 guys that got RC World started in the early 80's. The Hell Razor got built is all 3 sizes, it also got changed. When I flew the plane at the Nationals, the fuel I used was Nitro XX. If I had another 5% of nitro, 45% was max by the rules. That would have been interesting to see the results. I also used a Mono control line. I built the whole model at a hobby shop in St Louis Mo, and was helped by a guy named Al Sellenberg. He could be alive today, he would be in his early 80's. Are you flying at the field right off I-95 and HY-50 ? I been there several times.

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Post  fredvon4 on Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:43 pm

Stuntguy13

Your question and post is lost....but no worries...open any forum page and play around with ALL the links on the left side of the main page...seriously there is a bunch of great stuff about traveling engines, contests, Cox engines, and fuel recipes all sorts of good stuff

Then...any time you are needing more info, or specific info, START a topic is best way.....tagging on bottom of an old thread MIGHT work but not every body sees new posts.... I know Roddie is on every day...but his lack of answer means he missed this question of yours
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Post  JetDriver1946 on Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:49 pm

This was the POST. I didn't see it lost. It's still there as far as I know.

It probably is. I did the design in 1/2A because I couldn't afford any of the 40 size speed engines. But there were 3 sizes in the Mag Pan. 40 size was the biggest. I got a whole $50 for the design. It was originally made by Midwest Model Supply. NOT Midwest Model's. that was owned by Frank Archer. BTW, he was the only that invested $10,000 at the original 30 guys that got RC World started in the early 80's. The Hell Razor got built is all 3 sizes, it also got changed. When I flew the plane at the Nationals, the fuel I used was Nitro XX. If I had another 5% of nitro, 45% was max by the rules. That would have been interesting to see the results. I also used a Mono control line. I built the whole model at a hobby shop in St Louis Mo, and was helped by a guy named Al Sellenberg. He could be alive today, he would be in his early 80's. Are you flying at the field right off I-95 and HY-50 ? I been there several times.
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Post  Ken Cook on Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:16 pm

I have the 1/2 A Hell Razor kit. I've been meaning to build it for some time now. I wouldn't power it with the engines recommended.
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Post  GallopingGhostler on Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:39 pm

Ken Cook wrote:I have the 1/2 A Hell Razor kit. I've been meaning to build it for some time now. I wouldn't power it with the engines recommended.
Ken, are you referring to this one?

Outerzone Plan #462, 10in Fong Consolidated Hell Razor 1/2A CL Racer
Cox Engine Forum Speed Contest 2018!!! - Page 6 46210
Hell Razor Plan wrote:Recommended Engines: Cub .039 - .049 - .074, Wasp .049, Spitfire .045, Royal Spitfire .065
IMO, at only 10 inches (255 mm), that would be a handful even with a .020 reed valve Pee Wee.


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Post  Ken Cook on Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:50 pm

That would be the one. It's a small plane but nicely streamlined. I don't recall my plans showing that engine on outlined on the print. If I recall, mine shows something like a Atwood Shriek which I do own and have contemplated at least trying it. It's just that locating glow heads for it are slim.
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Post  JetDriver1946 on Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:35 pm

The one I designed, used mono control line it also had a V tail with the elevator on the right side just like the one in the pic. Also mine didn't have the exhaust faring on the rear of the engine. I built it both ways with and without. Didn't see any difference back then. The worst part was finishing the balsa wood. I covered it with real lite silk, and Aerogloss dope, primer, and paint. I wet sanded the primer, each time I primmer'ed it. It's been a long time since I did it, and I have forgot a lot of the details. I also used a rubber bladder fuel tank.
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Post  modelbuilder49 on Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:18 pm

JetDriver1946 wrote:It probably is. I did the design in 1/2A because I couldn't afford any of the 40 size speed engines. But there were 3 sizes in the Mag Pan. 40 size was the biggest. I got a whole $50 for the design. It was originally made by Midwest Model Supply. NOT Midwest Model's. that was owned by Frank Archer. BTW, he was the only that invested $10,000 at the original 30 guys that got RC World started in the early 80's. The Hell Razor got built is all 3 sizes, it also got changed. When I flew the plane at the Nationals, the fuel I used was Nitro XX. If I had another 5% of nitro, 45% was max by the rules. That would have been interesting to see the results. I also used a Mono control line. I built the whole model at a hobby shop in St Louis Mo, and was helped by a guy named Al Sellenberg. He could be alive today, he would be in his early 80's. Are you flying at the field right off I-95 and HY-50 ? I been there several times.

Interesting info!  For years, I've been toying with the idea of building a 1/2A speed but, I keep finding another projects that tweak my interest and keep the 1/2A speed on the back burner.  For example, when I first found this site they were having the Cox Engine Speed Contest so, I ended up building three planes a Black Widow powered ME-163, an .020 powered profile Rivets and a Tee Dee .051 powered profile Gee Bee. This year, they held the same event and I reentered the ME-163 and it seems like everybody else took mercy on me and I won (either it was mercy or they all were probably laughing so hard at my video that they forgot to fly their own planes Laughing Laughing ).

I'm a 20 year member of that club also, the Moonport Modelers R/C Club, but if I choose to fly my control liners, I do it in the late afternoon when no r/cers are there.  Other than that, our control line group, North Brevard Figure 9er's, regularly flies on Saturday mornings from around 0800 to 1100/noonish, at a place in here in town called the Gibson Recreation Center on Sycamore Street.  Usually there's about 6 to 9 of us sharing a field where we can setup three circles if need be.  I know the guys would love to meet you.  Just be prepared for a bunch of laughing, good "clean" joking and wise cracking and tales of "Day's Long Gone" (or "never were" depending on who's telling the yarn!! Laughing Laughing Feel free to drop me a pm and we can exchange phone numbers and "chew 'da fat" awhile!!

Jim Carter
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Post  roddie on Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:26 pm

stuntguy13 wrote:Roddie,
I am new to this forum and am very interested in the various events introduced here. Could you post an update on the rules for the  reed speed  events.


Thanks,   DennisT

Hi Dennis, I apologize for the late reply. Here is a link to the latest speed-contest rules.. but I'm afraid that the contest may not happen again unless there's renewed interest in the way of both; participation and direction. It can be challenging for international participants to be able to get a qualifying flight (and a video as proof..) submitted by a designated deadline.

The link below is actually "this" thread.. but will "load" on page 1... which is where the latest revision of rules is written.

https://www.coxengineforum.com/t11255-cox-engine-forum-speed-contest-2018

This 2nd link below, covers "discussion" of the 1st CEF "Reed Speed" Contest of five years ago. There's a lot of enjoyable material in that thread..

https://www.coxengineforum.com/t5910-cef-speed-contest-design-discussions?highlight=speed
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Post  Ken Cook on Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:30 pm

For this to be successful, my vote is fly whatever you have and make a video. One video I believe was submitted last time around. Forget the one wheel vs two , put 10 of them on the plane if you desire. Our club elected to have the same upright and inverted speed contest started at Brodak's this year. The rules were somewhat similar but then it went over the top with you can't do this, you can't do that. I quickly checked out as it was no longer appealing to me.  Just keep it simple, Cox engine. This seems to get over complicated with wingspan, style of plane, sq " of wings. Another myth is that a bladder is going to make the engine run faster. That doesn't happen. If your running a reedie on suction vs bladder, the run is identical. A TD allows you to open the venturi, but it can only be opened so much before your ruing it which is 5/32". So keep it at stock venturi. Fuel should be unlimited, use whatever you have. The engines only go so fast and with the rising costs of high nitro fuel, this caps most of us off at the standard 35% nitro.   Fly the planes and post the videos. Maybe we might see some more flying.
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Post  roddie on Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:50 pm

Ken makes some very valid points in my opinion. Contests require rules/criteria which can actually discourage some prospective modelers from participating.  

Why not have an open-event.. and call it an "exhibition"??? We could have a thread for Cox/aero "control-line open-speed" and perhaps another thread for non-Cox/aero "control-line open-speed"; the latter for modelers wishing to run any other aero model-engine. These suggestions focus primarily on tethered control-line aero-modelling activity.. but other events/exhibitions could certainly follow suit; such as tethered terra-firma and marine speed-models.

Maybe this approach might take some pressure off?? What do you think? When a forum thread is created, it's really important for it to be easily recalled in a topic-search.. therefore; correctly-titling multiple-threads having similar subject-matter is essential. A discussion-thread is "just that". A build-thread is always best as an "individual-post".. having a title which is traceable to the event/exhibition.. if applicable.

Event/exhibition VIDEOS should have a separate thread just for uploading the video... and be titled as such.

Any thoughts?
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Post  Oldenginerod on Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:19 pm

Ken Cook wrote:For this to be successful, my vote is fly whatever you have and make a video. One video I believe was submitted last time around. Forget the one wheel vs two , put 10 of them on the plane if you desire. Our club elected to have the same upright and inverted speed contest started at Brodak's this year. The rules were somewhat similar but then it went over the top with you can't do this, you can't do that. I quickly checked out as it was no longer appealing to me.  Just keep it simple, Cox engine. This seems to get over complicated with wingspan, style of plane, sq " of wings. Another myth is that a bladder is going to make the engine run faster. That doesn't happen. If your running a reedie on suction vs bladder, the run is identical. A TD allows you to open the venturi, but it can only be opened so much before your ruing it which is 5/32". So keep it at stock venturi. Fuel should be unlimited, use whatever you have. The engines only go so fast and with the rising costs of high nitro fuel, this caps most of us off at the standard 35% nitro.    Fly the planes and post the videos. Maybe we might see some more flying.

Couldn't agree more.  This event was proposed 11 months ago.  Fred very generously offered prizes for 1st, 2nd & 3rd 11 months ago. Original rules that were set out are simple.  The way I read them, airframe of wood, at least two wheels at least 2" apart on wire, exposed controls and Cox .049/.051 engine.  Two classes, reed and rotary.  End of story.  Lets do this.  As Ken said, just fly something.  If it breaks the rules, at least we got to watch someone fly something.  Our sponsor (Fred) can decide who qualifies for the prizes since he's providing them.  You guys Stateside are going to end up running out of good flying weather if you keep procrastinating.  Maybe put a deadline of December 31st.  If we don't have at lease three videos by then, call the whole thing off, delete the conversation and move on.  I mention three entries minimum as this is what Fred has offered in prizes.  Heck, maybe he's given up on us and withdrawn his generous offer.  I wouldn't blame him.

Rod.
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Post  Ken Cook on Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:58 pm

I saw this thread re open and it's always held my interest. Currently, I have 3 planes built that I can't legally fly in the contests I have contended. Why, well one has too large of a tank, the other doesn't have a racing cockpit, the other doesn't have two wheels. Realistically, I have 4, and one flies quite well in terms of speed. I'm limited to where I can fly these which is discouraging as it doesn't allow me to do enough tinkering with it.

          Next month ( fingers crossed) I attend a fun fly which has 3 asphalt circles making this a prime testing ground. Speed flying is far more challenging than stunt in terms of achieving a good run. Tanks need to be custom designed to feed properly and this is more of a pain in the rear than all other aspects.

     Bladder pressure is far easier than tanks. This has been eliminated from the other contests and I feel it shouldn't of  been. Unless a fairing is executed on the plane, the bladder tube unless concealed by the wing is a huge drag factor hanging on the fuse.

         To thoroughly enjoy this, one needs to keep in mind the line length. I feel it's fair enough to suggest 35' for reedies and 42' for TD's.
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Post  Oldenginerod on Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:50 pm

Oldenginerod wrote:
Ken Cook wrote:For this to be successful, my vote is fly whatever you have and make a video. One video I believe was submitted last time around. Forget the one wheel vs two , put 10 of them on the plane if you desire. Our club elected to have the same upright and inverted speed contest started at Brodak's this year. The rules were somewhat similar but then it went over the top with you can't do this, you can't do that. I quickly checked out as it was no longer appealing to me.  Just keep it simple, Cox engine. This seems to get over complicated with wingspan, style of plane, sq " of wings. Another myth is that a bladder is going to make the engine run faster. That doesn't happen. If your running a reedie on suction vs bladder, the run is identical. A TD allows you to open the venturi, but it can only be opened so much before your ruing it which is 5/32". So keep it at stock venturi. Fuel should be unlimited, use whatever you have. The engines only go so fast and with the rising costs of high nitro fuel, this caps most of us off at the standard 35% nitro.    Fly the planes and post the videos. Maybe we might see some more flying.

Couldn't agree more.  This event was proposed 11 months ago.  Fred very generously offered prizes for 1st, 2nd & 3rd 11 months ago. Original rules that were set out are simple.  The way I read them, airframe of wood, at least two wheels at least 2" apart on wire, exposed controls and Cox .049/.051 engine.  Two classes, reed and rotary.  End of story.  Lets do this.  As Ken said, just fly something.  If it breaks the rules, at least we got to watch someone fly something.  Our sponsor (Fred) can decide who qualifies for the prizes since he's providing them.  You guys Stateside are going to end up running out of good flying weather if you keep procrastinating.  Maybe put a deadline of December 31st.  If we don't have at lease three videos by then, call the whole thing off, delete the conversation and move on.  I mention three entries minimum as this is what Fred has offered in prizes.  Heck, maybe he's given up on us and withdrawn his generous offer.  I wouldn't blame him.

Rod.

So, do we consider this dead in the water?  

Disappointing that it went the way it did following the initial enthusiasm people had.
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Post  Cribbs74 on Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:19 pm

Well, as with most contests the initial excitement wanes closer to contest date. This has been my experience in the past hosting events like these.

Keep in mind there are not many that actually fly on here as opposed to those who just collect so that instantly rules out a lot of people. Of those that do fly many are into RC and not CL so that narrows it down even more.

I wouldn’t say it’s dead, you just need someone to CD the event and organize things. Are you volunteering?

Ron
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Post  Ken Cook on Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:29 pm

I attended the fun fly I mentioned prior and spent all day flying my speed stuff. I dedicated the majority of the day to 1/2A speed . Unfortunately, I have no video but got to do some trimming and get some good flights in. I was finally able to fly my Torky. I went through a half a quart of my last container of Cox Power fuel. I had two TD powered planes and one Norvel. The weather was not really cooperating as it was drizzling a bit. I don't have the luxury of flying speed other than where I was as it has paved circles. It's not exactly close to home either as it's about a 2 hr drive.
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Post  getback on Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:17 pm

Cribbs74 wrote:Well, as with most contests the initial excitement wanes closer to contest date. This has been my experience in the past hosting events like these.

Keep in mind there are not many that actually fly on here as opposed to those who just collect so that instantly rules out a lot of people. Of those that do fly many are into RC and not CL so that narrows it down even more.

I wouldn’t say it’s dead, you just need someone to CD the event and organize things. Are you volunteering?

Ron
Yea !!! Wink
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Post  modelbuilder49 on Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:19 pm

Howdy  Very Happy !  Has something changed  Neutral ??  Back in another thread, Fredvon posted on Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:29 pm in another thread:

"Open COX speed event with prizes out to 3rd place in 2 categories" .... with a December 31 deadline.

He spelled out the rule/requirements in that thread and all the comments were acknowledged and accepted as far as I know  Huh... .

I'm assuming this is still an approved event and offer is still valid.  Because, of all the other stuff in my normal schedule, I archived the message with the intent of getting my flights, testing and videos in just after Thanksgiving with my video entries being submitted before the wife and I head out to be with family for the holiday season  Smile .

Yes  Smile ??  No  Crying or Very sad ??
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Post  Cribbs74 on Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:16 pm

Who is heading this thing up? The CD needs to weigh in and set things right.

Edit: Looks like Jim is the CD, haven’t seen him post in a long while.

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Post  1/2A Nut on Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:27 am

fredvon4 wrote:Well my sponsor ship did not have the desired effect....


BUT we do  have a declared winner who gets the First Prize money...I need PM with snail mail or PayPal address

Congratulations modelbuilder49

I thought the contest was over here was the winner the only one that ever posted a vid in time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0vXoiGbUv0



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Post  getback on Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:05 am

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