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Why is tee dee a better engine?

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Why is tee dee a better engine?

Post  xtal_01 on Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:59 pm

Hey!

OK ... I am new to all this (my first post).

The last time I used a cox engine, I was in my teens .... I am 55 now.

Had a few Cox planes (Stuka, PT, bush plane) a Testors (BD5) a jeep (Cox) and dune buggy (Testors).

I built lots of flat body, flat wing u-control panes and finally ended with a .15 Enya ribbed wing plane.

I only had baby bee engines. I know they are reed valve engines.

I see people putting in high bids for Tee Dee engines on ebay. I know they are a rotary valve engine.

My question, why is one better than another?

I remember having a Suzuki dirt bike when I was young and it had a reed valve.

If Tee Dee's are better then what do people do now? I just looked at the Cox page and don't see any (except for new boxed ones that I am sure people are buying as collectors items).

After cox more or less folded for a number of years (read the history of different owners) .... who took up the slack? Did (or does) any other company sell 049 engines .... or maybe if it doesn't have a screen on it, kids are not interested anymore?

Just FYI .... found all my old engines (along with a couple more I bought cheap along the way). Took them all apart, cleaned them ... they all seem to need gaskets and maybe a new read in a few but other then that, they seem in great shape. I see Cox of Canada still has these parts so I should get them on order. We just got through a 5 year house building project ... think it is time for some fun. I am itching to give u-control a try again.

Hmmmm ... guess I should also ask, anything special I should look out for when I rebuild these engines?

Thanks ..... Mike
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Re: Why is tee dee a better engine?

Post  1/2A Nut on Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:35 pm

Hi Mike welcome aboard, take a pic of your engines lets see what your working with.
Reed engines are limited on rpm but can put out some good static numbers, the TD
has a air / fuel rotary front induction pump to force in more mix / power. The TD
tends to be a bit less fussy to when it comes to holding a good needle valve setting.
The cylinder is ported for more power then some of the reed engines.
Small Cox Logo
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Pump?

Post  xtal_01 on Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:59 pm

Hmmmm ... so I thought the rotating part under the carb ( or in the back ... found a video where someone it looks like tried to put a rotary valve on the back of a standard reed engine) is a pump?

I thought this was just an on / off valve, my guess would be it would be open when the piston is at TDC so there would be a slight vacuum in the case and then close so the fuel air mixture is not pushed back out the carb.

Is it somehow pumping air / fuel in ... more like a super charger????

I am hoping to find my engines as I unpack in the next few weeks ... I carefully packed them away before moving so I would not loose parts. I do have 6 engines I just bought a couple of weeks off craigs list. The seller said they were his as a kid. Mine all had single slot cylinders but these all have two slots. One has a silver tank .... one a small black tank .... one a large black tank ... three with plastic backs. Two have black bodies and the other 4 silver. They were all frozen when I got them. Soaked them in carburetor cleaner and they all freed up. Not bad for $20! Even got two plastic glow clips, a wrench and a glow head still in the package.

Thanks .... Mike
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Re: Why is tee dee a better engine?

Post  1/2A Nut on Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:25 pm

It helps to draw in fuel air acting like a pump somewhat, there are RR Cox engines with a incorporated
Rear Rotary valve using the crank pin to rotate it unlike a reed that lifts / seats / lifts / seats the rotary
valve has no cycling limits for max possible rpm.
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Re: Why is tee dee a better engine?

Post  Mark Boesen on Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:57 pm

Reed engines can not turn as high of RPM as a rotary valve design, at high RPM the reed will 'float' not open and close properly limiting the power the engine could develop
, much like valve float on a car engine.

Welcome to the forum, you won't finder a better group of people!
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Re: Why is tee dee a better engine?

Post  balogh on Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:30 am

xtal_01 wrote:Hmmmm  ... so I thought the rotating part under the carb ( or in the back ... found a video where someone it looks like tried to put a rotary valve on the back of a standard reed engine) is a pump?

I thought this was just an on / off valve, my guess would be it would be open when the piston is at TDC so there would be a slight vacuum in the case and then close so the fuel air mixture is not pushed back out the carb.

Is it somehow pumping air / fuel in ... more like a super charger????

I am hoping to find my engines as I unpack in the next few weeks  ... I carefully packed them away before moving so I would not loose parts.  I do have 6 engines I just bought a couple of weeks off craigs list.  The seller said they were his as a kid.  Mine all had single slot cylinders but these all have two slots.  One has a silver tank .... one a small black tank .... one a large black tank ... three with plastic backs.  Two have black bodies and the other 4 silver.  They were all frozen when I got them.  Soaked them in carburetor cleaner and they all freed up.  Not bad for $20!  Even got two plastic glow clips, a wrench and a glow head still in the package.

Thanks .... Mike

Welcome to CEF Mike...as others already summarized, TD-s are more efficient in drawing fuel, mixing it with air, and charging the cylinder. As a comparison, a good reedie (possibly with at least a No 1 cylinder that has 2 bypasses) will turn a 5x4 COX prop at around 16-17k, a TD will do 21k+ on the same prop.

The carburetor of the TD allows the mixing of fuel with air with better atomization and distribution of the fuel, and the fuel droplets also travel longer before they reach the crankcase and hence mix better with the air than in a reedie.

The dual bypass in the cylinder, especially when 2 booster grooves are also added (then it is a No 4 or No 5 cylinder) allows for a quicker charge and more efficient scavanging of the cylinder...so a different concept than a reedie..

I like both reedies and TeeDee-s but if I want real brute COX performance I usually go with the TeeDee .

You will find some useful COX engine performance comparison charts in the "Performance " chapter of this site:
http://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/cox_frameset.htm
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Re: Why is tee dee a better engine?

Post  Oldenginerod on Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:39 am

The power diference between the two probably has a lot to do with port timing as well. A reed valve opens when exposed to a vacuum (from the piston going up) and it closes when exposed to pressure (piston going down). It's only timed by the current atmospheric pressure. In a rotary valve engine the opening and closing of the valve can be accurately timed for optimal gas transfer at just the right time.
Reed valve Cox engines can be made to pull some pretty high numbers, but as Mark said, the reed becomes unreliable at those speeds. They also have a tendency to break crankshafts at high speed, wheras the Tee Dee has a much stronger shaft as it was designed and built to run faster than the reed valve engines.

Rod.
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Re: Why is tee dee a better engine?

Post  Kim on Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:14 am

One of the other advantages, besides the power, is that Tee Dee and Medallions, with their external fuel tanks, make it easier vary the amount of fuel you can pack aboard your plane.  The 'Perfect' and Brodak brand tanks will also feed fuel to these engines when the plane is inverted, which can be done tanked engines, but with a bunch more time to fly.

Here's photo of Ron, fueling the 'Traveling Engine' on his 'Flying Clown', which has a bladder fuel system:  A pressurized way to feed fuel to the Tee Dee for a constant engine run.



But, of course, they're ALL great little engines!!!

Welcome to CEF !!!!

Kim
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Re: Why is tee dee a better engine?

Post  rsv1cox on Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:02 am

Hi Mike, and welcome to the forum.

Matt of EX Engines and Bernie of Cox International both supply new and sometimes used engines, parts are also available at MECOA all easily found on the net. Buy a "Cox Engine Powered" Tee shirt here to help support this forum and wear it to events.

As you probably know while the main theme here is Cox engine related many other topics are discussed which brings me to your once owned Suzuki dirt bike with the reed valve engine. Do you remember the year and model?

Bob



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Wow ... lots of info ... thanks so much!

Post  xtal_01 on Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:32 pm

Wow ... thanks for all the information!

Just before I forget ... it was a Suzuki RM125B ...about 1976

Also had a Polaris snow mobile in the 80's but it was about a 1972 vintage 250 cc ... two cylinder, 2 stroke.

The tee shirts are awesome!

Thanks for the information on the difference in the engines .... makes a lot of sense now.

My wife says I like "living history" .... I don't want things just to look at ... I want them to work the way there were intended to.  I have a couple of old hit and miss engines that I keep running .... a vertical steam engine ... a  bunch of old toys from my childhood (trains, slot cars, meccano and erector sets, ....I even had my old tricycle and metal pedal fire engine, I just reworked my old tube tester, I built (tested ... almost finished) an elevator out of a forklift, ......, I don't own a smart phone and even my home phone is an old 60's rotary dial unit.

I wanted to get all these old engines running.  I miss my days of u-control flying (though when I showed my wife a youtube video she asked so you only go around and round and round and ...?).

I will take an inventory and see what I need to get on order to get these in good shape.  Mine were fine and only needed a mild cleaning.  The ones I bought were really stuck!  No rust but what ever type of fuel the guy used left a blue almost hard layer.  I could not even turn the with a wrench ... probably why the guy sold them all to me fore $20, thought they were junk.  But as I said ... carburetor/choke cleaner freed them up after a couple hours of soaking ... they look good, rotate free and have decent compression. I think the black tanks should be on the black bodied engines but I put them back together the way I got them.



New question .... why the two ports on the cylinders?  All mine had a single opening on each side of the cylinder ... these have two slots on each side?

Thanks again ..... Mike
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Re: Why is tee dee a better engine?

Post  Tee Bee on Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:51 pm

Nice looking set of engines there. As mentioned above, the TD series engines are known for more efficiency and power but does that make them "better" for the masses. Not necessarily! I run and fly Cox engines of many sizes and styles, enjoying the unique merits that each has to offer(and sometimes suffering the downfalls Smile). RPMs and high power aren't always the main objective, depending on the application. Those reedie .049s have provided many hours of flying fun for many people and I still enjoy them today. When it comes to bang for the buck, they are often the winner when operating on a budget or flying something that doesn't require a whole lot of whizz-bang up front. And welcome to the forum!
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Re: Why is tee dee a better engine?

Post  fredvon4 on Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:18 pm

Cylinder porting

Usually the wide single port is very obvious
The there can be an added narrower slightly taller BOOST port on one side of the main fuel air port

some cylinders have two main wide ports

some have additional BOOST ports on each side of the main

and some have only one BOOST port on one side of the main

Each has distinct advantage or not

The there are a whole host of exhaust cut outs and various screens on the out side of the cylinder

My understanding is all the slit and screen versions were an attempt to control spark/fire ....safety methods

I much prefer the twin Large open exhaust Cylinder versions... but have many twin slit versions that are just as high reving

All the various combinations can drive a fellow mad....

welcome to the very wide variety of Cox engines..... a true life time of learning and playing



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I hd no idea there are so many variations !

Post  xtal_01 on Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:32 pm

Wow ... as I said, I just remember all of my old engines (circa 1970 - 1974) had a single large port ... I think they were all baby bee engines. Also, all had a brass (copper) cross for the reed.

The engines shown that I got, I am betting are a bit newer. Some had a standard reed and some had the newer style that is shown available now.

Two have the large ports I am familiar with but four have what I will call double slits on each side of the cylinder.

I am guessing if I do some searching, someone has a list of all the possible parts and the pros / cons of each?

Thanks again .... Mike


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Re: Why is tee dee a better engine?

Post  fredvon4 on Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:38 pm

xtal..01

Scroll back up and watch the left side.... click on the Cylinder identification link....enjoy
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Re: Why is tee dee a better engine?

Post  Kim on Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:00 pm

I don't know your location, but if you're within possible travel distance of Little Rock Arkansas, you can immerse yourself in more types of Cox and other small engines or rockets or electrics, bolted to the noses and tails of some of the coolest airframes ever at the annual Small Model Airplane Lovers League (S.M.A.L.L.) Fly-In.

You WILL be warmly welcomed and parked among friends as a fellow fanatic admirer of these castor-slingers! I bought two more lawn chairs for my collection of those!!! If not this year, perhaps something that can eventually be planned

This year's Fly-In is May 31st-June 3rd, just outside of Little Rock.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?3015954-SMALL-2018-May-31-June-3-2018-%28Thr-Sun%29-Mayflower-Arkansas#post38958319

Here's some of the great stuff that goes on!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbwIBHQfBks&t=8s



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4exoiGbuGU
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Slit cyclinder without top fin milled

Post  xtal_01 on Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:02 pm

Found it .... interesting out of the 4 engines I have with slits, 2 do not have the top fin milled!

This actually baffled me when I took them apart as I wondered how to get the cylinder off.

I ended up wrapping it with a rag and using channel locks but I did not think this was correct.

I don't see any slit cylinders listed without a milled top fin.

Any idea what I have?

Thanks .... Mike
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Road trip ...

Post  xtal_01 on Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:36 pm

I will have to add this to my list!

After 5 years building a house my wife and I are talking about traveling again.

My wife (we have been together 10 years) was paralyzed from the shoulders down in a diving accident when she was 12.  Because she need care every 4 hours she had never traveled.  When we met, I got an old RV, built a wheelchair lift, a lift inside and installed a couple of hospital beds.  Now we just get up and go when every we want.  Did a lot of traveling for the first few years while I sold my house in SC (she was here in VT ... I am originally from Canada ... with her job and health insurance here, I just sold everything and moved north again) but only short trips to see family since ... well and one trip to Disney in FL (needed a break between framing and finishing).  To save money, we spend three years in the RV (not easy with -30 winter temps) on site.  I am just finishing up all those 200 little things before we move from the unfinished part of the house to the finished living area.  That leaves only one real job ... the workshop.  I have the pad poured and will start on it when the weather breaks.  I am a machinist by trade and have been dying with out the use of my lathes and mills  .... got desperate and dragged the welder from the storage trailer and used it in the house.

Here is a link to the RV project:

mcsele.shutterfly.com/2299

We wanted an two story house but they quoted $40K for an elevator (long story ... started at $15k with a $10K grant so only $5K out of pocket).  Anyway, I ended up getting a forklift for $850 and using the mast and hydraulics to build one ... about a $2k project.

Thanks .... Mike
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Re: Why is tee dee a better engine?

Post  Tee Bee on Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:52 pm

Wow! With a mechanical resume' like that, your Cox engines will no doubt run just fine!
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Re: Why is tee dee a better engine?

Post  roddie on Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:52 pm

Hi Mike, Welcome to CEF! So.. you and your wife are living in Vermont. That would technically make "me" the nearest regularly-active forum member to you geographically. I live in Northern Rhode Island with my wife of also 10 years.

I really enjoyed reading about you through this thread. We're all "good buddies" here. In short-order; you'll get to know people who live half-way around the world.. and wish you could meet them face to face someday. Travelling-distance is the only thing that really separates us.

Your "question" (topic of this thread) intrigued me.. and I'm glad that you posed it. Until fairly recently (2-3 years).. my Cox engines were all of the "reed-valve" type. I now have a couple of Tee Dee's and a Medallion. I don't have much experience with them though (or spare-parts).

Regarding your recent 6-engine score for $20..  Hand Shake  You done good!



The previous owner swapped some parts between engines.. but many of us do this. I would say that those two "black" 8cc fuel-tanks were originally paired with those two "black" crankcases.. making them "Black Widow" engines. The Cox "Black-Widow" paperwork shown, would confirm this. As for the engine-cylinders mounted to those black crankcases;.. you'd need to check their intake-porting to know if any of them are of a Black-Widow spec. but most likely two of them would be. The Cox "Black-Widow" is a high-performance reed-valve engine. The venturi/air-intake is of a larger diameter (.082" compared to .063" for the Babe Bee and Golden Bee engines) therefore; swapping certain Cox integral tanks onto a different crankcase having a different cylinder.. can have a profoundly different performance.  

It's been questioned "why" Cox would have later produced their popular .049 engine cylinder with no provision for removal using a Cox wrench.  Huh... There’s a “Cox handbook” that might reveal the answer to that question.. but I don’t own one. You asked why the change to the thinner “dual-slit” exhaust-ports on the cylinder.. to which Fred provided the answer. Here lies a clue. I would guess that Cox didn’t immediately realize that this design-change would prohibit the previous-use of their wrench to remove the cylinder from the crankcase via the larger port.. which their wrench would engage to remove it. Maintaining the "cheaper" reed-valve/product-engine… Cox may have figured; didn’t generally involve removing the cylinder from the crankcase for the novice.. but piston/rod reset tools were being offered.. and cylinder-removal is needed to use that tool. "Cost" was a factor.. unfortunately.. and Cox was competing with "Testors" around that time.

The plastic reed-valve backplates designed to use an external fuel-tank.. in my opinion “all” flow more air/fuel to the reed-valve, than any of Cox’s integral-tanks do. This is why many of us use more aggressively-ported (as in “Tee Dee”) cylinders with them, if higher-performance is desired.

Three of those six engines shown in your pic. have plastic backplates. These were “carbs” (for all intents and purposes) which mated-up to the crankcase, having a rear air-intake, reed-valve induction, needle-valve assembly and a barb for a fuel-line. Cox designed their RTR/RTF models with this “modular” engine which was referred to as their “190 engine”. It was much cheaper to produce.. than putting a beautiful spun-aluminum “integral” fuel-tank on an engine that might be thrown-away when and if the model got broken. The “red one” is the earlier of the three.. and is referred to as a “postage-stamp” backplate. These earlier backplates had higher-quality fine-thread needle-valve assemblies of 120/128 TPI compared to the later 80 TPI NVA’s produced later. These NVA’s can be pressed-out and reinstalled in the later "horseshoe" backplate (which has provisions for a radial/firewall-mounting) if desired. One advantage to having a fine-thread NVA is when running a pressure-bladder fuel-feed. The fine-thread needle has a much finer "resolution" when it comes to dialing-in the optimal fuel-air ratio. Nothing I’ve needed to do.. but something I’d like to try in the future.

I hope I haven’t confused you mike. Like you; I have some machining background.. so I’m pretty sure you understood most of what I wrote here. I look forward to more communication.
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Re: Why is tee dee a better engine?

Post  fredvon4 on Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:46 pm

I know many think this is a heritic method...BUT I have NEVER buggered a Cox Cylinder using the tool ACROSS the wide exhaust slits... not possible with thin twin slit versions

I also ...like every body with a well or slightly used engine--- find that a GOOD dose of heat and a strap type wrench can easily remove any cylinder

The hardest part ever for me to remove is the well stuck back plate on TeeDee / Medallions... but again... take the Cox tool in a vice... heat the hell out of the back plate and even this stubborn part can be removed with little to no damage.....


FWIIW...I doubt* I have one (OF 54) Cos .049/.051 engines that are exactly as assembled by the MFG...all are mix n match...some by me and many by who knows who

* OK I had to add the * because I remembered I have two NIB COX engines still never touched by me (or anyone else ) in original packaging....
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Re: Why is tee dee a better engine?

Post  Tee Bee on Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:57 pm

Stock sucks. Hybrid mutts are waaay better. Smile
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Thanks for the warm welcome ... lots to learn!

Post  xtal_01 on Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:58 pm

Thanks so much for the warm welcome!

As I said, my wife figures I am re-living my childhood ... my family just says that I never grew up.

I can just see lots of projects in my future. As I said, I definitely what to try u-control again. I have a small river running along the side of my property. Maybe an air boat or even a hover craft .... hmmmmm.

I will need to take a good inventory of everything I have, including my engines and see what I can put together. For the little planes I remember flying, even a simple baby bee performed well. Probably because anything I built was still half the weight of a cox RTF plane.

Being a machinist, I am amazed at how well these engines are built. In my mind, it is much easier to machine larger parts. The fit and finish of a motor that can fit in the palm of my hand is quite something.

Once I get my shop set back up, lots of ideas .... building a rotary valve for the back or maybe one of the two cylinder set-ups I have seen. I was amazed at what people had done with little marvel. I will need to practice up on my micro machining skills.

I have never used an 049 with a separate tank ... well not in anything I built. My introduction to Cox was a Stuka my parents bought for me ... I may have been 8 or 10. I would never had guessed there was different thread on different needs ... for that matter, till I got this batch, I didn't know there were different plastic backs ... I thought they were all just for cox plastic planes.

This sounds like an awesome group! I sure I will have a million questions as time goes on.

Heck, even while writing this, I noticed that some of the engines have an aluminum plate behind the prop and some have brass .... must be dozens of small changes thought the years ... some good, some bad.

Mike


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