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Post  MBT85 on Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:22 am

So as a few of you know I've been waiting on my first 2 Cox engines brought off eBay.
Whilst at work today they where delivered!!! I nearly cried when I saw the actual size of these gorgeous little engines!!! Damn!
I'm in love!!   Babe Bee .049  Babe Bee .049
Does anyone know what type of engines these are? TeeDee, medallion, space bug etc? (I don't mean to sound naive I just don't know)
Also what year where they likely from? They where advertised as '1960s', but again I have no clue if this is true.
Anyway after this I now know that I MUST HAVE a .010..........................
So if anyone has one for sale please please PM me
Thank you for any help you provide and have a great day!!
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Shocked Re: [solved]WOW They came!!!!

Post  getback on Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:26 am

Yea Matt !! Glad you got the engines there product engines from crashed planes , there is alot of info here that will help you in the future . https://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/cox_frameset.htm it says mgn. around 1973 for the larger back plate #191-5, ECJ #28 probably a PT -19 flight trainer . You will need a fuel tank to run these engines and engine mount for the smaller BP #191-7, ECJ #30d as there is no way to mount w/o it , Enjoy your new toys , tear them apart and inspect / clean . Clapping Clapping Clapping
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Shocked Re: [solved]WOW They came!!!!

Post  Cribbs74 on Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:28 am

What you have there are product engines. They don’t have a name just a number designation. I am too lazy to look it up at the moment.

They were most likely in the nose of a COX RTF airplane at one time.

So, dating Cox engines can be a little difficult because they would be produced for a number of years in one particular form until a change was made. Most times the best you can do is a guess on a year range.

Those aren’t from the 60’s.
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Post  Levent Suberk on Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:37 am

Good engines Very Happy

A page describing backplates:

https://www.coxengineforum.com/t6641-cox-049-delrin-back-plate-collection

I'm familiar with the engines after reading articles, Cox instruction sheets and searching Google images.
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Shocked Re: [solved]WOW They came!!!!

Post  MBT85 on Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:40 am

Thank you for replying guys, and thank you for the links, they're awesome websites, alot of help so thank you!!
I'm going to have to find parts for the one with the smaller backplate and some fuel tanks, this might be a silly question and again I'm sorry for bugging you guys but what type of fuel tanks would go onto these engines?

What mounts do I use for bench testing as I don't have a plane/car etc yet?


I have noticed that the one with the small backplate has 2 intake and 2 exhaust and a little ring under the exhaust, what would this be for?This engine has a spring on the needle at the back.
The other engine has 1 intake and 2 exhaust ports and is a solid cylinder the whole way to the crankcase. this engine has no spring on the needle at the back

I apologize for my lack in knowledge of these engines yet, I've really only been 'INTO' Cox engine 2 weeks. And I only just brought my first nitro engine a month ago, and have never started one, or been in the vicinity of one whilst going. I'm excited tho, I've always had a huge passion for engines and these are truly amazing!!!
Thank you again everyone for all your help.
This Site Rocks! I Love This Forum!
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Shocked Re: [solved]WOW They came!!!!

Post  rsv1cox on Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:58 am

Bugging is what we do here.  Smile.............It's refreshing to see the enthusiasm expressed by new members.

There are pages and pages of information on the net regarding these engines.  One of the best is here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cox_model_engine

Regarding your intake and exhaust questions.  Have you had it apart to look inside the cylinder?  That is where the fuel intake ports are located, there are different types.  The two exhaust ports you can see on the outside of the cylinder, different types there too.

The screened opening you see at the back of the engine is the air intake and a needle valve that meters the fuel.  Think simple carburetor.

Types of cylinders:

[solved]WOW They came!!!! Cox-0410

Bob
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Shocked Re: [solved]WOW They came!!!!

Post  Kim on Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:01 am

Congrats on your acquisitions!!!!!!!!

Carl Goldberg Models marketed an adapter that allowed "Postage Stamp Engine Mounts" to be used on models other than the RTF's they powered.

These adapters occasionally show up on Ebay, with varying selling prices...where I managed to get one fairly cheaply.  They're also seen at Swap Meets like this one a couple months ago, and I'll keep an eye out for a cheap one to show up. I could probably get it to you in a small envelope.

[solved]WOW They came!!!! 7_29


Last edited by Kim on Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Shocked Re: [solved]WOW They came!!!!

Post  Levent Suberk on Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:03 am

Fuel tanks and aluminum engine test stands can be bought from Cox International or EX Model Engines.

Wooden test stands can be made as an alternative.

You need a spring or a piece of fuel tubing (instead of spring) for needle valve. Spring can be found at Cox International and EX Model Engines.

Both companies have been selling new Bee and Sure Start engines (assembled with several after market parts), so it is useful to take a look at them.



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Shocked Re: [solved]WOW They came!!!!

Post  MBT85 on Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:09 am

THANK YOU all sooooo much for your help!!

I havn't had them apart as of yet, I finnished work at 11pm and its now2am
I've only taken the glowhead off both which seem to have different plugs.

I'm really getting so excited!! Like a little kid with a new toy all hyperactive hahaha

Can the backing plates be swapped over?

Sorry it's 2am
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Shocked Re: [solved]WOW They came!!!!

Post  Levent Suberk on Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:16 am

Unscrew all parts, clean them and reassemble them. Buy plenty of spare parts and tooling. Cox engines are very good pastime and my bench is my playground. Very Happy lol!
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Shocked Re: [solved]WOW They came!!!!

Post  balogh on Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:35 am

The one with the smaller backplate - the so called post stamp backplate  - is my favorit reedie engine...its tiny size made me fall in love with it when I first saw it and sensed its brute force in the COX Stuka plane of a highschool buddy back in 1974. It came more often with the No 1 cylinder that has 2 bypass ports and is stronger than the No 2 cylinder with only 1 bypass port. You will find a No 1 or 2 stamped under the exhaust port on the cylinder. You may also need replacement parts later when you have disassembled them and found some damaged components (not likely, these engines are hard to destroy, unless intentionally)  but COX Int'l and Exmodelengines (Matt) have a plethora of replacement parts in their webshops...

As to your question, these COX reedie engines have fully interchangeable backplates..you may want to beef up the performance of the engine a bit and buy a Killer Bee backplate....https://coxengines.ca/cox-.049-backplate-assembly-killer-bee.html..I could also suggest a TD cylinder/piston combo etc. and in  no time you will start spending your money on the hobby like we all do here on CEF... Very Happy

You said you were amazed with the actual size of these 049 engines...and now want to have an 010 as well....man, once you see the 010 and hold it in your hand, you will be lost in love with COX engines for eternity..these are pretty expensive critters that sell near 200 USD apiece on ebay, New in Box, but Santa is around the corner with nice excuses for you to spend..
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Post  Jason_WI on Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:02 am

The engine with the small backplate has a W glow head installed. It has the tell tale groove cut on the top of the glow head. Your first hard to find part.
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Shocked Re: [solved]WOW They came!!!!

Post  Mark Boesen on Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:46 pm

The small back plate ('postage stamp') is called a 'product' engine #290, as used in the
P-51, Stuka, etc., it's from early 70's, stepped cylinder, 'W' glowhead, early non-tapered case. The other is a little later, mid seventies, no step on cylinder, backplate used on PT-19 and possibly others.
Use heat to help loosen parts, more then likely reed valve is stuck.

welcome to the addiction.
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Shocked Re: [solved]WOW They came!!!!

Post  MBT85 on Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:22 pm

OH MY GOSH!!
I really am addicted already, I had dreams last night of these engines LOL
I’m actually lost for words except thank you all for ALL your amazing help!
You guys are a really great bunch of people and I’m so glad I’ve stumbled across you all.
Ok time for research and cleaning......it’s actually time to go to work but I will get back and play for sure!!
Thank you all again so very much you have no idea how much you’ve helped me!
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Post  GallopingGhostler on Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:23 pm

Kim wrote:Congrats on your acquisitions!!!!!!!! Carl Goldberg Models marketed an adapter that allowed "Postage Stamp Engine Mounts" to be used on models other than the RTF's they powered. These adapters occasionally show up on Ebay, with varying selling prices...where I managed to get one fairly cheaply.  They're also seen at Swap Meets like this one a couple months ago, and I'll keep an eye out for a cheap one to show up.  I could probably get it to you in a small envelope.
[solved]WOW They came!!!! 7_29

A little known trivia about the Carl Goldberg EB-1 Engine Mount is that if you orient the needle valve to the side, then its bolt pattern matches the Bee tank engines. One of two I have that are now donors from long gone RTF's, has a #2 cylinder with one bypass.

[solved]WOW They came!!!! Cox_0426

Haven't check but I suspect its performance is probably akin to the Golden Bee, which was a little hotter than the Babe Bee. I suspect the one with the #1 cylinder is probably akin to the Black Widow if equipped with a Tee Dee head.

I've been told the more desirable dual bypass was used in half-A racing back in the 1960's.
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Shocked Re: [solved]WOW They came!!!!

Post  944_Jim on Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:46 pm

MB, there is a way to fashion aluminum adapters for the postage stamp back plate. The Goldberg adapter plastics shown above are pretty flimsy. For ease of use, see if you can find a spare horseshoe backplate instead. There really is no performance gain in using the postage stamp backplate.

Your postage stamp backplate has a fine thread needle/spray bar. Speed freaks look for this backplate to strip it and install that spray bar/needle in a drilled-out horseshoe backplate (think oversize carb) so they can more finely meter pressurized fuel flow from a bladder (pressure-fed fuel "system").

Test your glow plugs with no less than a 1.2 volt Rechargeable Battery, but NO MORE than 1.5 volts! Two flashlight D-cells in parallel make a fine battery pack. Parallel, not serial (which makes 3 volts). You want the element to glow bright orange, not a dull glow. You should be able to see the glow reflect off the top of the piston through the exhaust port when the piston is at dead bottom center ( exhaust port as open as possible).

These engines will flood out if you mount an external fuel tank above them. A small, 15-30cc shampoo bottle can be made into an effective tank for flying or just bench running. The bottle needs to be on it's side, with the center of the bottle as close to inline with the center of the air intake as possible. The cap will need two holes, one for fuel line, and the other a vent. If you have a friend in the medical field, intravenous lines can make a cheap fuel line for tank to spray bar nipple. Check the fit before committing, of course.

Start using the engines with a 5" diameter prop with 3" pitch. You can make changes after you get used to running the engine on this stock-sized prop. Your test stand is as simple as a block of wood. If you have a scrap of plywood, the glue it to another block to make an L. The engine gets.scrrwed.to the upright, the tank goes into the inside angle of the L. You can shim the tank up and down to see how it affects running of the engine. What you learn from this is what you apply to your model airplane later.

These engines REQUIRE castor oil in the fuel, and run really well on 25% nitro fuel. If you find low synthetic oil/high nitro fuel (boat/truggie), then you can spice it with castor oil from an apothecary. The link to the MH site may have a copy of the original full blends, as might the Instruction sheets link in the lower left corner of this site. I run mine on a blend of two fuels with a taylored shot of castor oil.

Enjoy the new toys! Try control line flying with a home-built model or two. You'd be surprised how cheap model airplane flying CAN be if you choose the right model (find plans at Outerzone, Hip Pocket Aeronautics, and mmmm, one other). A simple slab-wing airplane can be knocked together and painted with regular spray paint and top coated with polyurethane for fuel proofing (high nitro fuel eats paint).

Enjoy childhood #2 (I'm on  my childhood #3)!
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Shocked Re: [solved]WOW They came!!!!

Post  MBT85 on Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:48 am

First and foremost, do I need the special spanner to pull these engines apart or can I use conventional tools?
I plan on pulling at least one of them completely apart to learn how it all works, it will most likely be the one with only 1 bypass post in the cylinder head as stated these are less desired than the duel post version.
And I’ll probably change the rear plastic on the postage stamp type engine for ease of use.
Then make some stands and get them on it to bench test them.
If Rod is available I may see if he can help me out some.
Thank you all again for the HUGE amount of help you have given me!!
I truly appreciate it!
If I can help any of you with anything please don’t hesitate to ask!!
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Post  balogh on Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:08 am

COX engines require special wrenches for the removal of the glow head and the cylinder and it is highly recommended to use them to avoid any damage to the engine.

Older cylinders with no flats machined on the top fins can only be removed with the special fork of the wrench tucked into the exhaust opening and this is when it is easy to add unwanted burrs on the cylinder inside surface...so exert extra caution and unless you have the COX wrenches buy them on ebay or at COX Int'l or Exmodel engines..https://coxengines.ca/cox-.049-wrench-oem-black.html..this one will handle the 049 size cylinder with or without the said "flats" on the top fin,  and the glow head both...

Removal of the head and cylinder can be a cumbersome effort if the castor oil has caked between the threads. Dipping the engine in fuel for a couple days, and heating then cooling with ice cubes in the threaded areas can help ease the removal of parts. Do not worry, with regular engine use and proper after run oil the sticking of parts together will not occur even if stored unused for many months.

Your cylinders are not of the thin-wall design of the late 50-s or early 60-s so the torque used when removing the cylinder from the crankcase, even if they have caked together over the years of use or storage, will not cause the cylinder to go out of roundness. One reason why COX abandoned the classic thin wall design for the stepped wall (your postage stamp backplate engine) then the thick wall design (the other, horseshoe backplate engine) was to prevent the cylinder from getting distorted when forceably removed..

The dented top fin on the glow head of one of your engines says that someone may have tried extra torque and improper tooling to remove that head. The top fin can be flattened/repaired, but this is what I am talking about...
Good luck, and wait until you have the wrenches...it is worth to wait for some time rather than damaging those little gems of yours.
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Post  Levent Suberk on Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:00 am

I made this stand for Bee engines. A vice holds stand. Added a servo control arm for throttle linkage. Stand can also be screwed directly on a wooden table:

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Post  balogh on Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:12 am

A very neat design!! Plywood sucks castor in and ply layers detach easily. I would use some fuel-resistant varnish to seal the plywood. I know polyurethane based varnishes are best but the containers - at least the spray cans in DIY shops accessible for me - rarely specify what the varnish base is.

I tried and succeeded with a spray varnish sold in auto part shops to protect the aluminum ring of car wheels....said to be fuel resistant, at least diesel and gasoline...works well with nitro fuel as well:

[solved]WOW They came!!!! 20181210
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Post  Levent Suberk on Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:26 am

Thank you for your suggestion Balogh. Very Happy
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Post  GallopingGhostler on Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:43 am

944_Jim wrote:MB, there is a way to fashion aluminum adapters for the postage stamp back plate. The Goldberg adapter plastics shown above are pretty flimsy. For ease of use, see if you can find a spare horseshoe backplate instead. There really is no performance gain in using the postage stamp backplate.

Are you sure about that? Once mounted, my GB EB-1 mounts are rather stout. Out of the package, its got a thin flexible nylon web with cut out for the needle valve assembly, which may give the impression of it being flimsy, but once mounted it becomes sturdy. At $0.69 each back in the 1960's, made for a decent mount with an external tank, rescued many product donor engines after one shot flights. Laughing With a few minor mods, the double bypass versions with the postage stamp backs were used as entry level speed engines. The horseshoe backs didn't come until later.

And, I've found some caveats to the horseshoe, particularly the gray one. I removed the NVA from a recent purchase of NOS back parts. Plastic is not Dupont Delrin, it is brittle, shatters easily. (Am using the Sure Start NVA to repair a Testors .049 Hot Shot.) Paul here has written an article on how to modify the Sure Start Horseshoe back to maximise performance. Requires removing the NVA and screen, and drilling off the flats that restrict airflow on each side of the spray bar. Buying the already modified ones are a better way to go.

Your postage stamp backplate has a fine thread needle/spray bar. Speed freaks look for this backplate to strip it and install that spray bar/needle in a drilled-out horseshoe backplate (think oversize carb) so they can more finely meter pressurized fuel flow from a bladder (pressure-fed fuel "system").

Please be careful, there are a few "speed freaks" who frequent this forum. Paranoid Shh No! Beer Cheers
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Post  944_Jim on Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:24 pm

GG,

All good points. But they aren't cheap any longer. And I know the aluminum adapters can be fashioned rather easily faster than finding the plastic ones.

I have one of the plastic ones. Put it up and forgot all about it. Then one if the regulars here posted a desire for one. It took a while to search for it, and found it again. But the guy changed his mind...even though I offered it for free. The Lord knows I've been gifted parts before, so I looked at this as a perfect opportunity to Pay-Forward. Now I lost the piece again...grrr!

Regarding the grey backplates, your findings won't to be argued. However, if any horseshoe backplate was available in good shape cheaply, I'd still recommend using it in place of the postage stamp...if only for the ease of mounting the engine.
Changing backplates has to easier than finding or making adapters. But, whatever the OP finds easiest/fastest is, well, fastest and easiest.

MB...are you in Australia? I thought I got that from your avatar. What does it cost to send a 1/2 ounce package.your way from the US?
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Post  944_Jim on Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:42 pm

From the depths of knowledge AKA CEF:
https://www.coxengineforum.com/t6905-postage-stamp-mounting

My Google search terms were "Cox postage stamp backplate aluminum mount" which yielded lots of hits.

If I were in a crunch to use what I had, I'd make a set.
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Post  Cribbs74 on Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:54 pm

Maybe Roddie will post. He could use an excuse to exercise his talents.

I came across hundreds of the Goldberg mounting plates for the postage stamp engines a couple years back. I grabbed a couple for myself, posted my find on here and nobody seemed interested. Wish I had grabbed a few more!
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