Cox Engines Forum
You are not logged in! Please login or register.

Logged in members see NO ADVERTISEMENTS!


Ethanol vs. Methanol - Page 2 Cox_ba12




Ethanol vs. Methanol - Page 2 Pixel

Log in

I forgot my password

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Latest topics
» German surrender 76 years ago
by Cribbs74 Today at 5:16 am

» Follow Rusty's Memorial Traveling Engines!
by getback Today at 4:59 am

» Propane Exchange
by Admin Today at 1:54 am

» Right up there with burnt castor oil.
by Admin Yesterday at 9:34 pm

» Cox 049 Tatone muffler
by Scotland421 Yesterday at 1:27 pm

» How does your Garden Grow
by Marleysky Yesterday at 9:31 am

» Bird feeder, new visitor
by Marleysky Yesterday at 8:57 am

» New project... Loop Graupner "Glow"
by getback Yesterday at 7:38 am

» Happy birthday Bernie
by KariFS Yesterday at 6:04 am

» Cox .020 Skycopter fuel tank replacement
by getback Yesterday at 5:47 am

» **VOTE-ON-THE-NEXT-COX-ENGINE-OF-THE-MONTH** (May 2021)
by MauricioB Thu May 06, 2021 11:58 pm

» Iced Tea Help Please......
by rsv1cox Thu May 06, 2021 7:30 pm

Cox Engine of The Month
April-2021
fredvon4's

Finely polished Cox .049 with exhaust collector.




PAST WINNERS
CEF Traveling Engine

Win This Engine!
Forum Store
CEF Ear Savers
Gallery


Ethanol vs. Methanol - Page 2 Empty

Ethanol vs. Methanol

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

Go down

Ethanol vs. Methanol - Page 2 Empty Re: Ethanol vs. Methanol

Post  fredvon4 Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:05 am

fredvon4
fredvon4
Top Poster
Top Poster

2019 Supporter

2020 Supporter

2021 Supporter

Posts : 3446
Join date : 2011-08-26
Age : 65
Location : Lampasas Texas

Back to top Go down

Ethanol vs. Methanol - Page 2 Empty Re: Ethanol vs. Methanol

Post  ian1954 Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:50 pm

Both methanol and ethanol absorb water. Methanol is actually more corrosive to rubber seals etc than ethanol. While they are not direct replacements as ethanol runs hotter than methanol the important consideration is the final fuel mix and glow plug choice,

I can't see any problem running a Cox engine with the fuel mix produced in Germany provided it is using castor oil. Standard Cox engines do not like no nitro (nitromethane) fuel so I am not surprised that the engine above will not run without the glow head being powered.

Nitromethane is substance in the UK so it is not possible to try a Nitroethanol fuel. In fact, Nitromethanol fuel is restrited to under 25%.

I don't see an Ethanol based fuel causing any damage to a Cox engine but as to performance - I am unable to comment.

Here we have Ethanl based fuels for cars. My experience with the Mini was using 97 Octane and not E10 (measued on the same traffice free 400 mile return trp) was a 5 mpg saving. Also the injectors did not need cleaning at major service,

Newer vehicles have been tuned and built to accept this fuel but I still find a performance and fuel saving difference but I am comparing petrol to ethanol not methanol to ethanol.





ian1954
ian1954
Diamond Member
Diamond Member

Posts : 2682
Join date : 2011-11-16
Age : 66
Location : England

Back to top Go down

Ethanol vs. Methanol - Page 2 Empty Re: Ethanol vs. Methanol

Post  fredvon4 Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:44 pm

My last few cars were E-85 rated but we still fill with Regular at 10% Ethanol... Politically I am not at all happy converting a food/ feed crop to some pseudo science BS..Another rant for another day in the Red Neck Zone

I am astounded that we have now 2 decades of Corn based augment Gasolines in the USA and wheil the cars have been adapted to deal with the detrimental effects of alky diluted fuels our 140+ Million adults, yard business, and home owners---- still have to buy products with gas engines that have not had the same materials changes applied as the auto industry did.... I know a LOt of small engine repair guys that have every conceivable Walbro, Briggs, Honda, Ryobi, Husqvarna Carb on hand for any weed eater, chain saw, or lawn mower, or pressure washer....yada yada

I personally changed to commercial yard equipment a few years back...a SUBSTANTIAL cost for Stihl, Echo, Gravely, John Deere (comercial)

the John Deere XR320 is only one fed pump gas....I pay roughly 15 bucks a gallon for pure gas in quart cans at ace hardware orr tractor supply.
....yes E85 , 10% but NO zero alky gas to be had at any pump in my rural local. We are rural enough to have more Diesel than Gas pumps

back to the subject...we collectively know a lot of EU modelers...no one seems to lament not finding Glow fuel..Most are distressed that NitroMethane is high cost of prohibited so they make due with FIA (80% meth 20% oil)

If you google the catalysts for Ethanol and Methanol or different...Platinum Rhodium, Palladium, core materiel has some impact...decades of converter research on chemical Power cells is worthy of reading....

And a parting thought ...If Ethanol was a cost effective alternative the glow fuel industry would exploit that...to my knowledge they do not

Anyone know why ENYA has a BUY back program for dead glow plugs?

America has 350 million population and best guess +/- 600,000 aero modelers
India 1.3 population and about same ratio of Aero modelrs
China over 1.6 Billion and estimated higher ratio of aero modelers

The world wide customer base of glow plug and glow fuel uses is still impressively big... and as MFGs drop off more and more choose Electrickery to be effective and cost equivalent....BUT they too impact the world supply of magnets, copper, and Lithium...just thoughts to ponder as we transition from 6+ Billion to 9.3 + Billion the tipping point in about 9 or 12 years....Hell Maybe AOC is right....OK sorry, bad Fred

fredvon4
fredvon4
Top Poster
Top Poster

2019 Supporter

2020 Supporter

2021 Supporter

Posts : 3446
Join date : 2011-08-26
Age : 65
Location : Lampasas Texas

Back to top Go down

Ethanol vs. Methanol - Page 2 Empty Re: Ethanol vs. Methanol

Post  jmendoza Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:18 pm

There is a reason they use Methanol for model engine fuel:
Methanol has 3 times the vapor pressure of ethanol and therefore volatilizes much faster...which is why you need to have the glow plug clip on to keep your engine running with ethanol. Simply put, the ethanol does not evaporate or light off as easily as methanol.

jmendoza
jmendoza
Bronze Member
Bronze Member

Posts : 31
Join date : 2017-07-18

Back to top Go down

Ethanol vs. Methanol - Page 2 Empty Re: Ethanol vs. Methanol

Post  emanuel Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:56 pm

I live here in Germany.
The point here is that methanol may not be sent by post because of its toxicity. Nitromethanol smells better than methanol, but I doubt whether it's more non-toxic. You can only get good old fuel here from specialist dealers with an ID card.

Then people started to mix in order to create a fuel that could be sent by post ...

Personally, I don't want to ruin my Cox engines for testing. Still, I care.

Here is the description from the advertising, what bothers me there is 10-13% oil content (organic), no information whether the castor oil is. 1 liter costs about $ 20 + shipping:

CARSON Bio Nitro-Fire model fuel - "100% Made in Germany!".

This model fuel is ideal for the hobby driver and parking lot driver

as well as for the ambitious newcomer to the competition. In contrast to the known methanol, the ethanol used in the production of the fuel is non-toxic. Only biological oils are used as lubricating additives. Due to the ingredients, this fuel can be shipped via the known transport routes.

Product features:
- Excellent engine running properties

- Optimal cooling and lubricating properties

- Composition, ethanol, 25% nitromethane, 10-13% oil content

- Container size 1 liter bottle with safety cap

Expert recommendation:

For excellent engine running properties, use your

Combustion engine a "hot glow plug" (CARSON item no .: 500905006 Rossi R2 hot).

The fuel should be stored at room temperature.
emanuel
emanuel
Bronze Member
Bronze Member

Posts : 37
Join date : 2020-09-16
Location : Fürstenfeldbruck

Back to top Go down

Ethanol vs. Methanol - Page 2 Empty Re: Ethanol vs. Methanol

Post  davidll1984 Sat Jan 30, 2021 7:21 pm

Try the os g5 gaz glow To run éthanol i believe that it is possible to work with ethanol ron 85 gasoline y have test it work som how look its very cold and the plug stay light engine run ritch low rpm y use rc ring To keap rpm down as possible m'y hand finger To cold engine run solid strong its rpm may sound low y used one very smal ventury in fact the smalest cox made restrictions insert in its back plate ventury its wy engine run not over 15000 rpm max y have To test performance engine wit the plug y have made spécifiques adapter for it long tip it wil Not fit standard glow adapter
davidll1984
davidll1984
Diamond Member
Diamond Member

Posts : 1333
Join date : 2020-02-12
Age : 36
Location : shawinigan

Back to top Go down

Ethanol vs. Methanol - Page 2 Empty Re: Ethanol vs. Methanol

Post  Cribbs74 Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:49 pm

In your video there is a 4x4 piece of wood. Why not bolt the engine to that and your fingers will stay warm... Wink
Cribbs74
Cribbs74
Moderator

2019 Supporter

2020 Supporter

2021 Supporter

Posts : 11481
Join date : 2011-10-24
Age : 47
Location : Tuttle, OK

Back to top Go down

Ethanol vs. Methanol - Page 2 Empty Re: Ethanol vs. Methanol

Post  Oldenginerod Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:38 pm

@davidll1984 wrote:Try the os g5 gaz glow To run éthanol i believe that it is possible to work with ethanol ron 85 gasoline y have test it work som how look its very cold and the plug stay light engine run ritch low rpm y use rc ring To keap rpm down as possible m'y hand finger To cold engine run solid strong its rpm may sound low y used one very smal ventury in fact the smalest cox made restrictions insert in its back plate ventury its wy engine run not over 15000 rpm max y have To test performance engine wit the plug y have made spécifiques adapter for it long tip it wil Not fit standard glow adapter

I think your prop is a little large. It sounds like your engine is labouring under load and I would estimate it's not doing more than 12,000 rpm. Someone with an a audio tach will be able to tell, but it's not running very fast.
Oldenginerod
Oldenginerod
Top Poster
Top Poster

Posts : 3332
Join date : 2012-06-15
Age : 58
Location : Drouin, Victoria

Back to top Go down

Ethanol vs. Methanol - Page 2 Empty Re: Ethanol vs. Methanol

Post  bakergw Sun Jan 31, 2021 2:52 am

Hi All,

I tried getting a surestart to run with metholated spirits and castor oil sometime ago in Australia as I have an incurable form of blood cancer and my Onco suggested to me that not being exposed to Nitro-methane would be good, but methanol had strong links to my illness also. I figure its too late now, and just wear rubber gloves to try and keep the stuff off my hands and the wife happy. The damage was done 40 years ago siphoning toluene out of 20 litre drums by tube and mouth to mix my GP Racing bike fuel. Laughing And using carbon tech to wash grease of my hands. HaHaHa. Those were the days. :-) the 70s and early 80s we didnt really know much better. sort of. Lol.

I got my surestart to run on Metholated spirits from the hardware store and castor oil by putting a diesel crank in, using a TD glow plug and shaving down the glow plug and top of the barrell to raise the compression a lot! It ran without the battery connected and needed about 5 1/2 turns on the needle to run. It would run at one rev range which was low guessing 13k and that was it. I have raced formula 500 dirt speedway cars in Australia that use mostly two stroke engines such as TZ 500, RZ 500, YZ 490, Aprillia engines, and they all have to run on Methanol and basically castor oil. To get them to run on this mix the heads need the compression increased a lot and the squish band reshaped a lot. The carbys also require much larger jetting. They perform really well when you get them right, but the timing has to change and the exhausts are tuned to methanol also. The engines are run flat out always so as that the needle is out of the valve or they seize. Wide open they stay cooler. And of course a dose of Toluene never goes astray in the fuel. Lol. You can pick whose running it, as they drain their carbys and tanks and flush them after every race to stop it wrecking the rubber seals etc.

Im sure you could get a Cox engine to run on ethanol no problems as long as its got nitro and castor in it. The hard part is when you take the nitro out. Thats when genuine engine mods are really needed.

Cheers,
Gary
avatar
bakergw
Account Deactivated by Owner

Posts : 76
Join date : 2020-09-20

Back to top Go down

Ethanol vs. Methanol - Page 2 Empty Re: Ethanol vs. Methanol

Post  davidll1984 Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:18 am

Y have test lot more than just the vidéo in the vidéo y use 6x3 cox prop y wanted the engine as low rpm as possible y let the rc ring go m'y hand finger. Hurt from cold its wy y keap rpm down mutch al the run the engine dont nead the batry conected wit os g5 Not no5 plug its for gasoline and it work... som how
davidll1984
davidll1984
Diamond Member
Diamond Member

Posts : 1333
Join date : 2020-02-12
Age : 36
Location : shawinigan

Back to top Go down

Ethanol vs. Methanol - Page 2 Empty Re: Ethanol vs. Methanol

Post  aspeed Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:03 am

David, was that straight gasoline? I have not found any E85 anywhere in southern Ontario. I have seen it near Detroit very cheap, but at this time the border is closed. Is the G5 plug still 1/4" - 32 thread? It looks pretty cold there, and the plug has enough heat to keep going well. I wonder if it would overheat in the summer on a hot humid day. There is a Turbo plug that is extra hot that was used in the Norvel .40 with some success and failures. It used gas and castor oil. Benol IIRC mixed better than regular castor.
aspeed
aspeed
Platinum Member
Platinum Member

Posts : 553
Join date : 2013-01-18
Location : Leamington Ont. Can.

Back to top Go down

Ethanol vs. Methanol - Page 2 Empty Re: Ethanol vs. Methanol

Post  davidll1984 Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:19 am

M'y test was using difrent aditive y try mix Nitro fuel wit regular gaz best was wit gaz wit gaz Line antifreeze y use klotz benol castor oil wit gaz the oil ratio was hard To get gasoline mix wit that mutch oil its wy use some aditive To get it mix To corect oil content for cox engine castor 50% sin benol 50% tink klotz benol castor. Not put castor alredy mix so y use straight castors wit y have Not test mutch engine run cold y hope it in m'y hand and its cylinder was just temper Not hot at al very mutch and run longer than wit nitro fuel tink du To low rpm
davidll1984
davidll1984
Diamond Member
Diamond Member

Posts : 1333
Join date : 2020-02-12
Age : 36
Location : shawinigan

Back to top Go down

Ethanol vs. Methanol - Page 2 Empty Re: Ethanol vs. Methanol

Post  davidll1984 Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:43 am

M'y sion frs used éthanol e85 its wy y have litle left in botle scion Toyota say it giving more power y used the cars for race now cars is totaled scrap after empty scool bus ran into m'y cars in revers in To m'y litle cars no one was hurt except the cars only m'y old 1991 Nissan skyline left for race now Not used for race just drive slow wit m'y sons niko y left that crazy world y was the buny chasing the time To beat the clock
davidll1984
davidll1984
Diamond Member
Diamond Member

Posts : 1333
Join date : 2020-02-12
Age : 36
Location : shawinigan

Back to top Go down

Ethanol vs. Methanol - Page 2 Empty Re: Ethanol vs. Methanol

Post  aspeed Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:29 pm

https://timesaversinc.com/sites/default/files/ts-logo@2x_0.png Always liked this logo. Had a sander machine at work.
aspeed
aspeed
Platinum Member
Platinum Member

Posts : 553
Join date : 2013-01-18
Location : Leamington Ont. Can.

Back to top Go down

Ethanol vs. Methanol - Page 2 Empty Advice from a Cox factory service tech

Post  jmendoza Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:51 am

Cox engines, and all glow engines for models were designed to run Methanol based fuels. To run ethanol requires changes to compression and glow head design. Not only that, but the engine will not produce as much power using ethanol compared to methanol. Running gasoline will eventually destroy a Cox engine due to the heat, as gasoline does not cool the piston as well as methanol. Plus, as mentioned before, it is difficult to get the required 20% of castor oil to stay mixed with gasoline unless you add a significant amount of another alcohol to make it soluble in gasoline.

It is far simpler to just use the correct fuel and not try to re-invent the wheel trying to get a Cox engine to run on some other fuel. For those of you with sensitivity to solvents and chemicals, wear chemical resistant gloves when handling the fuels, or simply change over to electric power.

Nitro-methane is basically not a fuel, it is an additive that is an oxidizer. What this means is it releases oxygen during combustion, which acts much like a blower, super-charger, or a turbo because it increases the amount of oxygen in the charge being burned.

Cox engines need at least 18% Castor oil to survive, and 20% is better. Less oil is not more power because the oil itself acts like a coolant and carries away heat as it passes through the engine. Reducing the oil percentage does double damage: less lubrication and less cooling, not good.

Glow Boy makes a good fuel just for Cox engines as it is pure Castor oil with your choice of 15% or 25% nitro, and is very close to the original Cox blue can and racing fuel mixes.
jmendoza
jmendoza
Bronze Member
Bronze Member

Posts : 31
Join date : 2017-07-18

Back to top Go down

Ethanol vs. Methanol - Page 2 Empty Re: Ethanol vs. Methanol

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum