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Post  OhBee on Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:54 pm

So.....how will this work for covering,and what do I use to glue it down and coat it with afterwards? Chiffon dress liner material. Cotton/silk blend ?  I do know someone built a plane in his motel room using this,but can't remember who? Looks and feels like the stuff we used in the 60's. No way I'm gonna be able to pull off a tissue covering job!Wing covering material 20200311
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Post  Ken Cook on Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:10 pm

It all depends on your use for it. If your using it for 1/2A, I would quickly rethink that idea as it's more than likely too heavy and it could also possibly crush the framework. Whenever I use a fabric, be it synthetic or silk, I use nitrate dope. Butyrate dope works well on silk, I don't use it on synthetics for the attachment coat. The next issue is the cost of dope, it's very expensive nowadays. Sig also makes a product for the installation of covering such as what you show called Stix-It. I feel it works well, the product is expensive and it adds a lot of weight in itself. If that covering is a must to use, it's going to take numerous coats of dope to fill in the weave just to fuel proof it which will also add further weight. Iron on coverings work quite well for me due to time and weight not too mention it handles hangar and flying rash quite well.
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Post  944_Jim on Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:15 pm

Mr. OhBee,

I'll stick a few square feet of more appropriate stuff in the box with the Wido Satan. Boxing got finished at 3:30 am today. It ships tomorrow or Saturday.
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Post  OhBee on Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:37 pm

Well bugger!   ...Guess I'm clueless! When did this all get so complicated? Maybe I should just stick to plastic models. I'm tempted to just sheet the wings in 1/32 balsa.  I don't have the skills
or dexterity  to work with fragile stuff anymore.
So Jim.....is that going to be a Satan repair kit?....Wink
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Post  944_Jim on Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:01 pm

The lighter tissue is for the Wido Satan. The heavier will be more appropriate for the Wizard. The box will have details in it.
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Post  OhBee on Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:18 pm

Well you know...they ARE talking 50's here this weekend!...... But I'll believe it when I see it!
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Post  andrew on Fri Mar 06, 2020 12:19 pm

Ken Cook wrote:............ Butyrate dope works well on silk, I don't use it on synthetics for the attachment coat. The next issue is the cost of dope, it's very expensive nowadays...........Iron on coverings work quite well for me due to time and weight not too mention it handles hangar and flying rash quite well.

I agree with Ken on all his points.  Covering and finishing expenses can far outstrip the cost of building the model, especially the smaller 1/2A sized planes.  For one-ups, iron on coverings are probably the most economical and don't require a large outlay up front.

OTOH, I like silk or silkspan for covering.  I've used the physician's examination table paper as a replacement for silkspan and found it to work equally as well at a fraction of the cost, but it still has to be painted if you want any color -- and colored dope is $$$ plus adds more weight than clear.

I used to use colored silk from SIG, but, given the current price, it must be woven from gold.  Dharma Trading sells ultra-light (5mm) white silk and slightly heavier (8mm) colored silk at a fraction of SIG's price.  mm or momme is a measure of weight, not millimeter. 5mm silk weighs about .65 ounce/sq. yd.; 8mm silk weighs about 1 ounce/sq. yd.  If you buy colored silk and dope it with clear only, weight build up is minimal -- being careful, it is lighter than plastics.

I generally buy clear butyrate, both tautening and non-tautening, from either Aircraft Spruce or Wick's Aircraft.  Wick's is a little less expensive than Aircraft Spruce.  If you are near an airport where they restore or repair older fabric covered aircraft, you can sometimes pick up small quantities of butyrate for little to nothing, but make sure you know if it is tautening or non-tautening.  Butyrate has a tremendous shrinkage strength and will easily cause warping if applied over solid wood -- use tautening only in open areas and on stronger structures.
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Post  OhBee on Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:21 pm

Ya ...be nice if you could walk into a hobby shop around here like the old days. Used to have several now there are none. Will butyrate dope work to stick cloth down! Seems thats all we used to use. Then a couple coats of clear then color. I don't plan on using any dope on this,there has to be cheaper alternatives .....like polyurethane or something. It's not going to be a showpiece...and may not live long!
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Post  Ken Cook on Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:35 am

Yes, butyrate will stick down cloth provided it's non synthetic. I have used butyrate on synthetics such as Ceconite and I have had it shed off in sheets. Nitrate dope dries faster, sands quicker and has a tendency to grab into synthetic coverings better.

          What size plane are you covering cloth with? Polyurethane will not work for attachment not to mention that it adds a lot of weight. When dope dries, the solvents evaporate offering little weight, not the case with urethanes.  You mention no dope, but you need the dope to shrink and maintain taughtness. Polyurethanes don't shrink as they dry, which will leave you with loose covering.  Sig Lite Coat offers the highest fuel resistance of any dope available today. Without the cost of shipping, a 4 oz. bottle is nearing $8.50 which you still need thinner which for equal size is almost $7. You will use twice the amount of thinner for brushing clear or color not too mention clean up. This will double your thinner to requiring a pt . which I recommend anyway due to it evaporating from the bottle as your brushing it.  You mentioned there will be no dope so your alternatives are small. This is what makes iron on coverings economical, fast, and easy to repair.


          One alternative is to use silkspan if you can find the proper weight and attach it with thinned white glue. It will require some coats of dope to shrink it and fuel proof it. A few others such as laminating film like Doculam which is a transparent film which irons on and can be painted inside or out works well. By itself, Doculam is fuel proof without paint leaving it clear.  It does not offer the puncture resistance that traditional iron on coverings such as Ultra Coat and Monokote offer.

      Another option which works and is also a clear iron on covering  which is available through Phil Cartier, which is called SLC covering. This covering has a treatment on it that accepts paint with a little scuffing. Phil however is almost to the end of the roll and is limited on how much he has. He did sell small samples which was enough to cover 1-2  1/2A planes. Corehouse products http://home.earthlink.net/~philcartier/

             Phil is slow to respond to e-mail and this might take repeated attempts.

      Coverite made a product called Coverlite. This came in color, red, green, yellow, black. This was a synthetic tissue which has no adhesive on the back of it. You needed to use a product like Balsarite also made by Coverite. I have used thinned white glue successfully on the framework. You would apply adhesive to the framework and then you would iron on and shrink the Coverlite. This material has been discontinued but is still available if you search for it.


My latest completion was a synthetic covering called polyspan, this is known as the new silkspan due to silkspan not being made in the weight required for large stunters. Polyspan is applied in the traditional attachment method and then shrunk
with a heat gun and iron. I applied a lot of dope because when I sanded it initially, it fuzzed up real bad and I had to bury the fuzz. Now that I know this, I wouldn't of sanded it early on. The paint though is a water based polyurethane used with a crosslinker to fuel proof it. The colors are samples available from Systems 3 which
makes the water based poly. Wing covering material Dscn2864
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Post  OhBee on Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:17 am

Have no way to install those plastic coverings that require heat. Guess I'll have to find  dope somewhere. Was planning on using the polyurethane for a top coat over whatever it gets painted with . I don't have much for supplies,and even less money. Havn't done any of this since the 60's. Don't think I can pull off any kind of a covering job really. Lost those skills decades ago! May just sheet entire wing .
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Post  fredvon4 on Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:11 am

OhBee ....and others....knock knock.....you post up

" hey.... I am fixed income...anyone have a spare covering Iron I can buy cheap"

Or you interweb search for nearest RC swap meet ....every thing you need is on sale sunday morning as the tables do NOT want to pack back home....wink


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Post  OhBee on Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:56 pm

Hey Fred! Whats up?......not interested in iron on coverings.  A little late in the game for me to learn new tricks......Having enough trouble trying to RELEARN the old ones!  But I DO appreciate the help!   Wink
No such a thing as swap meets around here. No hobby shops,no one with any interest !
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Post  Levent Suberk on Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:52 pm

I only use cellulosic household varnish as dope.
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Post  OhBee on Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:16 pm

I don't know if we even have anything like that over here! I've never seen it. Probably causes cancer in California! Every thing else does! Sounds like a good alternative though!
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Post  Levent Suberk on Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:01 pm

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Post  Levent Suberk on Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:35 pm

Wing covering material Eze_do10
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Post  OhBee on Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:55 pm

That looks like some good stuff!
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Post  fredvon4 on Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:19 pm

steve you are crippled by that dumb phone....save some pennies a tablet or used laptop is under 200 bucks.... but you do need a home internet connection...can be pricey or reasonable...
you are in Admin...Jackob's neck of minnesota...hook up...there absolutely swap meets within an hour of you....

pay attention young man..
I had two back to back strokes,,,I am 65 and my kids don't want this old crap...I am buying karma and practicing "pay it forward" like so many who gifted me stuff
I hope you were careful with the box and packaging ..my palsey ass just threw loose stuff in it
of the tree enya 5224 35s one has a new prop drive plate that needs attention.  it binds against the crank case nose when torqued down on a propeller....you fixed engines....I bet you have skills to face off the crankcase side of the drive plate to not bind
trust me brother I am brain damaged enough to not remember all in that care package....RSV1cox and Ken Cook can tell you all you need for care and feeding those engines...
one was from my youth in Oakland CA around 1971ish
even that one was never fully broken in....
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Post  ian1954 on Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:29 am

Levent Suberk wrote:Wing covering material Eze_do10

Hi Levent,

Deluxe Materials have a fantastic range of products for model builders but this test was not an accurate real world test. I would not hesitate to recommend EZE dope to anyone who suffers the consequences from real dope fumes but ...........

soaking the product in neat fuel doesn’t reflect what happens with hot exhaust residue.( Deluxe Materials do a very nice after run model cleaner )

I have found that this dope does not cope very well with the hot goo from nitro and diesel engines but softens and stains. While it does resist fuel spillage the goop produced from the exhaust has some very aggressive content.

I have seen some excellent tissue finishes with this material and it is easy to use and thin (water) but these have been with lightweight tissue. I am not sure that I would try it with silk, nylon .........there seems to be a definite art in trial and error for thinning this dope for a nice finish.

While the epoxy based fuel proofers are evil to use and clean up is messy - they are definitely fuel proof.

I usually apply a dedicated fuel proofer but this takes over a week to become fully “fuel resistant” and even then it is unlikely to be proof at over 25% nitro. It also comes with severe health warning while using it and contains a long list of unpronouncable chemicals.


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Post  Ken Cook on Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:49 am

It's been mentioned that economics are playing a huge decision here. The EZE product is not economical in terms of cost as it's just as much or more for the same amount of material. However, it seems as though it may be water cleanup reducing the need for thinner. As I originally stated, a roll of quality iron on can yield enough for 6 1/2A planes and more for less than $16. Cheaper iron on alternatives are available but they're certainly going to fail at a very early time in terms of pull back, seams releasing, and or coming off in their entirety. If it's a iron one needs, they can be had for less than what the dope costs. My dad used to cover with our household iron prior to Top Flite producing the hobby version irons.


Digging up some old bones, I came across a old post of some using a floor wax for attaching silkspan and tissue coverings. I have never tried this, I personally wouldn't try it but it says it works. People have successfully used a product called Future Floor wax which I think is available through Walmart. They brush it on bed the material into it. My concerns are that anything wax or resembling such is going to play hell with a finish. I could be totally incorrect here as I have read some interesting posts on it and many say it works fine. Experimenting is a big part of this hobby and if it does work, it certainly would provide a economical escape from killing our nervous systems with dope.
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Post  fredvon4 on Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:07 am

Future or cousin Mop n Glow are not really waxes I believe they are thinned clear acrylic lacquer.....
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Post  Levent Suberk on Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:00 pm

ian1954 wrote:
Levent Suberk wrote:Wing covering material Eze_do10

Hi Levent,

Deluxe Materials have a fantastic range of products for model builders but this test was not an accurate real world test. I would not hesitate to recommend EZE dope to anyone who suffers the consequences from real dope fumes but ...........

soaking the product in neat fuel doesn’t reflect what happens with hot exhaust residue.( Deluxe Materials do a very nice after run model cleaner )

I have found that this dope does not cope very well with the hot goo from nitro and diesel engines but softens and stains. While it does resist fuel spillage the goop produced from the exhaust  has some very aggressive content.

I have seen some excellent tissue finishes with this material and it is easy to use and thin (water) but these have been with lightweight tissue. I am not sure that I would try it with silk, nylon .........there seems to be a definite art in trial and error for thinning this dope for     a nice finish.

While the epoxy based fuel proofers are evil to use and clean up is messy - they are definitely fuel proof.

I usually apply a dedicated fuel proofer but this takes over a week to become fully “fuel resistant” and even then it is unlikely to be proof at over 25% nitro. It also comes with severe health warning while using it and contains a long list of unpronouncable chemicals.



Thanks Ian, I didn't know this. I only sent the information in Deluxe Materials web site and didn't try Eze Dope yet.
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