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Post  F4D Phantom II on Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:58 pm

I was looking at an old Air Trails Magazine from August 1951 and it shows a full size free plan for the Tiny Tim Racer by Frank Ehling.  In the plan it shows how to build it as an around the pole racer or controline. Do any of you guys have experience with around the pole flying? I think that it`s a nice looking little plane. here are some pics. This pics of the plan can be printed and you would have the full size plan.
                                                                                                                                  Juan
 Around the pole flying Hpim1412
 Around the pole flying Tiny_t11
 Around the pole flying Tiny_t10
 Around the pole flying Air_tr11
 Around the pole flying Air_tr10
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Post  roddie on Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:37 am

Here's an interesting thread that deals with the subject. RTP-1

and here.. RTP-2

The above two links are to CEF member Ian1954's RC/RTP projects. The threads contain some vids on other types of RTP flying too.
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Post  F4D Phantom II on Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:57 pm

Hello Roddie
I appreciate your help. I found the Round the pole interesting and the models shown on the videos did some fast flying in the limited airspace they were flown. I haven`t found a video of a small racer but I think I will try my hand at building a racer as the one found on the 1951 Air Trails just for fun.
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Post  roddie on Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:21 pm

Note the "round the Pole" version is set up to fly clockwise. This is because your common right-hand rotation propellers/engines torque-roll the model "left".. which will provide more positive line/tether-tension. It certainly looks easy enough to build.. and the article says it can be built in one evening. Looks like fun on a budget, either way you slice it!
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Post  F4D Phantom II on Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:03 pm

Hello roddie
                    I started but for me is not going to be an evening project. Frank Ehling was a very skilled modeler.
                                                                                                                                     Juan
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Post  F4D Phantom II on Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:42 pm

I already cut the wing and started sanding. I drew a pencil line  1 1/4 inch spanwise for it to be the high point of the airfoil. Using a flat piece of plywood with 80 grit sandpaper glued on to place the wing while sanding so it would not slide around. With two small clamps I placed a  1/16 inch piece of music wire and later a 1/32 wire close to edge of the board with the sandpaper for it to be a guide for the bevel I was sanding in the trialing edge of the wing. Since the wood I`m using is Hard Balsa I used 180 grit paper to sand the shapes.

 Around the pole flying Hpim1413
 Around the pole flying Hpim1415
 Around the pole flying Hpim1414
 Around the pole flying Hpim1416

I used a 3/32 music wire to shape the leading edge of the wing. The plans states that you can taper the wing from root to tip but I decided not to do it since it would require building a jig to be able to get it right. after getting it as close as I wanted I sanded the wing with 400 grit and rounded the leading edge.

 Around the pole flying Hpim1417
 Around the pole flying Hpim1418

I will post more pictures as I go along.
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Post  roddie on Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:53 pm

I like your technique Juan. I've never tried that.. but have thought about it. Keep up the good work! Thumbs Up Popcorn
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Post  NEW222 on Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:58 pm

Great idea, and an even better job! Well done.
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Post  getback on Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:23 am

Popcorn I like ur technic , Use what you got to get what U want . Thumbs Up
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Post  F4D Phantom II on Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:48 am

Thanks guys
                          I have done some work on the aluminum 1/32 thick landing gear. The drawing of the bend lines in the plan are incorrect. If you take a look at the side view that shows the L/G on the plane you notice that the l/g is raked foward and that the wheel axles are inline with the firewall. If you bend as shown you would have angle foward the gear  and it will have a positive angle in relation to the thrushline which will make them act as a canard that will push the nose up in flight. I changed the bend lines to be able to rake the l/g  without causing that problem. All bend lines in the gear have to be paralell. I made a tool to clamp the aluminum gear at the correct angle before placing them in the vise for bending and to provide the correct bend of 45 degrees. The bend has to have a small radius 2 to 3 times the thickness to avoid cracks on the aluminum at the bend.Here are some pics.
                                                                                                                                     Juan

 Around the pole flying Tiny_t12
 Around the pole flying Tiny_t13
 Around the pole flying Hpim1419
 Around the pole flying Hpim1420
 Around the pole flying Hpim1422
 Around the pole flying Hpim1425

 Around the pole flying Hpim1423
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Post  F4D Phantom II on Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:21 pm

I have done some work on the engine mount. The suggested 1/16 inch plywood for the firewall I thought that it was too thin to mount the Atwood .049 engine. i made mine out of 1/8 plywood and since I will be using wood screws I glued 2 small pieces of 1/8 ply 3/16 in diameter right behind the holes on the motor mount. I drilled thru them and threaded 2 wood screws to see how they fit. I epoxied the firewall to the cowl cheeks. I placed a piece of wax paper over the nose of the fuselage so I could remove the firewall and cheeks for shaping. Doing it this way is a lot easier than sanding them in place. Still have to do some sanding and checking engine and flying surfaces alignment before I glue everything together.
                                                                                                                               Juan

 Around the pole flying Hpim1426
 Around the pole flying Hpim1427
 Around the pole flying Hpim1511

 Around the pole flying Hpim1510
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Post  roddie on Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:19 pm

Very nice neat work Juan!
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Post  getback on Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:39 am

Looking Good Juan !! Is there going to bee offset in the engine , since it is a V tail. Airplane
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Post  F4D Phantom II on Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:44 pm

Thanks guys.  Getback there is no right thrust or rudder offset since it`s going to be flying in a short string. I will try first with a pole low to the ground to see how it behaves after it runs out of fuel. Since I have no fuelproof dope I gave it a coat of clear epoxy removing the excess with a paper towel and when it dried I did some light sanding. I painted the canopy and the wing tips. I haven`t glued everything together because is easier to handle individual parts for masking and painting. I made some numbers and a Texaco aviation decal on my inkjet printer  but I`m still thinking on painting other parts. I guess I could do a checkerboard decal for the tail but I would have to order some decal paper
                                                                                                             Juan




 Around the pole flying Hpim1512
. Here is a pic.
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Post  Ken Cook on Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:44 am

Juan, do they show details of the pole? As long as I've been around this hobby, I've seen only 2 of them for this particular 1/2A and 1/4A racing. In one of my American Modelers, I can recall the plans for the pole. I just don't know which one it is. In my parts, it seemed like the clubs that were north of me by a hour or two favored round the pole flying. I'm assuming due to the fact that north Jersey and New York was more of a concrete playground, this type of flying would've made more sense but it's only a theory. I would love to give this a shot. Sadly, most of my club members are not building anything like they used to. Everyone older has passed on. Those that are left are the seniors now leaving only about 5 of us who build anything on a regular basis.
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Post  aspeed on Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:30 pm

I always wondered about RTP.  It seems like it would not work without any control, yet guys do it anyway.  I found planes start to oscillate in any wind, and eventually crash.  Even extremely  nose heavy and small elevators on regular control line trainers have needed some control in my experience.  Saw some indoor guys with RTP rubber powered creations on the utube, and know of a couple contraptions that allowed control from outside the circle using a handle and transferring control to a pole. One called the Revolution.  I also tried a micro foamy RC  Sukoi that was a bit too fast for indoor and too light for outdoor just with a line to keep it centred.  I held it on the back of the radio and used the radio for control.  It worked fine, but the lines went slack whenever it got a bit high, so loops were not on the agenda.  I had  a bit of tip weight, maybe needed more.  No more gym to play around in any more. I'll keep  watching here to see any further new updates. Here is the one pic. Maybe You know who is the owner Ken? It is the Philly Flyers. Looks well made but pretty old, maybe around 1960. I have showed it on some forums before but no one seems to know much about it. Looks low to the ground and has holes for anchors. https://www.facebook.com/PhillyFliersCL/photos/a.513142608755878.1073741825.513140418756097/731890976881039/?type=1&theater
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Post  Ken Cook on Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:48 pm

That is Dan's device. Dan purchased that some years back and we've used it flying our club trainers. The yellow metal flag looking portion is where the line clips connect to. The problem is the ratio that the device operates. What happens is that you get a somewhat delayed response when flying. If you need the plane to go up, give it a 1/4 lap in advance. Dan has redesigned the yellow part but we haven't had the device out at the field lately. Dan has a entire collection of all aluminum planes which are quite rare. Some have Dynajets, others are control line scale planes, speed as well not too mention freeflight planes with all aluminum formers, ribs and skins. Dan recently acquired one in particular with a fairly large wingspan. He plans on using either a spark ignition engine or a vintage glow to fly it with using the device.
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Post  aspeed on Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:16 pm

Dan is a busy guy. I am happy to know that the device works. I can't imagine why there is that much of a delay. I guess stunts are out of the question. I thought something like that would be good for control line speed. I can't quite keep up to the planes at least in the pylon, and am sure I am not the only one. A friend tried a little combat plane with aluminum EDM cut ribs and carbon fiber spars. It worked ok. I think he just wanted to try it.
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Post  aspeed on Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:28 pm

As a separate thought. When I was a kid, I tried launching a control line plane with a fuel jug in the mid radius of the circle. I put the starting equipment in the centre of the circle and held on to the plane and let go at the same time as holding the handle. The lines were wrapped around the jug. It worked pretty good, but felt a bit odd. The fuel jug was almost empty and it moved a bit but it was just an .049. Sort of a round the pole/jug system for 1/2 a lap.
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Post  getback on Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:22 am

Juan , that plane is going to look nice when done / surprising enough sometimes the least is the best ! Very Happy Popcorn
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Post  F4D Phantom II on Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:28 pm

Hello Guys
                       I have been searching thru my stash of old magazines looking for more information about RTP. I found some in the March 1961 of Model Airplane News. there is an article on indoor rubber Rtp. I will post info below. I also found an article by paul Plecan on the June 1961 American Modeler which I`m posting here. I was also interested on the center pole information which was lacking on the Tiny tim plan and instructions. From what I gather this model should be flown on a 10 foot tether but it doesn`t mention how high the pole should be.  My plan is to star with a pole of  12 to 15 inches to see how the little airplane behaves. I still have to make a gas tank and the pole. I`m waiting on some 1/16 brass tubing and music wire I ordered. here are the plans enjoy.  

There is more information on the March 1960 of American Modeler Page 36 but I think I don`t have the issue if any of you has the magazine please post the info.
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 Around the pole flying Rtp_ru10
 Around the pole flying Rtp_ru11
 Around the pole flying Rtp_ti12
 Around the pole flying Rtp_ti13
 Around the pole flying Rtp_ti11
 Around the pole flying Rtp_ti14
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Post  F4D Phantom II on Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:51 pm

Hello Guys
                I have done some more work on the little racer. I made a gas tank and glued all the parts except the dowel that holds the tether wire. I also made a cover for the pylon .I bought a few more books searching for more information and I`m waiting for them to arrive. I also found an article on Air Trails that I`m posting about the 1952 Perdue college pylon racers. Here are a few pictures.
                                                                                                                                  Juan

 Around the pole flying Hpim1514
 Around the pole flying Hpim1513
 Around the pole flying Hpim1515
 Around the pole flying Hpim1516
 Around the pole flying Hpim1517
 Around the pole flying Rtp_ai11
 Around the pole flying Rtp_ai12
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Post  Kim on Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:50 am

Very cool and great craftsmanship !!!!
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Post  Ken Cook on Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:32 am

Juan, what is your plans with using props? I see these guys were using 7/8 pitch props. I really find it hard to believe the Atwood was swinging those props. I suppose when you dump nitro to it as they did back then, it was possible. It's just that the crankshafts are not real beefy. The other thing and maybe by this time this was beginning to fade but the Atwood Shriek runs circles around the standard Wasp. I did have a article where pylon was resurrected and they were using Pee Wee .020's. and achieving similar speeds but I don't recall the line length.
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Post  F4D Phantom II on Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:10 pm

Hello Ken
                  I`m going to be using a thimble Drome 4.5 x 4 propeller on the engine. I have a pair of new Atwood shrieks and might try one of them after I get the hang of it. I do have a  Power Prop wood 4.5 x 6 and using it as a pattern I could try to make a higher pitch prop but since I`m not racing anybody the goal is to see the plane fly.  The Perdue guys flew on 15 feet lines and their fastest speed was with a stock propeller. They suggested a 5 x 7 or 5 x 8  for the Wasp. Having no experience on RTP I can`t comment on their performance. Sent you a PM.
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 Around the pole flying Hpim1518
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