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Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  NEW222 Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:12 pm

And another thing about the crankcases to pretty them up should you desire. I have used Mothers Aluminum polish on a rotary tool to have them shine away. Can use on teh crankcase as well as the tank on a 'Bee' style engine. I start out with 400-600 gris sandpaper and oil working my way finer to I believe 800 I used last. You can go even finer for a shinier engine as the scratches will be nearly invisable. Take some time and patience to do, but well worth it if you do. I however do not do any sanding on the nose/front, or rear of the crankcase when I do this.

Here is the link to the thread I did on it.

Babe Bee Restoration
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  davidll1984 Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:16 pm

Look Good remember go gentle on inside cylinder on piston if use steel wool very carful y prefer use car wax step 1 Not valve laping compound and just to polish litle like one micron but not mutch as just very fines scratch inside cylinder on piston wil let escape compression and buble on exaust port al that Good compression and performance lost if piston go up and down without friction its ok put engines back To one pice try it. if Feel like scratching inside tight passe the exaust opening it need polish steel wool wat ever u want To try just carful
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  Bretherman Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:39 pm

@NEW222 wrote:Good job on your first disassembly! Always remember to remove the cylinder AND piston prior to removing the drive plate. Rumor has it you can really do a number to the piston if you don't.... I may, or may not  have personal knowledge of this..... Shocked

Just to throw another thing at you about removing the driveplate in case you did not see or read about it. Another option, of which I personally use and prefer, is to use a standard shop vice. If you do have one and want to try it, it is also simple. As you did, put the screw in like the video, open the vice up wide enough for the crankcase, put a piece of wood on the jaw where the rear of the crankcase will rest against, and slowly tighten it / close the jaws. I prefer this as it is just a nice slow steady pressure. Again, both ways work, and this is just the way I prefer to do it.

When it comes time to reassemble the engine, carefully put the driveplate against the crankshaft and you will feel it 'grab' telling you it is in the proper place to tighten it up.

I'm not going to lie, I had to Google what a drive plate was.
After reading your comment a few times, and examining the parts, I understand now that the splines will have to line up. Thank you! The assembly makes a little more sense now.
One day I'll have a nice vice... one day...
Just the words sound more pleasant than a hammer.

@NEW222 wrote:And another thing about the crankcases to pretty them up should you desire. I have used Mothers Aluminum polish on a rotary tool to have them shine away. Can use on teh crankcase as well as the tank on a 'Bee' style engine. I start out with 400-600 gris sandpaper and oil working my way finer to I believe 800 I used last. You can go even finer for a shinier engine as the scratches will be nearly invisable. Take some time and patience to do, but well worth it if you do. I however do not do any sanding on the nose/front, or rear of the crankcase when I do this.

Here is the link to the thread I did on it.

Babe Bee Restoration

I really would like to try and shine it up nice. If it runs, that'll be the right of passage Laughing

@davidll1984 wrote:Look Good remember go gentle on inside cylinder on piston if use steel wool  very carful y prefer use car wax step 1 Not valve laping compound and just to polish litle like one micron but not mutch as just very fines scratch inside cylinder on piston wil let escape compression and buble on exaust port al that Good compression and performance lost if piston go up and down without friction its ok put engines back To one pice try it. if Feel like scratching inside tight passe the exaust opening  it need polish steel wool wat ever u want To try just carful

If I end up needing some steel wool to get anything off that vinegar and a toothbrush can't, I'll be sure to take care. Best case scenario, I will scarcely, if at all, have to use it. You're right, I'll spot check to see how the engine feels after working through this part.
Thank you!
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  OhBee Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:21 am

FYI...Evaporust is WAY better at rust removal than vinegar. I've used both on mountain bike parts. Nothing is rustier than the last set of suspension forks I had to deal with...stuck tight for years. Now functioning quite nicely!. Makes crusty old sprockets shine like new.
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  fredvon4 Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:08 am

did some one say shine it up?

Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 20210110
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  OhBee Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:10 pm

Oooh!....Sweet Fred!
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  rsv1cox Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:35 pm

@OhBee wrote:FYI...Evaporust is WAY better at rust removal than vinegar. I've used both on mountain bike parts. Nothing is rustier than the last set of suspension forks I had to deal with...stuck tight for years. Now functioning quite nicely!.  Makes crusty old sprockets shine like new.

Your right OB, it does work much better than vinegar. But it changes character over time and disintegrates to something that looks like what you blow out of your nose after a bad cold. "Clings to vertical surfaces" forget about that.

Still it works quite well, and many a cylinder of mine (and other things) has spent a couple of hours in it. But beware, it will remove anodizing as well.

Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 P1010662


Vinegar is cheaper and is available anywhere.
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  Bretherman Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:26 pm

@fredvon4 wrote:did some one say shine it up?

Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 20210110

Holy smoke!

You wouldn't mind sharing your process for that would you? Eyebrows

I want to attempt sanding and polishing, but have never actually done so before.

My guess would be sand maybe: 800 up to 2000, then hit the buffing and polishing compound?
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  Bretherman Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:29 pm

@rsv1cox wrote:
@OhBee wrote:FYI...Evaporust is WAY better at rust removal than vinegar. I've used both on mountain bike parts. Nothing is rustier than the last set of suspension forks I had to deal with...stuck tight for years. Now functioning quite nicely!.  Makes crusty old sprockets shine like new.

Your right OB, it does work much better than vinegar.  But it changes character over time and disintegrates to something that looks like what you blow out of your nose after a bad cold.  "Clings to vertical surfaces" forget about that.  

Still it works quite well, and many a cylinder of mine (and other things) has spent a couple of hours in it.  But beware, it will remove anodizing as well.  

Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 P1010662


Vinegar is cheaper and is available anywhere.  

I've been convinced to buy a bottle of the stuff after watching all the YouTube restoration videos.

Hey, as long as the snot still works Laughing
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  OhBee Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:39 pm

Ya well...this is about as piGetting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 20210116
cky as I get when it comes to polishing!
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  rsv1cox Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:45 pm

@Bretherman wrote:
@rsv1cox wrote:
@OhBee wrote:FYI...Evaporust is WAY better at rust removal than vinegar. I've used both on mountain bike parts. Nothing is rustier than the last set of suspension forks I had to deal with...stuck tight for years. Now functioning quite nicely!.  Makes crusty old sprockets shine like new.

Your right OB, it does work much better than vinegar.  But it changes character over time and disintegrates to something that looks like what you blow out of your nose after a bad cold.  "Clings to vertical surfaces" forget about that.  

Still it works quite well, and many a cylinder of mine (and other things) has spent a couple of hours in it.  But beware, it will remove anodizing as well.  


Vinegar is cheaper and is available anywhere.  

I've been convinced to buy a bottle of the stuff after watching all the YouTube restoration videos.

Hey, as long as the snot still works Laughing

We model railroaders have something similar:  Smile

Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 Ebay_b10
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  NEW222 Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:54 pm

Interesting Bob. I never knew there was a gel version. Would be curious as to whether one works better than the other. Gel vs liquid. Or what the real differences are between the two.
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  davidll1984 Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:18 pm

Dont use gun blue inside cylinder noting go inside m'y cylinder other than its piston
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  Jason_WI Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:41 pm

@fredvon4 wrote:did some one say shine it up?

Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 20210110

All that bling! Better hope Bob doesn’t see that shiny bee. Smile
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  rsv1cox Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:32 am

@NEW222 wrote:Interesting Bob. I never knew there was a gel version. Would be curious as to whether one works better than the other. Gel vs liquid. Or what the real differences are between the two.

I have used both, I couldn't see a difference. Liquid better for emersion, gel sticks better on vertical surfaces but I just wipe on the liquid keeping like a painter - a wet edge and using a cotton ball or cloth. But, as I have said here before I had PVC pipe capped on one end and filled with bluing for full emersion of barrels, gives a much more uniform appearance.

I always plugged my gun barrels with a tapered wooden dowel but never my model engine cylinders. Just burnished the interior with a light oil and a brass brush.

Yeah, I think that shiny engine would look great in gun metal blue.... Smile
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Help! A Little Bling-bling

Post  sosam117 Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:01 am

If you listen and do things right, you'll have a good looking engine!

Two Thimble Drones -- one before cleaning and one after cleaning and buffing
Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 Thimbl11


My slightly polished up Thimble Drones.
Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 3-thim10
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Help! Completed restoring a Super Tiger 20 (Mfg. in 1970)

Post  sosam117 Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:31 pm

Got this Super Tiger 20 for $55.00.
It looked good but was really stuck.
Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 005_su10
Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 006_su10
Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 007_su10

Took the head off and found the problem:
Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 008_su11
Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 009_su11

Using a paint "heat gun" to soften up the hardened castor oil to get the rest of the engine apart and removed the bearings:
Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 St-20_10
Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 St-20_11
Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 St-20_12
Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 St-20_13
Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 St-20_15
Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 St-20_14
Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 St-20_16
Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 St-20_17

Had to replace the bearings.
So I ordered from Boca bearings a sealed bearing for the front of the engine. The original was just a ball raced bearing where dirt could enter from the front into the crankcase. And an exact replacement bearing for the back of the crankcase housing.


Made new gaskets for the back plate and the cylinder head.
The gasket material was from a sheet of gasket material from Enya, which I ordered a year ago from Bob Brooks.
Having all the different punch sizes for making the gaskets fairly easy.

Sonic cleaned all the engine parts in a sonic ("heated" at 140°) solution and in the bath for 30 minutes.

And here is the completed Super Tiger 20 engine (Mfg. in 1970) reassembled / refurbished:
Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 St-20_18
Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 St-20_19
Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 St-20_20
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  Bretherman Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:30 pm

Wow Sosam117,

Your engines look fantastic. Thank you for the tear down and rebuild of that Super Tiger 20!
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  Bretherman Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:41 pm

Alright, so, I might have messed up.

I put the parts in vinegar, and checked on it every now and then.

Saw little bubbles, and it looked like it was working, so I figured all was great.

Picture of parts after about one day in vinegar:
Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 Img_2032

Looking really good, right?!

Then I got busy, and figured, ah what the hell, I'll leave it in for another day.

Picture of parts after about two days in vinegar:
Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 Img_2033

Ok, so now everything looks black. This is when I started getting worried.

I took a toothbrush, and started scrubbing everything down.

Then I took some acetone and scrubbed it with that.

In the end, it looks like the vinegar might have gone passed the sweet spot, and corroded everything.

It all looks like it has a cruddy coat of black on it.

Pictures of parts after cleaning:
Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 Img_2034

I guess the only good news I have is, I've upgraded from WD-40, to Hoppes Number 9 Gun Oil:
Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 Img_2036

I've rubbed everything down with that, and will leave it until I have some time to get to it.

I think I have no choice but to break out to #0000 steel wool.

What do you think?
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  944_Jim Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:00 pm

I'd say drop the crank in the block with some oil and see how it feels. Do the same with piston and cylinder. Of those two feel good, then install the piston on the crank in the block with cylinder and see how all four work together.

From there, add head and backplate and do another oily check.

At this point you should have about an bour-mabey ninety minutes in quick checks. If all is good, then fire it up!

Worry about the appearance later.
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  Bretherman Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:08 pm

@944_Jim wrote:I'd say drop the crank in the block with some oil and see how it feels. Do the same with piston and cylinder. Of those two feel good, then install the piston on the crank in the block with cylinder and see how all four work together.

From there, add head and backplate and do another oily check.

At this point you should have about an bour-mabey ninety minutes in quick checks. If all is good, then fire it up!

Worry about the appearance later.

I put the piston in (after oiling it everything) and it actually feels smooth. But, to the touch, all the parts feel rough.
I guess I'll see with the crankshaft. I'm worried about that one.
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  NEW222 Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:58 pm

Well, I wish I could tell you why, but vinegar and as well my Evaporust both have done that to me. Taking regular looking steel parts and making them black. You did not do anything wrong. It is just the nature of teh beast. I too would be very interested in why things do indeed turn colors. But I do know if you use a very fine steel wool or sandpaper with a drop of oil while your crank is in a drill you can get the shine back. This I have done, and also recently did this on my OS FS48 Surpass. And that engine crankshaft came out very black! Sorry, no pictures though. As for the piston, I cannot say or tell you what you may use to get it back without possibly doing any damage, so I will leave that for someone more knowledgable than I.
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  Levent Suberk Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:58 pm

Vinegar is OK for cleaning for steel, but for only one or two hours soaking. Soaking for two days is a big no no. I think that you need a new cylinder and piston set.

Also don't soak aluminum parts in ethyl alcohol for days. Ethyl alcohol don't eat aluminum but blackens it.

Most effective way for removing rust is using kerosene and a stiff tooth brush.
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  davidll1984 Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:23 am

Yes plastiques brush no coper just dont use gun brush it have abrasive in plastiques brush u want To use nilon only is the picturs of m'y tool To remove old varnish oil gum rust for .049 .010 Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie - Page 2 16107010
Y have al size even for m'y smaler tee dee .010 up To .15 just cant Find the two other for .020 .15
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

Post  944_Jim Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:21 am

I say "Assemble and Run." Let the engine polish those surfaces back into operational status. Any material you take off now, will also loosen the engine up. It may actually loosen too much. If I were to clean up anything before running, it would be only the prop plate splines and crank splines.

By leaving the sacrificial surface in place and running it, the engine may actually "break in" all over again.

Unfortunately, all you are left with is to test some ideas.

I have a deal for you:
If you try it the way I suggest and the engine becomes ruined, then I'll send along another old one. But, in order to take my offer, you have to do a couple things first. Assemble the engine, oil the engine, test by hand, then run it. Last step is to document with pictures any failure that occurs.
Best case, you have a runner.
Worst case, WE ALL know not to do that anymore (and why). But if it does become worst case, you are only out the time to try it, and the time to wait on the replacement...and we all learn from it.
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Help! Re: Getting Ready to Attempt some Restorations - Newbie

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