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Post  EXModelEngines Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:09 pm

Does anyone know what 'Booster' refers to in Diesel Fuel? Since acquiring the remainder of the Davis Diesel 1/2A parts and fuel I am reviewing the fuel formulas for 1/2A and ABC engines and cannot figure out what 'Booster' is.

Matt
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Post  davidll1984 Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:23 pm

Can this be cetane? Equivalent to octane in gasoline  for diesel Not sure whether to use for the models engines mabe Somting like cetane for modèle engine  I think this youtuber has a good example i have trust bardahl in the past
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Post  EXModelEngines Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:59 pm

Thanks for the thought - certainly possible!

I've got about 64 quarts of ABC fuel and trying to figure the formulas to make some 1/2A out of it.
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Post  davidll1984 Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:20 pm

How much would it cost me for a pint or half pint of abc diesel fuel? Y have large engine one big irvine .40 diesel just want To try the engine ?
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Post  EXModelEngines Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:46 pm

@davidll1984 wrote:How much would it cost me for a pint or half pint of abc diesel fuel? Y have large engine one big irvine .40 diesel just want To try the engine ?

I would only sell in quarts as we do not have containers to make up smaller amounts and not going to buy these as I am not sure if we will continue to make it after what I have on hand it gone. The likely cost would be between $12 and $15 for a quart.

Also, we cannot ship internationally only to the lower 48 in the USA.
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Post  czarobest Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:48 pm

I think "booster" might mean additive that increases the cetane number to accelerate the combustion process and facilitate ignition. As far as I know in Poland they used to use amyl nitrate in amounts up to about 1-1.5% (by volume), today, colleagues recommend for health reasons other substances difficult to buy in small quantities. Like this - https://nitroerg.pl/en/produkt/diesel-fuel-additive/

However, using too many of these additives (>3-4%) will not get better results and unfortunately it can damages the engine. However, good quality motors will work well without them too. Unless you want to use them in racing, or they are extremely difficult to fire or engines are of poor quality or worn out.

I fired up a heavily used PAW engine with no additives without any problems and it ran fine Smile. Of course, with the addition it would probably have more power.

PS: According to Wieslaw Schier's book in Rossi 2.5D or Super Tigre 2.5D engine 1% amyl nitrate caused 45% power increase and 1.5% nitrite caused about 60% power increase  Very Happy
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Post  davidll1984 Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:03 pm

In Canada its Not posible To chip the fuel ? Doh! at that price Would be a pleasure to try tink y have To try make m'y own fuel now how do i Find amyl nitrate ? Sound like Good for performance Cool i like performance Eyebrows m'y webra mkII wil like that stuf ?
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Post  EXModelEngines Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:09 pm

@czarobest wrote:I think "booster" might mean additive that increases the cetane number to accelerate the combustion process and facilitate ignition. As far as I know in Poland they used to use amyl nitrate in amounts up to about 1-1.5% (by volume), today, colleagues recommend for health reasons other substances difficult to buy in small quantities. Like this - https://nitroerg.pl/en/produkt/diesel-fuel-additive/

However, using too many of these additives (>3-4%) will not get better results and unfortunately it can damages the engine. However, good quality motors will work well without them too. Unless you want to use them in racing, or they are extremely difficult to fire or engines are of poor quality or worn out.

I fired up a heavily used PAW engine with no additives without any problems and it ran fine Smile. Of course, with the addition it would probably have more power.

PS: According to Wieslaw Schier's book in Rossi 2.5D or Super Tigre 2.5D engine 1% amyl nitrate caused 45% power increase and 1.5% nitrite caused about 60% power increase  Very Happy

Great information - thank you!
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Post  EXModelEngines Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:11 pm

@davidll1984 wrote:In Canada its Not posible To chip the fuel ? Doh!  at that price Would be a pleasure to try tink y have To try make m'y own fuel now how do i Find amyl nitrate ? Sound like Good for performance Cool i like performance Eyebrows m'y webra mkII wil like that stuf ?

I would be surprised if UPS would allow it. All the fuel goes UPS ground so technically I suppose it could travel to Canada via ground but I cannot imagine the shipping costs if it was allowed. I could ask our UPS rep.
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Post  davidll1984 Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:33 pm

Ok I will wait to know if possible at what cost aproximative to shawinigan qc if its Not posible option is To Find that booster sound Good amyl nitrate boost up To 45% So even diluting could significantly improve performance Here the good time to fly is often very cold humid in the morning when the wind is calm making some of its activities less competitive diesel engines hard To start I have already made my own diesel my not very efficient difficult to start Test not very conclusive result bent conecting rod in one of m'y cox engine next one Ended up starting after a lot of hard work For lack of experience I gave up Now redy to try again wit larger engine wit cox engine To I have gained experience since time
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Diesel Fuel Question Empty Mixing own diesel 1/2A diesel fuel

Post  sosam117 Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:12 pm

Matt,
I have mixed my own diesel fuel years ago.
My "1/2A" -- "Plane Fuel" has 30% ether, 43% to 44% kerosene, and 25% caster oil and maybe 1% to 2% amyl nitrate.
I have 4 gallons left of 50% either and 50% kerosene to mix up the fuel I need. (special order from Red Max -in 2005)

Diesel Fuel Question Red_ma10
Diesel Fuel Question Red_ma11

I had one quart bottle of Amyl Nitrate "Booster".
The little 1/2A engines are better to start and run with 1% to 2% of "booster"
The booster reduces the need for a higher compression ratio.

The caster oil I use is from Sig Mfg. company.
Diesel Fuel Question Sig_ca10

If you need help/information on mixing diesel fuel, Allen Heinrich is the only one I know that mixes diesel fuel anymore.
He sells his diesel fuel in only quart cans.
If I call him ahead of time and I go out to the Eloy contest ( Martin Luthor King weekend) I'll get a gallon of diesel fuel from him.

Allen Heinrich information:
4184 South Roberts Road
Fort Mojave, AZ 86426-6330
AerodyneAL@aol.com

One more thing.
I modify the fuel cans I have so that I can open and close the cans without using pliers on the cap and ruining the cap's seal.

Diesel Fuel Question Img_0068
Diesel Fuel Question Img_0067

The cans are from the big box store that had the "pre-mixed" 2 stroke fuel in it.
I roughed up the can then painted them with high temp red paint ( that I had on hand).

One thing that is important is to make sure you have a good seal on the cap so the either does not evaporate!
I even have a special bottle (I purchased from Dr. Diesel -- a number of times cause other "friends" borrowed it and never saw it again --- well, until the next time I saw "that" friend -- by then I bought another "new" bottle).

Here it is and it's nice to have! ( it is next to my "old" can of Davis Diesel fuel)
It's called "ValveSpout" It has a valve at the top (end) of the fuel line to open/close to keep the either in the bottle between fueling.
Diesel Fuel Question Davis_10


Last edited by sosam117 on Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:27 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : spelling error and removed photo)
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Post  Oldenginerod Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:32 am

I really find it hard to believe that the small amount of Amyl Nitrate can increase power by 45%. I don't think this is possible. The Amyl Nitrate helps to stabilise the ignition, causing a more even burn. I think it would assist starting more than running.
I wouldn't advertise the fact that you have Amyl Nitrate. It's a controlled drug in most countries and you might either get into trouble with authorities, or find the local Amyl sniffers at your back door. affraid

You can get Cetane booster from auto parts stores. Diesel trucks use it, particularly in colder climates. You do need to read the data sheet because the active ingredient you want is in relatively small percentage. You need to factor in the "kerosene" (Naptha) portion of the booster into your kerosene %
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Post  Ken Cook Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:21 am

I used to get my diesel fuel from Red Max. Just prior to the world coming to a end last year, a few of us brought out our diesels. We were comparing my diesel fuel to the Red Max fuel that was being preciously distributed to the rest of us. We concluded that my diesel fuel offered virtually no change in needle setting or compression when running back to back. However, my Davis Diesel was certainly different. What I believe was that Davis uses more oil than I do. I use 25% mostly Benol castor oil. Not that color has anything to do with it but Davis was also almost clear whereas the Red Max was red. I'm sure that was just a oil dye. My fuel also has Amyl Nitrate in it. I certainly don't see the percentage difference in power as noted. I mixed one qt with Amsoil Cetane and one with the Amyl and conclusively, I can't tell the difference. On another note, I know someone who just visited Red Max fuels and mentioned the need for diesel and I think this might have gotten the wheels turning again.
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Post  czarobest Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:55 am

I, unfortunately, rely mostly on what I have heard and read.
However Wieslaw Schier is very respected author and modeler in Poland, there is a lot of information about fuel in his book, but it is probably only in Polish language. So I can trust his measurements. Of course it all depends on the engine, maybe older units react better, and newer more refined ones don't get such power increase  Very Happy .  As the author himself wrote a lot also depends on the engine design. There are several other additives in the book that, along with amyl nitrite, make the engine run and rev even better and reduce the effect of overheating. For example, 1.5% nitrobenzene Smile.

I rely on this book by Wieslaw Schier: (and information from colleagues who have extensive experience with engines and their use in racing Smile)
Diesel Fuel Question Zrzut_10

And here is a graph from this book, I added English descriptions
Diesel Fuel Question Zrzut_10
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Post  sosam117 Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:26 am

@Oldenginerod wrote:I really find it hard to believe that the small amount of Amyl Nitrate can increase power by 45%.  I don't think this is possible.  The Amyl Nitrate helps to stabilise the ignition, causing a more even burn.  I think it would assist starting more than running.
I wouldn't advertise the fact that you have Amyl Nitrate.  It's a controlled drug in most countries and you might either get into trouble with authorities, or find the local Amyl sniffers at your back door. affraid

You can get Cetane booster from auto parts stores.  Diesel trucks use it, particularly in colder climates.  You do need to read the data sheet because the active ingredient you want is in relatively small percentage.  You need to factor in the "kerosene" (Naptha) portion of the booster into your kerosene %

Yes, I know the properties of the Amyl Nitrate and am very careful with it (I wear gloves and mix it outside!)
It is the main ingredient for the heart medication pills. Also used for crack cocaine ( making it into a rock form).
1st and last time I'll be posting that photo as well!
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Post  sosam117 Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:38 am

I have found using the "Booster" helps in starting the small 1/2A engines.
On the bigger engines (2.5cc on up) the Booster is really not needed. Unless you'll be flying in 50 to 60 degrees weather.
Then a little Booster helps out in cooler weather.

The down side of using Amyl Nitrate is that it is corrosive and if you don't used a little oil at the end of the day,
the next week you fly you'll see a little rust on your engine caused by the Amyl Nitrate.

The other stuff I used smelled like shoe polish ( something benzine).
Which was more dangerous than the Amyl nitrate.
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Post  sosam117 Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:44 am

@Ken Cook wrote:               I used to get my diesel fuel from Red Max. Just prior to the world coming to a end last year, a few of us brought out our diesels. We were comparing my diesel fuel to the Red Max fuel that was being preciously distributed to the rest of us. We concluded that my diesel fuel offered virtually no change in needle setting or compression when running back to back. However, my Davis Diesel was certainly different. What I believe was that Davis uses more oil than I do. I use 25% mostly Benol castor oil. Not that color has anything to do with it but Davis was also almost clear whereas the Red Max was red. I'm sure that was just a oil dye. My fuel also has Amyl Nitrate in it. I certainly don't see the percentage difference in power as noted. I mixed one qt with Amsoil Cetane and one with the Amyl and conclusively, I can't tell the difference. On another note, I know someone who just visited Red Max fuels and mentioned the need for diesel and I think this might have gotten the wheels turning again.

I hope that Red Max starts to make the diesel fuel again?

I always used their diesel fuel and liked it when you could call them and ask to make a special blend (for an additional cost).
The red color was just a coloring in their fuel for diesel. They used coloring in their glow fuel for nitro percentages. ( easy identifiers)
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Post  getback Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:21 am

Matt , i hope you will post here when the diesel fuel will bee available St.Pats Beers
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Post  EXModelEngines Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:53 pm

Thanks to all of those who provided input - very, very helpful! Thank you!

1. The mix on the booster: Based on the information that was provided when I acquired the Davis Diesel items a booster additive is only between 1.5% and 2% depending on if it is considered 1/2A or ABC fuel.

2. The primary difference between the two is the oil content, particularly castor. The 1/2A is 24% while the ABC is a lower content at 12%.

3. At the moment we only have the ABC fuel which was mixed and packed in quarts. There are 96 quarts in total. I am not sure if I will be re-mixing any of the fuel I currently have since I do not have all the proper equipment. I will most probably leave it up to the end-user to add castor to the mix to bring up the total. It would still not be perfect since the ABC vs. 1/2A mix is not only exclusive to adding castor but would be close.

4. The ABC will likely be priced at $13.95 per quart. Shipping (most likely) will be only for the contiguous USA since it must be shipped ground. Rates will vary based on location, but most likely range between $10 - $15. I still have an inquiry out to my UPS rep to see if it can be shipped to Canada, but even so it would be more expensive and potentially subject to Hazmat fees if it could even be shipped.

Matt
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Post  ffkiwi Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:35 pm

'booster' is a bit of a crossover from fullsize practice-but it refers to 'cetane booster'.....which is a meaningless concept for our model engine fuels-in reality it is an ignition smoother-which acts to promote smoother ignition and combustion and reduce detonation. In NO WAY can it be considered a 'power booster' in any way akin to nitromethane in glow engines. As has been covered in some posts above-it it only used in small proportions-generally in the range of 1.5-2.5%...and this is very much a situation of 'more is not better...'

For any particular engine-and a particular fuel-there is an ideal % of additive-which is generally somewhere around the 2% mark fortunately-and most decent fuels are formulated to contain about this amount. The type of additive varies over the years-amyl nitrATE was the traditional additive of choice, amyl nitrITE was used when amyl nitrate was unavailable (and required more to be used for the same effect), isopropyl nitrate was popular in the UK in more recent times 80s and 90s, and these days people generally use the US sourced 'DII' 'diesel ignition improver' [which is at least an accurate description of what it does!] in one or other of its commercial forms-which these days is 2EHN-that is 2-ethyl hexyl nitrate.

In practice ANY organic simple straight or branched chain hydrocarbon nitrate seems to work-or at least anything in the range C-3 (IPN) up to C-8 (2EHN)....outside of that range they're either too volatile-or too viscous to be much use in the fuel blend. The traditional amyl nitrate is of course a C-5 chain...so bang in the middle of the usable range.

the truly anal....such as team race fliers-will formulate their fuels to cope with the weather conditions on the day-and will frequently adjust the booster /DIII levels by as little as +/- 0.05% to get the optimum-as too much nitrate for the engine results in overheating and other handling deterioration.

The EFFECT of 'booster'/'ignition improver' is two fold: to damp out the misfire that often occurs at higher revs (>10,000rpm) and it also reduces the compression setting required for smooth running slightly-so stressing the engine less-with beneficial effects on long term wear. there is a minor downside-because you are dealing with combusting trace amounts of an organic nitrate-the residues are slightly acidic in nature-so will if left in an engine for a long time without flushing-contribute to corrosion....but this should not be considered any worse than what nitromethane combustion residues can do in a glow engine-especially a 4-stroke....

Why is DII the additive of choice....? Probably for no other reason than it is produced in quantity-for full size diesel use-by the railway tanker car....whereas the other candidates such as IPN or amyl nitrate are a) harder to find, or b) expensive or c) restricted availability either for medical reasons or illicit usage...

Can I take off my organic chemist's hat now?
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Post  getback Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:12 am

Ok i don't know so i am asking , what is ABC Fuel used for? Alum./Brass /Chrome engines ?
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Post  Coxfledgling Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:56 am

Aluminium piston running in a brass chromed cylinder bore...

Don't thing the ally piston is pure ally, must be an alloy, with what I do not know.
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Post  gkamysz Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:59 am

Davis never shared any details publicly about what he was doing. Though, I think he was vocal about the 1/1/1 mix having far too much oil especially for larger engines. He did figure out that ball bearing ABC diesels didn't need much oil at all and may have been using synthetic? F2C racers knew this a long time ago.

Those store bought fuel cans are good, but I use MSR camp fuel bottles. I've used some thicker plastic drink bottles for glow fuel, but the caps are hit or miss, some plastics fail.
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Post  EXModelEngines Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:29 am

@ffkiwi wrote:'booster' is a bit of a crossover from fullsize practice-but it refers to 'cetane booster'.....which is a meaningless concept for our model engine fuels-in reality it is an ignition smoother-which acts to promote smoother ignition and combustion and reduce detonation.   In NO WAY can it be considered a 'power booster' in any way akin to nitromethane in glow engines.   As has been covered in some posts above-it it only used in small proportions-generally in the range of 1.5-2.5%...and this is very much a situation of 'more is not better...'

For any particular engine-and a particular fuel-there is an ideal % of additive-which is generally somewhere around the 2% mark fortunately-and most decent fuels are formulated to contain about this amount. The type of additive varies over the years-amyl nitrATE was the traditional additive of choice, amyl nitrITE was used when amyl nitrate was unavailable (and required more to be used for the same effect), isopropyl nitrate was popular in the UK in more recent times 80s and 90s,  and these days people generally use the US sourced 'DII' 'diesel ignition improver' [which is at least an accurate description of what it does!] in one or other of its commercial forms-which these days is 2EHN-that is 2-ethyl hexyl nitrate.

In practice ANY organic simple straight or branched chain hydrocarbon nitrate seems to work-or at least anything in the range C-3 (IPN) up to C-8 (2EHN)....outside of that range they're either too volatile-or too viscous to be much use in the fuel blend. The traditional amyl nitrate is of course a C-5 chain...so bang in the middle of the usable range.

the truly anal....such as team race fliers-will formulate their fuels to cope with the weather conditions on the day-and will frequently adjust the booster /DIII levels by as little as +/- 0.05% to get the optimum-as too much nitrate for the engine results in overheating and other handling deterioration.

The EFFECT of 'booster'/'ignition improver' is two fold: to damp out the misfire that often occurs at higher revs (>10,000rpm) and it also reduces the compression setting required for smooth running slightly-so stressing the engine less-with beneficial effects on long term wear.  there is a minor downside-because you are dealing with combusting trace amounts of an organic nitrate-the residues are  slightly acidic in nature-so will if left in an engine for a long time without flushing-contribute to corrosion....but this should not be considered any worse than what nitromethane combustion residues can do in a glow engine-especially a 4-stroke....

Why is DII the additive of choice....?   Probably for no other reason than it is produced in quantity-for full size diesel use-by the railway tanker car....whereas the other candidates such as IPN or amyl nitrate are a) harder to find, or b) expensive or c) restricted availability either for medical reasons or illicit usage...

Can I take off my organic chemist's hat now?

Thanks a lot for the more detailed explanation on the booster and its impact in the fuel!
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Post  EXModelEngines Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:36 am

To answer a few of the other questions:

1. As other have said, ABC is an aluminum piston with a brass cylinder that is chromed.

2. The Davis formula consists of the main components of Ether, Kerosene, Oil (Castor), and Booster. His ABC fuel was lighter on the oil but still castor. You can add about 3 1/2 ounces or 5 1/2 ounces of castor to a quart of his ABC blend to bring it up to a 20% or 24% oil content respectively but this does have some effect on the other components as well. Personally, I feel the 20% oil content is just fine for 1/2As especially since you are running all castor.
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