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Post  mitchg95 on Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:26 pm

what should my little brother use for fuel in his norvel .061, also what should we set the nv at for starting
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Post  Surfer_kris on Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:50 pm

20-25% all castor oil
10-20% nitro
Needle around 2.5 turns to start with. Use a heat gun to heat up the cylinder if it is a new engine.
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Post  John Goddard on Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:44 am

Nice Mota Mitch is it a mig or the AME?

Smile
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Post  mitchg95 on Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:36 am

i don't have it on me right now, but i think its an ame,
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Post  nitroairplane on Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:40 am

In short same as cox engine!
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Post  Cribbs74 on Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:41 am

mitchg95 wrote:i don't have it on me right now, but i think its an ame,

Mitch,

Head on over to the Norvel website. Good info on fuels,running etc.
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Post  mitchg95 on Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:42 am

sweet, it seems to be brand new to me, it kinda binds at tdc though, i have taken the engine completely apart and rebuilt it, it still binds
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Post  mitchg95 on Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:42 am

cribbs74 wrote:
mitchg95 wrote:i don't have it on me right now, but i think its an ame,

Mitch,

Head on over to the Norvel website. Good info on fuels,running etc.

ok i will
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Post  nitroairplane on Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:45 am

mitchg95 wrote:sweet, it seems to be brand new to me, it kinda binds at tdc though, i have taken the engine completely apart and rebuilt it, it still binds

A new Norvel SHOULD bind at tdc that is why Kris said use a heat gun.
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Post  mitchg95 on Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:46 am

ok, my brother was worried because it was binding, its also the rc version not the cl version
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Post  PV Pilot on Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:21 am

Just picked up a older AME .061 RC off the Bay yesterday, press-in/glue-in carb, looks like a Nelson/Galbreth head, short main needle, the big port version I believe. Going to get the carb out of there as I clean and then do a 2.5 MM tapped buttonhead setup.

Once I do a strip and clean, going to fuel it with Sig Champ 25/20. A rich setting at first, then a little more excitement.

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Post  mitchg95 on Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:23 am

nice dude, good luck
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Post  andrew on Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:54 pm

There is an extensive NORVEL FAQ in the 1/2 forum on RCU that should prove quite useful if you've never run one of these engines before.

These engines need to come up to operating temperature quickly and stay there. Due to the AAO construction, unless run at full temperature, you'll get increased wear at the top end. The use of a heat gun expands the cylinder enough to relieve the top-end pinch, which lets the engine start more easily and be run up quickly into a 2 cycle. If you don't, the friction makes for hard starting and you can wear away the tight piston/cylinder fit.
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Post  mitchg95 on Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:41 pm

andrew wrote:There is an extensive NORVEL FAQ in the 1/2 forum on RCU that should prove quite useful if you've never run one of these engines before.

These engines need to come up to operating temperature quickly and stay there. Due to the AAO construction, unless run at full temperature, you'll get increased wear at the top end. The use of a heat gun expands the cylinder enough to relieve the top-end pinch, which lets the engine start more easily and be run up quickly into a 2 cycle. If you don't, the friction makes for hard starting and you can wear away the tight piston/cylinder fit.

ya we deffinetly do not want to wreck a new engine
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Post  RknRusty on Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:33 pm

andrew wrote:...The use of a heat gun expands the cylinder enough to relieve the top-end pinch, which lets the engine start more easily and be run up quickly into a 2 cycle. If you don't, the friction makes for hard starting and you can wear away the tight piston/cylinder fit.
I've seen this mentioned before. How is it not a 2 cycle before it heats up, or any other time? Do you have to take a heat gun when you go out to fly? Or is that only when running in a new engine?

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Post  andrew on Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:37 pm

RknRusty wrote:
I've seen this mentioned before. How is it not a 2 cycle before it heats up, or any other time? Do you have to take a heat gun when you go out to fly? Or is that only when running in a new engine?

Rusty --
I wasn't clear --- during breakin, the engines need to come up to running temperature quickly enough to relieve the pinch, rather than running cool and wearing in. This flies in the face of conventional wisdom to run engines sloppy wet and cool. You can still run them rich, but in a 2 cycle. Some of the engines that shipped were so tight that they would lock up if turned over slowly. I have some .15's that squeaked at the top -- much like the very high end pylon engines. The really tight engines need to be heated to help starting when breaking in.

After SIG took over the distributorship, they shipped instructions to flip the engines, with oil, several hundred times to ease the tightness. I think this was for folks who had a hard time getting the NORVELs to start the first few times. It takes some running time for a NORVEL to completely breakin --- during this time, I've leaned the needle as much as a full turn and the RPM will continue to come up, even after a quart or so of fuel. When fully broken in, I can get one or two flip starts.

At the risk of being tarred and feathered here, I've flown NORVELs almost exclusively on small planes for the past several years.

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Post  RknRusty on Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:27 pm

Interesting. I've looked over the engines at nvengines.com. Bare has been poking me to get a Norvel ever since I joined RCG and talked about Cox too much for his taste. From what he says, they run like super-engines compared to Cox. So I wondered if a Norvel .049 would be more engine than I could handle on my cramped C/L field. I could go somewhere else instead of walking across the street to my 35' line field, but I blew it off after I was given a Tee Dee .049 and a Medallion .049. (given to me by one of our own generous members here at CEF). It did the job of getting my overweight Stuntman back in the air, problem solved, and I haven't felt the need since then. Still, the prices are right at NVE, and if they are such works of art, I'd like to try one sometime. I've heard arguments over which types are best and worst, and best and something about revlite...
Anyway, this was the one I thought about getting. I didn't ask Bare for his approval though.fuel for norvel .061 Rolleyes

http://www.nvengines.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=6&category_id=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=65

It looks like it gets better fuel mileage than a TD at 240 grams/hour. I don't know how many grams 1cc of glow fuel weighs, but still it's similar to a Black Widow. I'll generously give the BW 2:00 on 8cc with a 6x3 prop as was tested on the .049 Aero. It also runs up to 21K RPM on that 6x3 prop. I can see why that would outplay a TD. They didn't list a power output on that page.

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Post  Surfer_kris on Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:11 am

The problem is that "Bare" on RCGroups doesn't have any first hand experience with Norvel engines. He gives some ridiculous power values without ever having successfully used any Norvel engine himself.

Norvels are good engines but you have too run them in carefully. The power of a Norvel .049 is to me comparable only slightly larger than a .049 TD, while a Norvel .061 naturally has an advantage ove both .049 engines.

There is no way that a stock Norvel .049 will turn a 6x3 prop at 21000rpm, I have no idea where that value comes from.
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Post  RknRusty on Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:55 am

Surfer_kris wrote:The problem is that "Bare" on RCGroups doesn't have any first hand experience with Norvel engines. He gives some ridiculous power values without ever having successfully used any Norvel engine himself.
Haha, really! I figured with all of his vociferous Norvel endorsements, he had actually successfully used one. Just to be clear, I'm not dissin' Bare. I've had plenty of fun poking back and forth with him.

Surfer_kris wrote:Norvels are good engines but you have too run them in carefully. The power of a Norvel .049 is to me comparable only slightly larger than a .049 TD, while a Norvel .061 naturally has an advantage ove both .049 engines.

There is no way that a stock Norvel .049 will turn a 6x3 prop at 21000rpm, I have no idea where that value comes from.
Well, the NV Engines didn't say they used a 6x3 to get that. But here's a copy of their specs on that engine:
Specifications
Displacement - 0.049 cu.in. 0.79 cc
Bore - 0.40 in. 10.25 mm
Stroke - 0.38 in. 9.6 mm.
Compression ratio - 9.5 - 11
Average performance - 4,500 - 21,000 RPM
Direction of rotation - counterclockwise
Voltage - 1.2V
Fuel consumption - 8.35 oz/h 240 grams/hour
Weight - 1.37 oz. 39 grams
Recommended prop - 6x3 Tornado (black only) or APC

Maybe Bare works there. Laughing

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Post  mitchg95 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:08 am

andrew wrote:
RknRusty wrote:
I've seen this mentioned before. How is it not a 2 cycle before it heats up, or any other time? Do you have to take a heat gun when you go out to fly? Or is that only when running in a new engine?

Rusty --
I wasn't clear --- during breakin, the engines need to come up to running temperature quickly enough to relieve the pinch, rather than running cool and wearing in. This flies in the face of conventional wisdom to run engines sloppy wet and cool. You can still run them rich, but in a 2 cycle. Some of the engines that shipped were so tight that they would lock up if turned over slowly. I have some .15's that squeaked at the top -- much like the very high end pylon engines. The really tight engines need to be heated to help starting when breaking in.

After SIG took over the distributorship, they shipped instructions to flip the engines, with oil, several hundred times to ease the tightness. I think this was for folks who had a hard time getting the NORVELs to start the first few times. It takes some running time for a NORVEL to completely breakin --- during this time, I've leaned the needle as much as a full turn and the RPM will continue to come up, even after a quart or so of fuel. When fully broken in, I can get one or two flip starts.

At the risk of being tarred and feathered here, I've flown NORVELs almost exclusively on small planes for the past several years.

andrew

maybe he does
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Post  Surfer_kris on Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:05 am

The heating of the cylinder is to ease the starting of a brand new engine. It doesn't have to be very hot but it really does make a difference to the bite at TDC. A small handheld torch is fine to use at the field too. Once the engine has been run-in properly it doesn't need any preheating, but if they are flooded the oil can wash away and they can bite again.

The temperature needed to ease the pinch is not very high (just warm to the touch) and you can run the engine in a regular rich two-stroke mode without any problems. One reason for running-in an engine is also to mate the other parts, such as the crank pin to con-rod connection. Running too lean too early can cause problems there. I have had that on one engine (I think the crank pin was not smooth enough from the factory) but it will show up in the oil residue.

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Post  andrew on Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:35 am

mitchg95 wrote:
maybe he does

Доброе утро из холодной Сибири. Приедьте посещение и купите NORVEL.

Эндрю
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Post  RknRusty on Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:57 am

andrew wrote:
mitchg95 wrote:
maybe he does

Доброе утро из холодной Сибири. Приедьте посещение и купите NORVEL.

Эндрю
Nah, thanks anyway. I'll sit here by the warmth of my computer and wait for the mailman to bring mine.

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Post  andrew on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:06 am

Folks have a tendency to over-prop the NORVELs. The AME is agressively timed and has large by-pass ports for free breathing. The "kinder and gentler" Big Mig is more tame and usually recommended for people who have not had a lot of experience with smaller engines. However, both need to turn up to get into their powerband. A 6x3 is at the very top end for the NORVELs and something in the 5.75 or smaller range would probably be better; Bernie's new yellow 5x3 might be a good fit. The AME's do need smaller props to since they were designed for 1/2A combat and are really speed engines rather than sport engines..

While I do have some .049's, I've tended to stay with the .061's, simply because of the additional 25% gained in displacement.

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Post  andrew on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:09 am

RknRusty wrote:Nah, thanks anyway. I'll sit here by the warmth of my computer and wait for the mailman to bring mine.

Very Happy
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