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Post  TD ABUSER Wed Jan 04, 2023 6:04 pm

ffkiwi wrote:
ChrisM
'ffkiwi'
Thanks Chris that helps a lot.
I ran the 15 year old "Olde English Mix" through a paper 120 mesh paint strainer into a glass pickle jar and there were a few bits of rust..but overall it looked good.
No traces of water globules swimming around.
Not a whiff of ether so should I assume the ether content is close enough to zero to call it zero...?

I did order some assorted tygon tubing from chainsaw dealers...[with filters included].
[DUBRO sells just the tubing for much more.]
I purchased a "NIB" PAW .049 from a low time ebay seller.."TRTE-19" in Missouri.
He lied about the shipped date and the engine eventually arrived with NO needle valve...just the rest of the needle assembly.
He is a seller I would avoid.
So thankfully I found a couple universal NVAs in England for about $12 each [and about $24 shipping] so all is well.
My plan is to build a nice 1/2A CL Stunter for once in my life...... cheers
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Post  TD ABUSER Wed Jan 04, 2023 6:08 pm

atesus wrote:Specifically talking about JD Starter Fluid, my understanding is that once the fluid comes out of the can, the propellant (which is mostly LPG, and may be some CO2) readily evaporates and what one is left with is nearly all ether except for some small amount of lubricants. I tested my understanding by spraying the JD Starter Fluid into a container. For every 100g the JD can lost, there was ~80g of liquid in the container - which I assumed is nearly all ether. Note that JD Starting Fluid MSDS lists the ingredients by weight (see below). I'm now wondering if I got this all wrong, any feedback would be appreciated.

Aside from that, I mix only as much fuel as I'm likely to use within a week or so. Usually 100ml. I first spray the JD Starting Fluid into a graduated cylinder. I than add the castor oil, and the lamp oil, plus some DII, all by volume. I then mix it all using a glass stirring rod and transfer into a dark Boston glass bottle (with poly cone seal) where I kept the fuel for quite a few weeks without noticeable degradation. But still, I believe the JD can is an as good a container for ether as any, so I'm only motivated to take the ether out of it only when I need. That way, I usually don't need to do guesswork with my fuel's ether content.

If the ether content of an old fuel is unknown, I have a 10ml graduated cylinder into which I pour a few milliliters of the old fuel. I then wait for a few days (the warmer the better/faster). In summer in the garage, a day or two is usually sufficient. At the end of the wait, the lost amount would be the ether. Once the ether is gone, the castor oil and the kerosene/lamp oil separate. That way I can get a pretty good idea about the composition by volume of the fuel in the old container.

My DIESEL fleet and Diesel fuel blending DIY - Page 2 Clipbo10

This is GREAT NEWS...!!
All this time I guessed that the other 20% were liquid contents that we might not want.
I also like the idea of squirting  only as much ether from the can  as you think you'll need..but don't you lose some ether by doing it this way...?
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Post  atesus Wed Jan 04, 2023 7:42 pm

TD ABUSER wrote:
I also like the idea of squirting  only as much ether from the can  as you think you'll need..but don't you lose some ether by doing it this way...?

I'm not sure but I don't think so. When the fluid comes out of the can, it is quite cold. I don't think there's ether in the material which evaporates in the process. I believe as long as I can capture all of the liquid in the graduated cylinder when I spray the JD out of the can, I get all of the ether.

Similarly, running cold tap water for 20-30 seconds over the glass fuel bottle, before opening it, helps avoid ether loss. In hot weather at the field, I bring a couple Ziploc bags filled with ice cubes and keep the fuel cool that way.
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Post  TD ABUSER Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:24 pm

atesus wrote:
TD ABUSER wrote:
I also like the idea of squirting  only as much ether from the can  as you think you'll need..but don't you lose some ether by doing it this way...?

I'm not sure but I don't think so. When the fluid comes out of the can, it is quite cold. I don't think there's ether in the material which evaporates in the process. I believe as long as I can capture all of the liquid in the graduated cylinder when I spray the JD out of the can, I get all of the ether.

Similarly, running cold tap water for 20-30 seconds over the glass fuel bottle, before opening it, helps avoid ether loss. In hot weather at the field, I bring a couple Ziploc bags filled with ice cubes and keep the fuel cool that way.

Sounds Good..!
I can see using a wad of toilet paper over the glass jar as I dispense the ether to help contain some of the fog.
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Post  Oldenginerod Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:41 pm

It goes without saying, you need to be really careful to minimise the risk of ignition, so everything needs to be really cool and well ventilated.  I know many people suggest that you punch a hole in the can to dispense the ether after bleeding off the propellant, but driving a metal spike into a metal can may be risky, although I don't know what the alternative is other than spraying all the contents of the can into a large plastic bag, allowing the propellant to excape as you go.  I've never tried it, but I think I'd be doing it outside in the snow if I had that option.

Sadly, none of these options are relevant to me as I believe that JD starting fluid is not available here.  The best I've found in AUS has 50% ether, so some cleaver maths and weighing is required to work out your quantities.

Sorry, probably should have read the previous couple of posts first.  Paranoid
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Post  TD ABUSER Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:38 pm

Oldenginerod wrote:It goes without saying, you need to be really careful to minimise the risk of ignition, so everything needs to be really cool and well ventilated.  I know many people suggest that you punch a hole in the can to dispense the ether after bleeding off the propellant, but driving a metal spike into a metal can may be risky, although I don't know what the alternative is other than spraying all the contents of the can into a large plastic bag, allowing the propellant to excape as you go.  I've never tried it, but I think I'd be doing it outside in the snow if I had that option.

Sadly, none of these options are relevant to me as I believe that JD starting fluid is not available here.  The best I've found in AUS has 50% ether, so some cleaver maths and weighing is required to work out your quantities.

Sorry, probably should have read the previous couple of posts first.  Paranoid

Good points..!
I'll do it outside with a fan sucking the fumes away..and do it with a 3M paint sprayer's mask.
The spark that might be created by puncturing the can...?
I don't know what those odds are but just spraying the contents into a jar seems very safe with ventilation.
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Post  atesus Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:57 pm

Careful with the fan as it too, may cause sparks.
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Post  Oldenginerod Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:27 pm

TD ABUSER wrote:
I'll do it outside with a fan sucking the fumes away.

Blowing would be a safer option for the reasons atesus mentions.
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Post  Yabby Thu Jan 05, 2023 5:42 am

I obviously havent thought this through, as is my way, much to the regret of the engineers that have to work with me. :-) But, if you chilled the can down in the freezer before puncturing it would that maybe make it less likely to ignite? Hmmmmm. Ive got no idea really, it just seemed like a good idea at the time. Physics and thermal dynamics and fluid dynamics were not my thing. thats for sure. Lol.

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Post  TD ABUSER Thu Jan 05, 2023 8:26 am

Yabby wrote:I obviously havent thought this through, as is my way, much to the regret of the engineers that have to work with me. :-) But, if you chilled the can down in the freezer before puncturing it would that maybe make it less likely to ignite? Hmmmmm. Ive got no idea really, it just seemed like a good idea at the time. Physics and thermal dynamics and fluid dynamics were not my thing. thats for sure. Lol.

Yabby

How many times has a model diesel Enthusiast who also mixes his own fuel with canned aerocol ether.....
.....used the "ice pick method" to pour the ether from the can.....
..and then blown himself up...?

After reading this article...I know a little more about ether...but maybe I was happier about mixing my own fuel  before I read it...?
https://synapse.ucsf.edu/articles/2019/03/24/date-ucsf-history-ether-causes-explosion

If you read far enough down into the article it seems that the ether did not "auto detonate" but some open cans were exposed to the high temperature of a leaky steam vent.
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Post  cstatman Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:46 pm

i know nothing.   ABSOLUTELY NOTHING -- at all -  about this

other than it is amazing to watch Ates fire up his diesels

AND!  what I have learned from Curious George about Ether and Flying
(which is the entire reason for my comment)

My DIESEL fleet and Diesel fuel blending DIY - Page 2 George10
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Post  TD ABUSER Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:09 pm

cstatman wrote:i know nothing.   ABSOLUTELY NOTHING -- at all -  about this

other than it is amazing to watch Ates fire up his diesels

AND!  what I have learned from Curious George about Ether and Flying
(which is the entire reason for my comment)

My DIESEL fleet and Diesel fuel blending DIY - Page 2 George10

That cartoon would serve as a good warning to the SMART KIDS but it might entice the FUTURE DARWIN AWARD WINNERS to claim their trophies at an early age...?
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Post  Yabby Thu Jan 05, 2023 5:45 pm

Thankfully the Govt wisdom and great thinking by all of its 'Clever' people making ether really hard to get for model enthusiats using diesel has resulted in a far safer method of obtaining ether for said enthusiasts lol!

Interesting article on model plane fuels http://modelenginenews.org/faq/fuels.html and the components used in then and their associated Flash Points, Spontaneous ignition temp, and the explosive limits of many of the fuel components/additives. It even has a short piece that describes a high level approach to cooking your own Ether by heating and distilling a mix of alcohol and sulphuric Acid. What could possibly go wrong. Lol.

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Post  TD ABUSER Thu Jan 05, 2023 9:59 pm

Yabby wrote: It even has a short piece that describes a high level approach to cooking your own Ether by heating and distilling a mix of alcohol and sulphuric Acid. What could possibly go wrong. Lol.

Yabby

It really is amazing how trainloads of all this scary stuff can be made so safely and for relatively low manufacturing cost
I also saw an easy peasy recipe for DIY amyl nitrate..!
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Post  aspeed Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:46 am

I have a PAW .06 that I may try some day after I mix up some fuel. Had bad luck with a diesel in my youth so I just never bothered since. The team race guys around here seem to mix it on the day of the race/practise. I guess ether does not stay around too long. I read on other forums that they get rid of the JD propellant by spraying the can upside down to relieve the pressure, and then poking the hole in the can. Seems like the right order to do it IMHO. We have a different brand of starter fluid that I was going to try, but it seems to have more oils and stuff than the JD brand according to the MSDS.
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Post  TD ABUSER Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:25 am

aspeed wrote:I have a PAW .06 that I may try some day after I mix up some fuel.  Had bad luck with a diesel in my youth so I just never bothered since.  The team race guys around here seem to mix it on the day of the race/practise.  I guess ether does not stay around too long.  I read on other forums that they get rid of the JD propellant by spraying the can upside down to relieve the pressure, and then poking the hole in the can.  Seems like the right order to do it IMHO.  We have a different brand of starter fluid that I was going to try, but it seems to have more oils and stuff than the JD brand according to the MSDS.

I am going to use a PAW .049 to base my own "1/2A Stunt Design Challenge".
The object is to design the most user friendly 1/2A plane to do all the stunts with.
After reading about the rolled / molded balsa planes [awesome looking planes] that a Balsa Beaver Club member designed..

I want to give that method a try too [and get away from building solid sheet planes].

If the PAW .06 is the same size as the .049 then maybe I'll look for one of those too.
I can also see the possibility of using these engines for Slow RC Combat.
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Post  ffkiwi Fri Jan 06, 2023 12:00 pm

You can rest assured that the PAW 06 has the same physical dimensions as the 049....likewise the 80 and 100....there will be minor differences in weight between the two sizes-and of course there are subvariants-so beware 'apples and oranges' comparisons...but comparing a std 049 and a standard 06 they are very close in weight, and have the same mounting footprint. Depending on the age, they might have coloured heads and spinners-a nice mauve for the 049 and green for the 06. PAW subsequently dropped this anodising as a cost saving measure. Mine are all coloured, but I imagine they will now designate the 049 and 06 by stamping the size in the backplate recess...this is what they did with the earlier PAW 80 and 100 models (as well as the larger 15 and 19 models and the 29/35 models.

The 049 and 06 models are based on the smaller PAW 55 (.03 cu ins) layout-using a single rear ballrace and a screw in cylinder and screw on fins....whereas the earlier 80 and 100 models had drop in cylinders and 3 screw holding the cylinder fins on-and came in plain bearing, single ball bearing and twin BB models-though AFAIK the twin BB were only available as special order and not a regular production line item.

ChrisM
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Post  aspeed Fri Jan 06, 2023 2:14 pm

Just a wealth of information here.  My PAW has 100 stamped inside the backplate and the three screws holding the cylinder.  I am guessing it is an .06 because someone told me that, and 80 is likely for .8cc and 100 is 1cc or .06.  There is very little end play in the crank, so I guess there is at least 1 BB.  I know that Balsa Beavers club was pushing a coroplast ManWin plane for a while.  Did not see a rolled balsa one yet.  I used to fly Goodyear, mouse race and speed at that club sometimes. Keith is a good flyer.  I have been eyeing a big sheet of 1/2" pink styrofoam to use on a combat plane.  F2D or maybe 1/2A.  The RC club has the Stryker combat with that foam and it is very durable. They are leckies but the guys have lots of fun.  I got one to try but it looks like maybe in the spring.
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Post  rsv1cox Fri Jan 06, 2023 3:10 pm

TD ABUSER wrote:
cstatman wrote:i know nothing.   ABSOLUTELY NOTHING -- at all -  about this

other than it is amazing to watch Ates fire up his diesels

AND!  what I have learned from Curious George about Ether and Flying
(which is the entire reason for my comment)

My DIESEL fleet and Diesel fuel blending DIY - Page 2 George10

That cartoon would serve as a good warning to the SMART KIDS but it might entice the FUTURE DARWIN AWARD WINNERS to claim their trophies at an early age...?

That cartoon would serve as a good warning to the SMART KIDS but it might entice the FUTURE DARWIN AWARD WINNERS to claim their trophies at an early age...?

My very first model engine was a diesel bought through an ad in Mechanics Illustrated back in the 1940's. I read the instructions including how to mix the fuel. My Mother bought some ether at the local drug store and I did the mixing. I don't remember even getting dizzy, but remembering something that happened some 75 years ago is a little risky. I never did get it to run. Maybe the druggest sold Mom something else recognizing the risk and Mom went along. Maybe a reason why it didn't run.

Enjoying this thread!
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Post  ffkiwi Fri Jan 06, 2023 3:24 pm

aspeed wrote:Just a wealth of information here.  My PAW has 100 stamped inside the backplate and the three screws holding the cylinder.  I am guessing it is an .06 because someone told me that, and 80 is likely for .8cc and 100 is 1cc or .06.  There is very little end play in the crank, so I guess there is at least 1 BB.   I know that Balsa Beavers club was pushing a coroplast ManWin plane for a while.  Did not see a rolled balsa one yet.  I used to fly Goodyear, mouse race and speed at that club sometimes. Keith is a good flyer.  I have been eyeing a big sheet of 1/2" pink styrofoam to use on a combat plane.  F2D or maybe 1/2A.  The RC club has the Stryker combat with that foam and it is very durable. They are leckies but the guys have lots of fun.  I got one to try but it looks like maybe in the spring.

There is nothing wrong with the PAW 80s or 100s-they are reliable, tough, maintainable and produce reasonable power. They are a little less friendly to handle than the 049 and 06 models -but still reasonable. The evolution went roughly along these lines:

ca 1986 PAW 80 introduced (first new PAW size in about 25 years)--->bored out 1cc 100 model a year or two later-->both sizes developed into sub versions...R/C, single BR, twin BR and Mk2 models....following demise of DC Dart ca 1984/5 , and after producing batches of replacement Dart crankshafts to replace the many faulty ones in the last batch of DC Darts made, PAW then develop their own 0.55cc model as a Dart replacement...using similar construction style to the Dart-all screw together-a departure from then PAW practice. The incorporation of a single rear ballrace improved starting and handling-and allowed a significant improvement in power output over the Dart. following the very favorable market response to the PAW 55, in the mid 1990s-PAW redesigned the existing 80 and 100 models along the same lines as the 55....incorporating the single rear ballrace into the revised models...which is where we are today..

  ChrisM
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Post  HalfaDave Fri Jan 06, 2023 8:52 pm

Hi All,
I think this an incredible amount of knowledge. Thanks.
All I can add,
The rubber fueling bulbs that worked for glow fuel,
Then used for diesel, then glow fuel, the same day...
Were useless the next weekend.
Also,
Dad and I were cool running glow.
The first weekend with that E.D 1.5cc diesel,
We had to do our own laundry afterwords...
Be careful,
Take care,
Have fun,
Dave
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Post  musterpilot Fri Nov 10, 2023 12:54 am

Glad I don't have a problem getting ether
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Post  Oldenginerod Fri Nov 10, 2023 1:16 am

musterpilot wrote:Glad I don't have a problem getting ether

Tell me where!! I'm a long way away in Victoria but I can't find any over here. Queensland, yes, but can't transport it here.
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