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Post  Prowd Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:53 am

Hi all
Newbie returning to the cockpit after 40 years behind a desk! No experience with Cox engines but considering purchasing a Medallion .049 or Cox Tee Dee .09 to power either a Phantom or Phantom Mite. I understand that TD’s can be temperamental but extra power would give me more choice for future build. Am I also better to push the boat out and buy new out of box rather than used?

Any advice appreciated
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Post  davidll1984 Sun Apr 03, 2022 11:24 am

The .049 the tee dee is the easiest to obtain and maintain. And the parts easy to get plentiful And that's what I'll personally choose First if that's an option


Last edited by davidll1984 on Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post  balogh Sun Apr 03, 2022 12:54 pm

Prowd wrote:Hi all
Newbie returning to the cockpit after 40 years behind a desk! No experience with Cox engines but considering purchasing a Medallion .049 or Cox Tee Dee .09 to power either a Phantom or Phantom Mite. I understand that TD’s can be temperamental but extra power would give me more choice for future build. Am I also better to push the boat out and buy new out of box rather than used?

Any advice appreciated

I am not sure about the size difference between the Phantom and Phantom Mite, but a Medallion 049 and TeeDee09 play in very different leagues.  If you are lucky though, you can get a new 049 TeeDee for 70...80 bucks on feebay, and this is a good median between a 049 Medallion and 09 TeeDee..I mean this will power both planes, will be a brute force on the smaller, and dependable beast of burden on the larger plane.
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Post  getback Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:35 pm

Are you talking the Keil Kraft Phantoms ? https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=2806 https://outerzone.co.uk/search/results.asp?keyword=Phantom+Mite If you have not flown in a while they may bee a little strong to start off with ... But if so I think the TD .49 or .51 will get you were you want to bee . With the change of props you can get 18K to 24K RPM out of one there going to bee fast on this small of plane . Very Happy
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Post  davidll1984 Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:53 pm

I tink Wen u say I also better to push the boat out and buy new out of box rather than used?
I think it confused me I thought you wanted to build a boat To me the words mite I associate it with boats ??
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Post  Levent Suberk Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:09 pm

It will be good to buy a .09 engine for these planes:

https://www.vintagemodelcompany.com/16-kk-phantom-mite.html

https://www.vintagemodelcompany.com/20-kk-phantom.html

Read the review  in Phantom Mite page, it is underpowered with 1 cc diesel engine.

If you want to purchase used one then choose an engine in good condition. A new engine is better I think, but need the push boat out Very Happy

PS: I learn a new idiom, push the boat out. Thanks. Very Happy
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Post  Prowd Sun Apr 03, 2022 6:51 pm

Thanks Levent
Much appreciated
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Post  cstatman Sun Apr 03, 2022 11:18 pm

bernie has some for sale, old stock, new in box, decent prices


TD 049 - https://coxengines.ca/oem-cox-boxed-engines/-29-cox-049-tee-dee-engine-cox-box-.html

i'd give a look at his other offerings, and bookmark his page, thats where ya can get lots of stuff:
https://coxengines.ca/oem-cox-boxed-engines/


Also Matt at EX Engines, has a refurb TD 09 - and is a supplier also ...
- http://www.exmodelengines.com/product.php?productid=18021&cat=280&page=1



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Post  Prowd Mon Apr 04, 2022 9:25 am

Thanks for the links
I have already purchased items from Cox Engines. Great service so will keep an eye open for TD engine
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Post  Oldenginerod Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:20 am

The KK Phantom was pretty much built around the use of a 1.5cc (.09) diesel so the Cox .09 may be a little overkill for what appears to be a fairly slick airframe. It looks like the Phantom Mite has been designed around a .75cc-1cc diesel, so an .049 Medallion may be a good choice, although with only a 16" wing span, it'll certainly perform. The Phantoms were only really designed for the roundy roundy of team racing and were not stunters. Small wing areas mean they need to keep moving fairly briskly or they'll drop like a rock.
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Post  Prowd Mon Apr 04, 2022 8:09 pm

I was figuring that I could use the .09 in the Phantom to reacquaint myself with build and flying then progress to stunter using the same engine. Is this practical?
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Post  GallopingGhostler Mon Apr 04, 2022 9:37 pm

As others mentioned, the Phantom with only 21" wingspan was intended to be a speedster with the then available engines, which were not even as powerful as the ones available in the 1960's. If you want a trainer, it will fly much too fast for a learner.

I saw an instance somewhere else that someone used a 1963 A.C. Gilbert .11 sideport engine with mufflers (piston skirt acts as the valve to pressurize the crankcase to move fuel through the transfer port to the top of the piston for combustion). It's power was similar to the Fox .09 Rocket sideport, early 1950's Duromatic McCoy .09, etc.

If you want to a Phantom powered by Tee Dee .09, I would consider using the 32" R/C version, which is essentially a scaled up version of the 21" one. Make wing flaps non-moveable, install a suitable bellcrank system to elevator.

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=11720

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Engine Choice 11720
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Post  Oldenginerod Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:17 am

GallopingGhostler wrote:
I saw an instance somewhere else that someone used a 1963 A.C. Gilbert .11 sideport engine with mufflers

This would be the one George.  This picture came up on the old Blackhawk Models website (now defunct) and being the owner of a number of Gilberts I thought it looked so cool.  Always hoped to get one of their kits but sadly not to be.  It will need to be scratch-built now.
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Rod.
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Post  Prowd Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:17 am

So impressed with help from everyone but still trying to figure out how to post in quotes so apologies did not replying to all comments! Nervous about building from scratch from so will probably go for Phantom Mite with Medallion .049 (after looking at YouTube link!) Blackhawk model looks impressive in silver with decals
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Post  GallopingGhostler Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:19 pm

Oldenginerod wrote:This would be the one George.  This picture came up on the old Blackhawk Models website (now defunct) and being the owner of a number of Gilberts I thought it looked so cool.

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Thanks, Rod, yes that is the one. There was another one also, but yellow in color. Both were very fine examples of craftsmanship. I see the builder used 2 right mufflers for symmetry. One of the engines I bought from Tower Hobbies in the early 2000's had the same, too.

Engine Choice Ac_gil10
My Gilbert .11 with both right mufflers

My other one has both left and right mufflers, they are angled to provide out thrust with them pointing straight back.

Oldenginerod wrote:Always hoped to get one of their kits but sadly not to be. It will need to be scratch-built now.
The good thing though, is this kit is easily scratch built.

Prowd wrote:So impressed with help from everyone but still trying to figure out how to post in quotes so apologies did not replying to all comments! Nervous about building from scratch from so will probably go for Phantom Mite with Medallion .049 (after looking at YouTube link!) Blackhawk model looks impressive in silver with decals
About 5 years ago when Ron Cribbs, a forum moderator here came here visiting, I saw Ron fly his 26" Clown with the same wing area as my 30" Sterling Ringmaster Jr. (200 sq. in.) on a hopped up Medallion .049, and its stunt capability was superb on 42' lines. (By hopped up I think he was using a Tee Dee double bypass boost ported cylinder and Tee Dee head.) The Medallion is more powerful than the Bee's if unmuffled, a decent sport engine.

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Post  Ken Cook Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:20 pm

All I know is that those cats were STINKIN!! after playing with those diesels. ACCCKKK!!!!!, I know I wouldn't let them in my car. I tell my son all the time, you can walk home, your not getting in the truck. He loves them, he's acquired quite a collection and has become quite good at using them.
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Post  Prowd Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:51 pm

Oldenginerod wrote:The Medallion is more powerful than the Bee's if unmuffled
Would Tee Dee.049 be too much of a handful in Phantom or is Medallion still most appropriate option
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Post  Ken Cook Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:49 pm

Seeing this is a full bodied plane, it increases your chances of success using a TD. It places the tank directly behind the engine which keeps the fuel line length short. It's also imperative to maintain proper height in this model which may or may not require some replumbing of the tank. The tank is very important on the reliability of using the TD. While a standard vent tank will work, a uniflow tank setup would assist the engine run considerably. The problem is that a commercially available setup is more than likely non existent. The medallion would work better in this application if your not familiar with how to accommodate the tank situation. What I've discovered is that when your using a TD, the fuel delivery can be a bit of a challenge. Bladder pressure really fixes this problem. This also requires additional parts such as a finer threaded needle valve which is becoming more difficult to source. Running bladder pressure also has it's challenges whereas the medallion seems to manage these issues easier. The medallion can also be hopped up by installing a dual bypass cylinder and a high comp glow head.
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Post  Prowd Wed Apr 06, 2022 7:57 am

Ken Cook wrote:  The medallion would work better in this application if your not familiar with how to accommodate the tank situation. What I've discovered is that when your using a TD, the fuel delivery can be a bit of a challenge. Running bladder pressure  also has it's challenges whereas the medallion seems to manage these issues easier.

Thanks Ken for pointing out the advantages and problems with the TD v Medallion. As this is my first attempt to reacquaint myself with both flying and build skills the less problems I encounter at this stage the better!
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