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For the HB .15 - something 7/8" ish?   Empty For the HB .15 - something 7/8" ish?

Post  rsv1cox Sun Apr 03, 2022 7:30 am

I can't find much on the net and I'm looking to run this thing. I'm leaning toward the Top Flight 7/4 but I'm not married to it. Brodak 5%N 29%C.

For the HB .15 - something 7/8" ish?   P1012864
For the HB .15 - something 7/8" ish?   P1012865

Not what I'm used to. Clean, great compression, Pop. Got that "good" feel.

Only one I have seen with no head fins?
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Post  Ken Cook Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:56 am

29% is too much oil and wouldn't be needed. It will run on it for a few tests. For the record, S&W makes Brodak  fuel.  5/22 50%synth/50% castor is a perfect blend but it will run on 20% oil just fine. I would venture to say the instructions if you have them suggests at least 20% all castor.  Control line and r/c are different animals. I would never consider using a 8" prop on a .15 in control line. It loads the engine too much. I always use a 7" props and smaller from a 4 pitch to a max of 6 pitch.

          When using a Master Airscrew prop, note that the hub area on the back has hollow spots and I've seen them come apart on those areas. Flex the prop firmly with both hands prior to using one. I've had them come apart and throw a blade. For instance, a Mccoy prop driver has large bump lugs on it's face, the bumps don't fully engage onto the prop driver so they get crushed in when tightened. This I feel is could've been responsible for one of the failures I have seen. The Master Airscrew prop you show there hasn't been produced for probably 20 years or more. I actually prefer those due to their wider blade area. The newer ones are terrible, they're probably 1/2 the blade area and the finish on them has a machine chatter on them continuously down the blade which transfers onto the trailing edge of the prop making them razor sharp requiring extensive sanding.
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Post  Surfer_kris Sun Apr 03, 2022 10:28 am

A 7x4 prop is a little too light load for the HB .15, try an 8x4 prop instead. Remember that these engines are old-school iron/steel technology with a baffled piston. With the 8x4 prop you should be getting close to 14000rpm, depending on the prop brand.

Full castor oil is important, and 20-25% should be enough oil. Just don't run it as lean as one would do on a modern ABC engine.
I would also recommend to use an extra head-shim if you are running with 5-10% nitro in the fuel.

Rule of thumb: "Old-school engines need the old-school fuel and and the old-school prop loads." Wink
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Post  Surfer_kris Sun Apr 03, 2022 10:30 am

Regarding head fins, they came both with and without head fins. Not sure when they changed that, but I have both versions of the .12 and .15 engines. I think that the finned heads are the earlier versions, made in the 70-ties, and sometime in the eighties they changed to the smooth ones, possibly for ease of manufacturing.

The earlier versions where also plain bearing while the later one's should have one ballbearing, if I remember correctly. This is from memory only so don't take that for granted.


Last edited by Surfer_kris on Sun Apr 03, 2022 11:01 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post  rsv1cox Sun Apr 03, 2022 10:43 am

Thanks guys.  Slightly different opinions.

I haven't opened the Brodak yet, but I do have some Traxxis 5% I think with less oil, might try that first.

A little concerned about that needle.  I will substitute with this one off my Enya .19 if it doesn't run right.  MECOA sells replacements for $14.95

For the HB .15 - something 7/8" ish?   P1012869
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Post  NEW222 Sun Apr 03, 2022 10:52 am

Definately a different one for you being that it had come all nice and clean. I wish you luck with it, not the engine, but that darn carburetor. I hear that the Perry carbs are great, but a bear to tune. I had one on an old K&B years ago that I had instantly traded off for another engine as I could just not get that carburetor to tune in. But I hear that once they are tuned and set, they will very rarely require any other tuning.
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Post  Surfer_kris Sun Apr 03, 2022 11:05 am

NEW222 wrote:But I hear that once they are tuned and set, they will very rarely require any other tuning.

Yes, the best thing is to simply leave the idle disc alone until the engine is fully run-in and runs properly. Then the disc rarely needs any adjustment. The Cox conquest is the same, once the engine is fully run-in, the idle is rock solid without any fiddling with the low-end disc.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Sun Apr 03, 2022 11:36 am

rsv1cox wrote:I can't find much on the net and I'm looking to run this thing.  I'm leaning toward the Top Flight 7/4 but I'm not married to it.  Brodak 5%N 29%C.  Not what I'm used to.  Clean, great compression, Pop.  Got that "good" feel. Only one I have seen with no head fins?

http://sceptreflight.com/Model%20Engine%20Tests/HB%2015%20RC.html

Peter Chinn wrote:[Note, please read previous paragraph on props used - GG] These figures suggest that, although the HP is intended to be a sport-type .15, it is not a low speed slogger and needs to be given its head to reach its full potential. [...]

A prop size that should be useful for most HB 15 installations is an 8x4 and we used a Cox 8x4 prop to check out and adjust the Perry Carb. The minimum idling speed obtained with this prop was 3,200 rpm and to achieve this, the idle disc was set in exactly the mid position.

Why the finless head? The Sanye AP .09 R/C is finless, yet runs fine.
For the HB .15 - something 7/8" ish?   2018-131
AP .09 R/C with Saito muffler and pipe.

Per Chinn, engine is not to be loaded up with larger props, similar to most Schneurles, but run toward its peak efficiency and bhp. (It's bhp and torque curve is different than say, Enya.) Perhaps it idled too cool with the proper prop?
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Post  rsv1cox Sun Apr 03, 2022 11:53 am

Thanks for that link Geroge, I book marked it.

Chinn ran a 8/4 for break-in and various others afterwards.

I'm not kidding about that "good" feel.  I have cranked over hundreds of engines and know the difference.  I don't think that it ever has been run beyond the factory and it shows no evidence of ever being mounted.  Big change from the type of engine that I usually buy from this vendor.  Can't say as I mind the change.  Smile

“May be damaged inside and out. May be missing, have wrong parts or home manufactured parts, all i do ” Red-Baron2
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Post  GallopingGhostler Sun Apr 03, 2022 7:37 pm

You're welcome, Bob. I thought it interesting the 1979 prop rpm numbers. I used fractions as decimals versus the article for easier reading and highlighted the bits of text I thought significant:

Peter Chinn wrote:The maker's recommendations in regard to fuel include a one percent nitromethane content for breaking in and a five percent nitromethane content thereafter. The latter corresponds with our standard R/C engine test fuel and was therefore used in all our tests. However, if the user wishes to extract a little more power from the engine, HB also approve the use of a 12 percent blend.

Prop revolutions obtained in static tests on the HB 15, running on 5 percent nitro and with the muffler added, included:

9,500 rpm on a 9x4 Zinger maple;
10,400 on an 8.5x5 Zinger maple;
11,300 on an 8.5x4 Zinger maple;
12,500 on an 8x4 Robbe glassfiber-nylon;
12,600 on a 7x5 Zinger maple;
13,400 on a 7.5x4 Zinger maple;
13,600 on a Cox glassfiber-nylon; [8x4
indicated a couple paragraphs after - GG]
13,700 on a 7x5 Freedom glassfiber epoxy;
14,300 on a 7x4 Zinger maple;
and
15,700 rpm on a 7.5x3.75 Bertels glassfiber-epoxy.

These figures suggest that, although the HB is intended to be a sport-type .15, it is not a low-speed slogger and needs to be given its head to reach its full potential. This was confirmed by the dynamometer tests which disclose an uncommonly flat torque curve, reaching a moderate peak at around 9,000 rpm but then falling off only very slightly over the next 5,000 rpm. When the figures were plotted it was found that the peak of the power curve, even with muffler installed, was realized at approximately 16,300 rpm, where a figure of just over 0.25 bhp was indicated.

I guess in essence you'd prop it like you would if it were a Tee Dee. The Zingers tended to drop the rpms down more than the other makes mentioned, which makes me wonder if the Zingers were slightly wider bladed. I kind of read it as to use 7x5 to 8x4 overall. Anyway, a good tachometer would be useful in determining props to use. Once these are unloaded in the air should put the HB .15 nearer its peak hp revealed at 16,300 rpm. The Bertels 7.5x3.75 was definitely out as it was already near peak; unloaded in the air, would exceed maximum hp rpm.

Although Chinn states 12% nitro approved, I would feel comfortable with 15%.

YMMV (your mileage may vary). lol!

rsv1cox wrote:I'm not kidding about that "good" feel.  I have cranked over hundreds of engines and know the difference.  I don't think that it ever has been run beyond the factory and it shows no evidence of ever being mounted.  Big change from the type of engine that I usually buy from this vendor.  Can't say as I mind the change.  Smile

You and I have similar interests. We enjoy taking the unloved, cleaning it up and putting it to good use. Hand Shake Beer Cheers
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Post  Surfer_kris Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:14 am

GallopingGhostler wrote:The Zingers tended to drop the rpms down more than the other makes mentioned, which makes me wonder if the Zingers were slightly wider bladed.

Although Chinn states 12% nitro approved, I would feel comfortable with 15%.

The Zinger props have very thick blades which increases the load, without increasing the prop thrust. For wooden props the Rev-up are much better, they used to be readily available from Brodak. APC props work fine and they offer plenty of options too. Cox 8x4 has been working very well on the Cox conquest for me, but I haven't tried it on the HB.

The manual says very little regarding the fuel, only states 20% oil and 0-5% nitro, as far as I remember. From my own experience with the .12 and .15 engines I would recommend to add one head-shim for 10% nitro. I have not tried with any more nitro than that.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:33 am

Thanks, Kris. When I pull mine apart, I'll see how many head shims mine contains. With parts scarce, what shims do you use? Or, are you manufacturing your own?

Bob, seems that the non-finned HB .15 was commonly made, too.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?3705235-HB-15-castor-amount
For the HB .15 - something 7/8" ish?   A14032547-181-s-l1600

The box shows that HB means, Helmut Bernhardt.
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Post  Surfer_kris Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:00 am

The engines come without any gasket at all. I usually make my own from sheet brass, about 0.10-.12mm.

The "finned" head ones are an earlier version, and they came in a plain red box.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:46 pm

Thanks, Kris on your methodology and dimensions, very helpful and useful. Thumbs Up

In R/C Universe, I found an interesting discussion in the forum thread I started, Club HB Engine. Things I didn't know, looks like engineering teams of both HB and K&B (earlier Veco) shared designs and assistances among each other. I found this video:

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Post  rsv1cox Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:14 pm

Interesting George, Two names from the past Clarence Lee and Veco. Got one of those around here someplace but I have always pronounced it VEEco heavy on the E. Thanks for sharing.

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