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Post  latole Mon May 02, 2022 9:54 am

Hi,
I'm going back to the control line flight.
How would you suggest I attach the 2 cables from the handle to the bellcrank / plane ?
Make a good job not just two knots t the bellcrank.

The cables I have are very old, like the plane, should I change them or can I use them without danger of crashing?

That is the kit I have; photo

Thank you

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Post  Ken Cook Mon May 02, 2022 1:57 pm

The line clips you show are technically not to be used. Not only can they get fouled and jam, the clip portion fails and pulls out. You can tie direct to the bellcrank with a good fisherman knot such as a clinch knot or you can essentially do a 5 turn uni-knot which is what is specified to use for newer lines such as fishing lines which are braided such as Spectra Power Pro. Both knots can be learned via You Tube. Your plane isn't really designed to have clips on the bellcrank end, the lines were meant to be directly tied. Not only is it one less fail point, it really can't snag. Any type of clip is subject to getting caught. You can also use 1/64" music wire and have hard leadouts out to the wingtip which in turn you could directly put clips onto.
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Post  latole Mon May 02, 2022 2:09 pm

Thank you, You help me very much.
The line clips you see are from the previous owner.

I don't know how he use it, or is not ?
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Post  Ken Cook Mon May 02, 2022 3:55 pm

That style clip was used extensively years back. That clip is a snap swivel used for fishing to prevent a spinner from twisting up the lines. However, as I mentioned, they can fail. Now some will say that it's only a 1/2A which is true and the pull on a 1/2A isn't hardly worth mentioning. The problem is when the lines jerk if something goes slack or the plane goes up over the top and your running back. That type of shock does huge damage and it can pull those clips apart. I fly control line combat and I have had some instances where you could hardly bend large clips with pairs of pliers in your hand but a mid air impact completely straightens them.
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Post  latole Tue May 03, 2022 3:44 am

Thank you very much my friends.

I'll forget the clips and go for e uni-knot

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Post  944_Jim Tue May 03, 2022 10:39 pm

Is there any good reason for not using the Palomar knot? I think I can control end-point and line length easier with it. I just haven't practiced either knot, except when trying the Uni tonight I wound up all thumb-tied. I don't think I could tie the Uni to a specific length to save my life.
But I will keep practicing to save that black and red Radian if necessary.
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Post  latole Wed May 04, 2022 2:54 am

944_Jim wrote:Is there any good reason for not using the Palomar knot? I think I can control end-point and line length easier with it. I just haven't practiced either knot, except when trying the Uni tonight I wound up all thumb-tied. I don't think I could tie the Uni to a specific length to save my life.
But I will keep practicing to save that black and red Radian if necessary.

There must be many knot we can use. Il is only to hold a very small airplane.

Thank you all for these good informations. I learn here.

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Post  NEW222 Sat May 07, 2022 12:04 pm

944_Jim wrote:Is there any good reason for not using the Palomar knot? I think I can control end-point and line length easier with it. I just haven't practiced either knot, except when trying the Uni tonight I wound up all thumb-tied. I don't think I could tie the Uni to a specific length to save my life.
But I will keep practicing to save that black and red Radian if necessary.

I do believe the ones previously mentioned were better for knot strength on braided lines. While the Palomar does work with braid, as I do sometimes use it fishing, I just don't think many fliers that are not fishermen as well may know about it.
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Post  getback Sun May 08, 2022 6:03 am

The Palomar knot is what i went to the uni was to much a pain for me to get it right , more practice may work but why ... Now that you speak of steel lines I have never flown on them so don't know. With the strength of good fishing line now days and I don't fly competition i may not ever use steel I have heard they can bee a PIA if you don't know what your doing and that would bee me Very Happy
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Post  Ken Cook Sun May 08, 2022 7:25 am

There's nothing magical or special about using steel lines. They work better than synthetic but they're fragile. They also don't become oil soaked and provide drag that braided lines do which can't be cleaned or removed. Both types of lines have their place and should be used accordingly.   I have one friend that I ask him first if he wants to step on my lines before I unreel them in the grass. One kink of the lines and this is where they're going to break. We pit out planes in the same area for the past 20 years, one afternoon he drove his car and parked it right on top of our lines. he gets out and were all yelling and he's totally spaced out wondering what he had done.

         .008's are what is suggested but they're extremely fragile and I've had them break with Cox equipment. Years back when we were doing mouse racing, we were using .012's. I found .012's to be very suitable with no breakage and NO difference in drag using them vs the .008's. I never looked back and tossed all of my .008's as I had no need for them. You can't unreel steel lines and leave them on the ground making them susceptible to foot traffic. If you do, wrap them up and throw them out. If there's a twist in the lines and your separating them with your fingers, you can't force it as it will instantly curl the lines rendering them useless.  

         This is the benefit of braided lines, you can walk on them drag the handle out to the circle if you want as your carrying the plane. ( Kidding of course) but in reality, they can withstand that punishment. If your flying combat and get into a line tangle, throw the lines out because more than likely they're trashed. This is non existent with braided lines. There's nothing that's difficult about them. It boils down to your cleanliness and pride you take insuring they don't get kinks.
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Post  getback Sun May 08, 2022 7:42 am

Is this stuff from Sig similar to what you use , i know you said at one time you were buying large rolls of steel line ,but I wouldn't need that much for now . https://sigmfg.com/products/sig-braided-control-line?variant=52336623625
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Post  latole Sun May 08, 2022 7:47 am

getback wrote:Is this stuff from Sig similar to what you use , i know you said at one time you were buying large rolls of steel line ,but I wouldn't need that much for now .   https://sigmfg.com/products/sig-braided-control-line?variant=52336623625

IMO it might be too heavy for small 049 Cox plane.
OK for bigger airplane with OS engine

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Post  Ken Cook Sun May 08, 2022 8:10 am

It's not too heavy for Cox planes. The problem is that a Cox plane is just too heavy to begin with. A ready to fly Cox plane is more than 5 ounces overweight of a balsa model of it's equivalent size. Nonetheless, it doesn't equate to the fact that it won't work because it will and it could essentially make the model fly better. Steel lines have less drag than Dacron or braided lines therefore the model will more than likely fly faster and will offer more line tension. You also could offer the model .008's which are a bit lighter than .012's. The problem is that most ready to fly models have their lines directly tied to the bellcrank. This would require 1/64" music wire solid leadouts out to the tip of the plane so that you could use a line clip. This now makes the premade line set too long and it sould be shortened at least the length of the inboard panel. In other words to obtain the best line length, you should keep your line lengths from center of handle to center of plane. This means that any handle overhang, leadout extensions and wing panel lengths all need to be considered when making the line length.

          Eric, I've never been a fan of Sig lines. The one problem is the aluminum crimp tubes they provide. They're responsible for line breakage as the line flexes, it produces a wear point on the tube and it cuts the line. I've had it happen over a dozen times so I don't use them. I use copper or the tubes I get from my supplier. ALWAYS CHAMFER THE ENDS OF THE CRIMP TUBE PRIOR TO USING. This makes the Sig aluminum tubes even weaker and sharper which is why I don't use them. If you do use them, one thing that prevents some of this is to use the proper heat shrink tube over the crimp and at least 3/4" back onto the wire. This stops the flexing at the crimp tube. The only problem with using heat shrink tube is that you now can't see if the tube is cutting into the line. This isn't going to happen in one or two flights but I've had it happen in less than one season of flying.

      I also find that cost to be ridiculous considering I purchase 1000' of line for only $10 more. Another thing about Sig is the reels they offer. In that picture you can see the slot for lines to hook to. This is the T shaped slot in the reel to the right of the reel clip. Sig offers two styles, the T shaped slot and the straight I shaped slot. This is extremely important, if the reel you use doesn't offer the T and it's just a straight slot, you need to cut the T into it. Using the reel with a straight slot will injure the line right at the end by either placing a kink in it or causing a stress fracture at the crimp tube. So if you don't take this advice, your just asking for the line to break.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Sun May 08, 2022 8:33 am

Problem seems to be use of any clips including the swivel assembly onto the bellcrank might snag on the plastic edges of the fuselage, interfering with control. I suppose one could use heavier Dynema as a lead out as a short section of lead-out, tie off the ends onto the bellcrank. Then run a short section, or even take it to the wingtip guide.

There's no rocket science in this. Regarding use fishing clips versus modeling ones for CL, as long as it meets the pull test without deformation and is within the manufacturer's limits. If it is rated to handle fish pull up to a certain weight, it should handle a CL aircraft also, just saying. The tug of a half A aircraft is much less than that of a 55" wingspan aircraft with a .46 engine. Shoot, we flew these things on Dacron lines from a short spool similar to a sewing machine bobbin.

There are no ideal solutions, only workable ones, and we aren't talking about a competition aircraft where every step to the ultimate is taken to prevent loss of a competitive edge.

The joy of flying a historic ready made aircraft is not that flies better. Balsa always wins hands down as it is lighter. I learned that early on. Plus, balsa aircraft, especially the profiles with solid sheet wings are nearly indestructible when flown over grass.

The joy of an RTF aircraft is that it can be done.
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Post  getback Sun May 08, 2022 9:04 am

Thanks for the input Ken with you doing way more flying than most people on here are, it is Important info ,, This is what i wanted to know though ( Is this stuff from Sig similar to what you use)
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Post  latole Sun May 08, 2022 9:47 am

getback wrote:Thanks for the input Ken with you doing way more flying than most people on here are, it is Important info ,, This is what i wanted to know though ( Is this stuff from Sig similar to what you use)


I agree !
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Post  Ken Cook Sun May 08, 2022 9:56 am

As I mentioned in the post above, the clips that were shown are no longer AMA approved. This doesn't mean that you can't use them or one's neglect to follow rules, it means that they have found them to fail because of what I said. It's not the pull generated by one that does a pull test or by the plane itself, it's what happens if things go awry. This can happen from many factors, A inexperienced pilot, a bad launch, a weed snag on the ground, flying in too windy conditions, etc. If the plane flies across the circle and pilot has a firm grip, and the plane jerks, something is going to bend or break. The bellcrank of the old plastic models are 30+ years old now and are brittle. So you take your chances and roll the dice.

I fly in areas where the public can enter. So therefore not only are people subject to getting hit, so are vehicles. I'm going to do everything in my power to avoid stupid s*&^. This means that I'm going to go above and beyond what's needed to avoid litigation in any way. This is why I suggest what I suggest. Somehow these issues get twisted and contorted to always assuming a competitive level. While I have flown in competition, I've spent very little in doing so. I'm a sport flyer and I've certainly been around the block enough to know what can and what will happen. I've also witnessed more accidents than I care to.

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Post  getback Sun May 08, 2022 11:37 am

I get that completely Ken . Safety is first regardless of size engine/plane . And I would (myself) show on CEF what it was i am thinking of doing because of my lack of knowledge with steel lines....... Are your lines many strands as in 5,7,12 ect. I know there are solid lines out there . Thanks for your time .
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Post  944_Jim Sun May 08, 2022 2:02 pm

I really like .008 7-strand for 1/2A. But I do get that they are particularly sensitive to popping loads. The ones I used on the Scientific P-40 were in service for not-quite two summers. Then the loops at each end began dropping a strand. Yes, loops...not eyelets. I figured I would shorten or discard them as the loops started breaking down. And I have.

Since the start of the flying season began in my home field last week, I enjoyed using synthetic braid...the 10 lb stuff. The knot was holding me back when I flew last a few years back. The lines I prepped last week were tied using the Palomar knot since it can be repetitively tied at given line lengths. I plan on practicing the Uni, but for now the Palomar has me sold. This is why I asked "why not Palomar" above. I keep checking the ink mark on my line to see if the knot is sliding, but so far, so good.

This morning was 60 degrees and ONE MPH wind...I went, I fueled, I spun 180 degree tracks twice. I don't know what isn't working, but I enjoyed trying!

I do plan on making up more steel lines (wrapped and epoxied) as I make more spools, but synthetic sure is remarkable in ease of preparation. My last line spool was made from 3 layers of corrugated cardboard and gel CA. This is super light, and simple to make. I doubt the reel will hold up over a whole summer, but it is good enough for quick set-up/tear down.
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Last edited by 944_Jim on Sun May 08, 2022 5:28 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : spelling and clarification/syntax)
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Post  Ken Cook Sun May 08, 2022 4:08 pm

Jim, I can answer your knot question. I personally know the individuals responsible for getting the AMA to allow braided lines for our use. Phil Cartier is a combat flyer from Hershey, PA. Phil's testing and documentation and about 4 others on the east coast were compared and sent all their testing to the AMA for observation. All of the combat contests we held had at least one or more users of the braided lines. Anytime a break occurred or a failure, it was noted and documented. Knots of all types were used in competition and pull tested to failure on the ground. So the reason to answer your question why the Palomar knot is not being used is due to the fact that while similar to the 5 turn uni, it failed more than the uni. This could be due to the cinching factor when pulled up tight without lubrication.

  Phil recently suffered a stroke but he's actually up and about. He's having a contest this month. If you want to learn more about his findings and documentation, you could contact him through Stunthangar.  There's not too many people on this planet who's as nice as this man and he's most helpful.        

          Earlier this year, Bob  posted about gluing the knot, this was the largest failure factor. Split rings were also used at the terminations and this also was discovered to be a problem as the failures were breaking at the ring. When all of the factors that were tested to satisfaction over and over and all parties agreed upon what works, this is what was submitted. The AMA agreed upon it and braided lines were implemented for use in combat ONLY. The knot is what everyone had their eyes on and this is what was most problematic.

     When submitted for stunt, it was not properly worded initially and this took nearly a decade to get the text in proper form to allow it's use in competition. Braided lines were ALWAYS accepted for sport use by the AMA. If someone wanted to use them for competition in stunt, the contest director would then either allow or disallow them for use. I believe it was Brett Buck who was a major player in seeing this through over the last 3 years.

             So as George stated above :  As long as your equipment, handle to airplane passes a pull test, your good to go.
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Post  944_Jim Sun May 08, 2022 5:26 pm

Ken,

I appreciate your input, and that of those on SH (my favorite two websites), and everybody else here.

However, I have not gotten a good answer on how to make the line to a given length, over and over again. Putting the Uni on the first end isn't quite impossible (I've been practicing). It is the other end I can't make land on a given marker. I'm between one and three inches (both long and short) from my mark! Grrrr!

Is it just practice, like a neck-tie? I have a few neck-ties...two I can just about tie blind-folded and still land the ends where I want them (my most commonly worn ones). The other four require a couple or three times to land right. I really would prefer to use a knot that is known good, and acceptable to the majority. I'm not afraid of a law suit, since I fly alone. I just want the most respected knot on my planes.

Any help, or links to YouTube videos would help. In fact, I saw one of the SH guys videos. That's where I learned there is a difference between Uni and Palomar. I can't seem to remember if he covered the other end very well.

I need to go search more...thanks for bearing with me.
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Post  Ken Cook Sun May 08, 2022 6:09 pm

You cut the line length to the approximate length desired and prepare the knots on two of the ends. Place a screwdriver through the loops and anchor to the ground so that you can stretch them out. You place a Sharpie dot directly on both lines at the desired length. You insure that the dot stays within the loop. I have a board with two 1/4" dowels that I wrap the line around and I insure the dot stays on the dowel when finishing the remainder of the knot. The knot doesn't need to cinch up tight to the dowel as it won't slip. I use button bellcranks . My lines slip on and off the buttons with no mechanical means fastening them to the bellcrankother than friction. On my 1/2A's, I just make a razor cut into the bellcrank and the line slips directly onto it.

To deal with lines that are close but unequal length, I have a clip bender and I can make line clips which can be made in seconds with 1/16" differences.
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Post  944_Jim Sun May 08, 2022 8:53 pm

Ken Cook wrote:                    You cut the line length to the approximate length desired and prepare the knots on two of the ends. Place a screwdriver through the loops and anchor to the ground so that you can stretch them out. You place a Sharpie dot directly on both lines at the desired length. You insure that the dot stays within the loop...
and I can make line clips which can be made in seconds with 1/16" differences.

No need to go from step 3 to step 4 above? I really need to practice this knot, Ken. Thanks for expressing that last part. I kept riding the knot down before really cinching up.

Man, sometimes I just make it hard on myself (face-palm)!
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Post  GallopingGhostler Sun May 08, 2022 9:42 pm

An interesting discussion, and yes, Ken, you hit the nail on the head - LITIGATION. Doh!

I still remember the big flap that AMA had with Spectra / Dynema. Took modelers showing the practical aspects to cause the rule committee to finally turn things around.

And, I am not against safe flying and practices thereof.

But, I live dangerously with gliders that don't have a sponge rubber nose. Glad I left the SoCal area 30 years ago. There, seems every park, nook and cranny was against model airplane flying in the school and public parks.

So, you are right, matter of perspective. And, matter of risk assessment.

That is why I like living in a rural setting, where there's less people to deal with, and if one wants to try the way we flew 40 years ago, Dacron lines and all tied to the bellcrank and the el cheapo handle that came bundled, or came with the CL balsa kit, we survived without incident.

But, litigious and all, it is where we live at.

Carry on! Tired w/ Coffee Read Old Bugger Popcorn lol!
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