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Post  Ken Cook Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:31 pm

I found this over at my dad's a few weeks back. It needed a lot of work but it has never flown. The stab was curled badly and the paint was never completed. The rudder broke off and took away some of the paint. I sanded, cleaned and repaired the model. I fixed the rudder and silkspanned the entire rudder. I'm thinking of doing this to the entire plane. I don't know what paint my dad used but it was tough to sand. I put nitrate on the model with no problems other that the areas I broke through. I believe he used some sort of red primer underneath and the nitrate was reacting slightly with it. I will sand those areas lightly and silkspan over everything and then give it a few more coats. This isn't a hollow log design but it appears to be a much lighter version, aside from the narrow wingspan, this should do ok. OK .049B to be used or my reed valve .OK .059. I think either or should make this a winner.

 Scientifc Stunt Trainer Dscn3062
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Post  GallopingGhostler Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:39 pm

That plane your father built and you are restoring is really nice, Ken. Hard to sand, would it have been possible that your father used automotive paint instead of dope? It should be a really sweet flyer with the engines you mention. I happened to note that your dad angled the whole rudder for offset versus the plan, which had the rudder back offset, I guess for more effective line tension without drag.

Found the Musciano Scientific plan sheet is available on Outerzone, just downloaded it. The model is simple enough, one could upscale the 1/4 scale plan view 4x for fuselage width for formers, wing and stabilizer.

Outerzone: oz4051 18in Scientific Stunt Trainer by Walt Musciano

 Scientifc Stunt Trainer 405110

Just a side note, author Andy Kuntz upscaled it slightly to 21 inch (533 mm) wingspan for small electric R/C, then again to 50 inch (1270 mm), calling it the Stunt Trainer 25 for electric (or .25 glow). (Found in Outerzone using search, "stunt trainer".)
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Post  Ken Cook Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:00 pm

George, that's a good eye you have there on the rudder. As for the paint, I know my dad built this probably close to 40 years ago. I think the orange paint is K&B Superpoxy. The paint is hard and it really only sands with wet 320.  I'm not certain but the nitrate had no ill impact on it. I also sanded through in spots and now I'm almost 100% certain what the red is underneath the orange, it's not primer but Nitro-Stan spot putty. You can't see the grain on this plane which is pretty darn impressive. This would explain why my dope is reacting with it because it's nitrocellulose base. I also  see I'm missing the headrest. I believe I have one of those yellow pilots that you and Bob have which may just perfect in this. I'm really up in the air as to what to do here, I have sanded and sanded and sanded this thing. I could Rustoleum the entire plane and just be done with it. I don't really care for Rustoleum but it does work. Or silkspan the entire plane which is troublesome and lengthy. The Rustoleum route is looking good. The nitrate would serve as a good base.
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Post  rsv1cox Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:28 pm

I'm familiar with most of Walt's designs but that's a new one on me.  I have the Stunt Master presently and have built many more.  The box design on the Stunt Trainer should be lighter but less durable than the hollow logs.  

Yes, good eye on that rudder/fin George, I might have missed it.  Maybe not intended in the basic design but still effective.  I remember when I first posted a picture of my Baby Ringmaster here and Ron pointed out that I placed the rudder wrong.  Embarassed

I can verify the durability of two part epoxy paint.  I used Hobby Poxy on one of my scratch builts and it's still good as new.  Scientific did supply a plastic pilot with some of their models, my Cylcone had one.  

Thanks for taking interest in that old model Ken, especially with a family connection.  I hope to see the finished product.

 Scientifc Stunt Trainer P1013506
 Scientifc Stunt Trainer P1013505
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Post  Ken Cook Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:13 pm

I'm glad this has inspiration to others because it does to me as well. I want to use a OK engine to power it. Of course there's a backstory as I always have them. This is why I enjoy this hobby, it's full of memories. I had a fellow club member named Pete. Pete was a body and fender man by trade. He actually went to school with my grandfather and I was introduced to him in the early 80's. Pete gave my son a very old first edition OK Cub .049 and told him to build a Dakota for it which we did. I had three flights on that Dakota when it went hundreds of feet high and flew away. I was really broken hearted over that because that engine was darn near brand new and worked terrifically.
              I was working at a hospital when I saw Pete being pushed down the hall in a wheelchair. My co workers thought I was nuts as I ran after the nurse asking her to stop. Sadly, Pete now 97 couldn't remember my name but when I showed him a picture on my phone of the plane, I could see it in his eyes that he knew. Pete passed away shortly after our meeting in the hall but he won't be forgotten.

          Just prior to the retirement of Charles Brebeck of OK engines, I had a lengthy conversation with him. I mentioned Pete and the engine he gave my son and what happened to the plane. Charles said that his retirement was official and that if I wanted parts, now and only now was the time to get them. He also said he could possibly replace my lost engine. He sent me a e-mail and said he put together a engine which would add another $20 to my already placed order. Weeks passed and no parts or engine. Charles also took down his website and the e-mail was terminated. I was wondering what happened then it all arrived in the mail weeks later. I just might possibly be the last person to receive a new OK .049. This is the engine I plan on using.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:51 pm

Wow, Ken, a lot of neat past time stories and the heroes you met along the way, especially Pete and Charles. They have a certain kindness and generosity in spirit that is hard to find these days.

I've met people like that. Somewhere packed away, I have a manual typed letter from the late William "Bill" Winter, in response to a gift NOS Jetex 50 in original packaging. I bought it on sale back in the 1980's from either Penn Valley Hobbies or America's Hobby Center. But, fuel pellets were unavailable. So, I sent to him as a token appreciation for his sport flyer articles. Once I find it, will post it.

Also, a kind gentleman from the northwest US, poor on names now, about 10 years ago was as far as I know, getting to where he couldn't fly. He had a Ringmaster S-1 that needed repair, wing was warped, plus finishing. He PM'd me on one of the now closed and vanished forums.

I received in the mail the Ringmaster, plans, 2 Testor's .35 Red Heads with 2 parts engines, a .020 micro Ringmaster kit (PDQ?), copy of his hand drafted custom ultra light Ringmaster S-1, and a 1930's vintage CL plan copy.

I got his info and his note stored somewhere, apologies, repaired the warp, is the one S-1 I posted photos of in various forums.

We lost a lot of history when Stuka Stunt and Brotherhood of the Ring vanished from the 'net.
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Post  rsv1cox Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:21 pm

Funny, while going though my saved scans looking for those Scientific ads above, I found emails and copies of posts by Brian (Mudhen). Per his wishes (he deleted all his posts here) I won't relate any, but pearls of wisdom melted away when he erased them.

The people we knew.

Bob
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Post  GallopingGhostler Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:00 pm

Yes, I don't know what happened there, a pity, something happened, I hope he is okay.

We also lost Yahoo Groups and Geocities blogs. Yahoo had many model airplane and model engine groups, I was enrolled in at least a dozen. I think Mark Boesen and a few others had whole compendiums there, I know Vintage R/C Society had one. Geocities discontinued their blogs a few years earlier, we lost a lot of wealth of info there also.
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Post  rsv1cox Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:40 am

I don't know how you do it George, follow all those other forums and still post here.  I can't keep up with the CEF, although it seems like patronage has dropped off here significantly.  Maybe it's just summer.

I seldom visit RC Groups anymore but I do drop in on the MTF - Model Train Forum occasionally.  

Another funny, after all my time in finding those Scientific scans they were too large a file to post here.  I had to take photos of the real thing and post.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:12 pm

Bob, when I was younger, keeping up in the forums was easy. Nowadays, the only forums I participate in is mostly CEF and RC Universe, although I occasionally tread into Stunt Hangar, Hip Pocket Aeronautics, and RC Groups. I type about 100 words per minute, so replying is not hard at all. And, within the ones I participate in, I only pay attention to a small subsection, basically special topics areas, not the whole enchilada. Arrow

If I were a two finger typist (like texting on a cellphone), Computer Issues I'd probably not do as much forum participation.
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Post  cstatman Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:47 pm

im glad both of ya'll and all the others are here. .

there's a few fellers who seem to have dissipated - i hope its just a summer break.
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Post  andrew Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:55 pm

rsv1cox wrote:.................I can't keep up with the CEF, although it seems like patronage has dropped off here significantly.  Maybe it's just summer...........


Yes, so it seems.
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Post  rsv1cox Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:21 pm

When we lost Rusty, we lost the heart of this forum, others too.  

I check the Member list almost everyday, I see a lot of attendance but few posters although there are new people that are taking up the slack.  I try to contribute something at least once every week, nonsense mostly but maybe some will read it and get a kick out of it.  Others I probably bore to tears.  

I just finished watching a rerun of "The Green Mile."  Marvelous movie well acted.  The bird feeder attracts.  At a crucial moment in the Green Mile I heard a thud, startled me! Then I realized that a bird had hit the bay window.  I went out to check and a Red Cardinal was clutching the window frame, saw me and flew off.  

Watched fireflys glow for awhile and came in.

Shine little glow-worm, glimmer, glimmer. Lead us lest too far we wander. Love's sweet voice is callin' yonder. Shine little glow-worm, glimmer, glimmer. Hey, there don't get dimmer, dimmer. Light the path below, above. And lead us on to love.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=shile+little+glow+worm&view=detail&mid=5D9028ACBF19713F4A815D9028ACBF19713F4A81&FORM=VIRE0&ru=%2fsearch%3fq%3dshile%2blittle%2bglow%2bworm%26form%3dWNSGPH%26qs%3dSW%26cvid%3da614f77231d64199bc213ea098d102e7%26pq%3dshile%2blittle%2bglow%2bworm%26cc%3dUS%26setlang%3den-US%26PC%3dHCTS%26nclid%3d6CAAA2592EDB5704FC69549C5FB38AB0%26ts%3d1656292915190%26nclidts%3d1656292915%26tsms%3d190%26wsso%3dModerate

Life goes on.

Apologies for the hack Ken.
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Post  rdw777 Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:27 am

Love those old plane restore’s… Especially when there is some history behind it…. One of the Cubs will be a perfect match!! I’ve got a couple of them to hopefully find their way onto something one of these days…
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Post  GallopingGhostler Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:31 am

rsv1cox wrote:When we lost Rusty, we lost the heart of this forum, others too.
Yes, Rusty was a spark of life here. Talk about humor, he had this to say 10 years ago:

CEF:  When Model Aviation Goes Too Far, Post# 37061
RknRusty on June 8, 2012 wrote:It's just a stiff tanned hide, nothing but feline leather. There's no cat still in it... just batteries.
When I die, I want y'all to tan my hide and mount that giant Babe Bee on my head. Don't forget the epoxy. Put some cameras in my hands, and maybe a beer, and fly me cross country. Just one last request. Please don't bore out my venturi.
R.I.P. Rusty! Memorial Day 4th of July Flag lol!
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Post  getback Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:34 am

The stunt trainer looks pretty nice for a older design , makes me want one . I am sure you will do a good job of fixing it up . Very Happy
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Post  Eddy Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:40 pm

Great talk on the Scientific Stunt Trainer. I'm not real sure just when this plane came out, but on the plans I have it shows a date of 3/72. If that's when the plans were printed or the kit was put into production, it was in the latter production run. There is a sister plane of the same built up body and slab wing called the Sport Racer. It appears to have a narrower wing of 18" with different tail feathers and decals, still powered with an .020 to .074. I bought my Stunt Trainer back in the 70's from a closing hobby store. On my Stunt Trainer I traced all the parts and scratch built it with a 20" wing span instead of the 17 3/4" span the kit came with. My Stunt Trainer is powered with a Cub .074 and a a 3/4 ounce tank behind the firewall running 25% castor and 25% nitro with a 6X3 wood prop on 42' lines. Because of the slab wing the stunts are as one would expect to be, large loops, good wing overs and fly inverted real good.
In 2005, we held a Musciano meet at our flying field. That year, Walt Musciano, Larry Rice of Black Hawk models and Currell Patty came. I brought several Scientific kits for Walt to sign his name on, it was really special to see Walt and to talk with him, a shame he is not with us anymore, perfect gentleman he was.
I Last spoke with Currell Patty in 2012 and had quite the conversation with him. His wife passed in 2009 and he remarried and was living on Simons Island, Ga. Currell has a wealth of information on Scientific models. He told me the story of the original Scientific "Lil Bipe" that came out around 1950 or so. It originally had a 16" wing span with a much longer fuselage, much like the adds showed it with the checkerboard wings. As the costs kept going up, the plane kept changing with smaller wing span, 11 3/4" and much shorter fuselage . I could not keep the top wing on my Lil Bipe to save my soul.
I don't have a lot of Scientific plans, maybe 35 or so now. Outer Zone has a few that one can down load. One of my favorite plans I have always wanted to build and fly is the "Piper Sea Scout" It has floats and can be flown from water, even came with the neat "OK Cub Bear" decal, the date on the Sea Scout plans is 1956. I have all three Stunt Master planes, well, I wouldn't say they are stunt masters, just neat planes to fly. Even the Baby Stunt Master with built up body and slab wings flies ok with the Cub .039, never looped it though.
Great stories on the Stunt Trainer, thanks for all the info. Eddy
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Post  GallopingGhostler Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:24 am

Speaking of Walt Musciano's Scientific Little Bipe, the earlier differing from the later, I built the later shorter wingspan one in 1968, doped it orange with blue trim and mounted a Cox .049 Babe Bee engine on the front of it. It was a simple hollow log with same fuselage as on the later Little Devil that my brother built.

He wasn't happy with it, I repaired the wing and refinished it in green and orange dope. I found details of the earlier one in 2009, saved to my hard disk, don't know where I got it:
 Scientifc Stunt Trainer 18in_l10

 Scientifc Stunt Trainer 18in_l11

 Scientifc Stunt Trainer 18in_l12

As you see, it is slightly different than the later Little Devil, although photos on the box and plan show the earlier one.
 Scientifc Stunt Trainer 18in_l14

The wings, rudder and elevator are different on both versions. This later fuselage, rudder and elevator became a common element on a number of Scientific half-A CL kits, most likely to reduce manufacturing costs.
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Post  Ken Cook Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:17 am

Walt visited our flying field some years back and I can't recall the date. I was present at the time. He was personal friends of two of our members. One of my fellow club members was making the spun aluminum cowlings for him. Walt was still making kits for the hollow log followers not by any big numbers just to keep the spirit alive. Eventually, Larry Rice began kitting the models. I've seen many of the Black Hawk kits and they varied so much from the originals that I steered clear. For the interest of the beginner, Larry's kits fulfilled that niche. For more skilled modelers, they were not worth opening the box. Larry's kits though took the aged modeler back into his childhood and that probably has more meaning over it's flight character. I also admired the fact that Larry utilized vets to assist in cutting and sanding. I fully know regardless of what he paid those fellows, they were doing it more for the love vs the money. Hats off to Larry.

I'm not suggesting Scientific kits were much better especially with wood selection. It's just that when your striving for light, the provided Louisville Slugger baseball bat wood used for the fuse was not very desired. Walt told us that many of his models were changed. He said most of his models offered larger wingspans. Space is what determined the models. Out of a 36" sheet, you now were able to have two wings vs one. Even the size of the printed plan sheet was considered to optimize the sheet used on the printer. Box sizes also dictated various parts.

I'm a bit behind on my plane. I need to just complete it.
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