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Post  fredvon4 Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:58 pm

Seems more than a few members know all about music and equipment

I am frugal and so far have spent way too much on Logitech and Klipsch 2.1 systems that don't get the job done

Currently Klipsch THX 2.1 system with small satellites and a sub...very clean BUT not LOUD enough at 45W RMS per speaker....sub has to be reduced as it over powers the smallish book shelfs

Did I say frugal?

This next few weeks (black Friday spending) The event not the discounts. I programmed $350 to find a LOT louder system

Thinking I need a stereo amp in the 100 to 150 Watt per Channel range and a set of decent book shelf speakers that can handle that power and not need a sub

Ina Gadda Da Vida at warp 12
Sounds of silence at warp 12
Rare Earth Get ready at warp 12
Led Zeppelin Kashmir at warp 12

you get the idea.....

My Shop is a converted RV roof with now 4 sides, windows, doors 15 tall x 15 wide x 42 long with spray foam insulation ...an acoustic nightmare


Some of you guys have been to good concerts...The loudest in my life was Johnny Winters playing Frankenstein at warp 18.... ears rang for 3 days despite being 75 yards back from the speaker columns

Thoughts, opinions.....my google foo sux the last 2 days

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Post  GallopingGhostler Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:38 pm

Fred, I just installed the following undercounter radio. I don't know exactly how much volume you need, but it has high quality output figuring its simple speaker system. Of course, one can use the earphone jack and port the sound to an external amplified speaker system. For me, it produces decent reasonable high fidelity for its $55.00 cost, and this is coming from a musician.

Amazon: iLive iKBC384S Undercounter FM Radio with Bluetooth and CD

Link will come up in Spanish, but you can click on the language setting in the top menu bar of Amazon and easily change it to English. This is how it looks in my kitchen, mounted under the cabinet:
Need a very loud shop stereo system fed by my PC 2022-113

It has bluetooth, so if you have bluetooth output on your PC or laptop, can reroute the sound output to it by linking with it. It also has a single CD player and line input, too. I've already tested the bluetooth with my cellphone, so it works as advertised.
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Post  Levent Suberk Tue Nov 15, 2022 9:23 pm

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Post  KariFS Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:15 am

For LOUD you'll need big speakers. Big speakers are "sensitive", i.e. lot of noise with moderate wattage. Anything from used home speakers with 10...12" woofers to some small-ish PA equipment. It is a matter of physics, to get sound you'll need to move air, and to move air you need cone area. A 12" cone has the surface area of 4 dinky 6" drivers. Often the stroke is longer also on the bigger ones = more air moved.

Another alternative would be some decent-sized active speakers (with built-in amplifiers), but they might not be the "frugal" choice. Those you can run directly from your PC.

One alternative is a purpose-built "workshop radio". I won a Milwaukee unit at a raffle a few years ago, that thing is built to be loud, sound quality is a bit so-so, not a lot of bass, and the rest is a bit distorted by the speakers located side-by side behind a metal mesh. That thing has radio, aux in with a cable, bluetooth, it's sturdy, has a handle on top, it's easy to move around in the shop, runs on (and charges when connected to mains) a Milwaukee 18V battery. It even has a built-in bottle opener Very Happy Here:

https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Power-Tools/Specialty-Tools/Radios-and-Speakers/2792-20

Not Hi-Fi as such, but plenty loud, works fine for Rock, Country, acoustic etc in a shop environment.

Have you considered headphones? A lot of guys around here use hearing protection with built-in headphone function.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:00 am

How about:
Need a very loud shop stereo system fed by my PC J4359010
Muscians Friend: Gemini ES-210MXBLU-ST Portable PA System
Cost: $379.95 with 15% off coupon = $322.96 before tax, free shipping.
They also have the same electronics without the speaker stands
https://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/gemini-es-210mxblu-portable-pa-system
Cost: $329.95 with 15% off coupon = $280.46 before tax, free shipping.

Note, those speaker cabinets have 10 inch bass speakers in them, so it should do a decent job of belting out the base without taking up too much room. Please note, of course, if you want better quality, you'll need to jump up to 12" bass speakers.

I buy regularly from them, their prices are reasonable.
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Post  Levent Suberk Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:24 am

I have that amplifier with a Sony cassette deck and Sony CD player.All are connected to PC and I also recorded old casettes as mp3 files.

Need a very loud shop stereo system fed by my PC Sony-t10

(Picture from hifidealer.net)
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Post  Levent Suberk Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:28 am

Two JBL speakers like this connected to amplifier. Not same but similar deck speakers in photo.

Need a very loud shop stereo system fed by my PC 51i6ji10

(Picture from amazon.com)
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Post  fredvon4 Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:35 am

All greaat ideas, I think something like a Sony or Onyko stereo amp and 2 high power handling book shelf speakers is best bet
Only issue is foot print

In my price range most self powered book shelf speakers are too low wattage until you get well above $499

My biggest frustration searching is usually trying to COMPARE specs.....

Some companies list total power like 100Watt into 8 ohm (really means 50 watts per out put) and some the 100W out is time 2 into 8ohm so really a 200Watt amp giving 100 watts to EACH speaker.

Way back 40 years I was in Germany and enjoyed shopping at the various "Sight n Sound" MWR locations as well as PX audio visual sections...great items and no tax

My stereo was (for the time) very state of the art and so loud I could "walk" a filled wall locker out away from the wall in my 12x16 two man room. In fact I had a Kenwood GRANITE turn table that I think weighed 19 lbs to help dampen the sonic vibration. Most of my stuff was Sansui, Dual, Marantz, Pioneer, and JBL studio monitors ganged with Sansui monster speakers with 15" woofers

Later in life I (after my stereo was stolen) bought a Rack and Bose AcusticMass 7 satellite speaker system. Ultimately in the mid 2000s I designed our home theater around a Denon AVR and custom made Fluance speaker 7.1 system that to this day does surround sound so well that a scene in a bar, we can hear the surrounding conversations well defined by location in the scene.

All that relates to great movies like Tom Cruise and Bob Duval in Days of Thunder...probably the very best surround sound movie to test your system. The is a scene when in the pits Duval is chewing out Cruise as the race is still running. You can hear the down shifts and throttle feathering into turn 4, acceleration down the straight in front of the pit row and then down shift into turn 1 feathered throttle through 1 and 2 then back straight away then again the down shift into 3 and 4 and back on the throttle...In my living room this scene places me on pit row as the race happens all around and behind me.

Bottom line of all this is: I do know how to design a sound system within every progressing components and acoustic environments.

My search for VERY loud Computer stereo systems was and still is failing only because I refuse to spend $1999....Think on that because we all do it... The system to meet my needs is $1999 so I look at the specs and agree, a kick ass system...but where can I find these specs at a much more reasonable price...

Back to lead in---- ( and this applies to a lot of products on Best Buy or Amazon , or Crutchfield) Does not seem to matter what brand, there does not seem to be any standard of commonality in Terms and Specks ....one companies 100Watt RMS is another companies 50W Rms x 2 and very few even bother to list a more important Sound Pressure Level (SPL) in Db

My current Klipsch THX 2.1 Computer system is quite loud and to my ears very distortion free........I simply want more punch to me ( not my neighbors)

Nothing bugs me more on great weather weekends when several neighbors are BBQing with stereo blasting.... 500 meters to 1000 meters away all I get is the thump, thump, thump of the bass and none of the actual music being played.....

Any way I think a deeply discounted Sony or other stereo Amp and Off brand High power handling speakers may be the way to go

I was hoping a CEFer had found a Class D amp and speaker set up ...that rivaled many of the 1960/70s stage band Very Very loud sound stage..... I am very aware that today old school tube amps are in great demand and a lot of rebuilding services to bring back their very grand sound quality.... Of course many of these focus on Patsy Cline type vocals..... some of those old school amps were so great sounding ...but I digress
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Post  crankbndr Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:44 am

I used to use Crutchfield to compare audio stuff.

https://www.crutchfield.com


Never mind, I see you know of them already.
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Post  fredvon4 Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:58 am

Amazon, Crutchfield, Best Buy, and Newegg were my go to searches because each has a left side way to drill down

unfortunately after you do:

2.1
100Watt per channel
price $100~$300

then try to compare specs from the 30 items offered you run into a wall as half are not even relating to the search specifics....very frustrating.....

I actually called Crutchfield and got Gus to help....his recommendation was 2 different discrete Stereo amps that I goggled each and found for half Critchfield's price on E-Bay


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Post  crankbndr Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:11 am

Good luck in your search. I lost my right ear hearing to shingles and left is also compromised so music is kinda dead to me.
However In A Gadda Da Vida at warp 12 still comes through. Used to bounce off the walls doing that tune! LOL
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Post  GallopingGhostler Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:05 pm

crankbndr wrote:Good luck in your search. I lost my right ear hearing to shingles and left is also compromised so music is kinda dead to me. However In A Gadda Da Vida at warp 12 still comes through. Used to bounce off the walls doing that tune! LOL

Need a very loud shop stereo system fed by my PC 2022-011
Leaves lol!

Class D set up? For the church, I donated two 12 inch Class D powered speakers, which fill a small auditorium to concert level.

Need a very loud shop stereo system fed by my PC J4638510

Need a very loud shop stereo system fed by my PC J4638511

Musicians Friend wrote:Class-D power and tight sound in a rugged enclosure.

Packing a hefty 400W of clean, articulate Class-D amplification, the V1012 active loudspeaker is designed to bring more power and exceptional sound to your next gig or rehearsal. This robust 2-way enclosure features a 12" low-frequency driver and a 1.35 in. compression driver, plus a built-in 2-channel mixer with 2-band EQ. It also offers an advanced limiter with a clip indicator to protect your system and maintain pristine sound. Thanks to its XLR balanced line level output, you can link multiple speakers together for wall-to-wall coverage — perfect for anyone who needs venue-filling power and detail. 
Features

   400 watts, Class-D amplification
   12 in. driver with 1.35 in. compression driver
   2-input mixer
   Rugged, full-grille design
   Signal Clip LED on back
   2-band EQ
   Limiter with clip indicator
   Top and side handles
   1-3/8 in. pole mount
   Ch 1 mic/line sensitivity switch with XLR and 1/4 in. jacks
   Ch 2 Line input with XLR and RCA jacks
   1/8 in. aux input for MP3 players
   XLR line level output to link speakers

Musicians Friend had a Stupid Deal of the Day for two speakers, stands and stand bag for something like $350, so I grabbed at it. Yes, it is western designed Chinese constructed, but at the cost definitely worth it. I could have tried for Peavey or Yamaha, but then would have spent easily 3 times as much. But, the Class D amplification beats the Class A or Class B amplification hand over fist for the quality of sound, reminds me of the tube amps eons ago.

Then one just needs a pre-amp, a 5 to 8 channel can be had for under $100 on sale.

Sounds like Fred, these are a bit overkill for you as I gather you are strapped for space. The answer is out there, I'm sure you'll find something that meets your requirements in due time. Very Happy
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Post  944_Jim Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:18 pm

Fred,

My oldest son bought a used high-powered amp, bookshelf speakers (heavy old Radio Shack), and a sub with built in cross overs. The sound is great at lower volumes. The speakers break up before the amp pulls enough power to affect display lighting.

In fact, when we first test-listened, the amp was hooked to small ported floor speakers (8" main, 2" tweeter/passive crossover 22Tx10Wx8D). The combination was rock solid, and ear-bleedingly loud. I'm glad my son elected to "leave the bigguns and take the littluns and sub."

I think you really need to consider larger speakers before larger watts. That gets you spending money on moving lots of air as indictated earlier. Then you can use just about anything for sound replication/output to speakers, and buy up if the current inventory of sound-makers can't meet expectations.

I want to say our current TV/Stereo amp is a new Sony with a rated 100 watts per channel ($180 from Best Buy). It is hooked to 25 year old Bose separates and sub. This is also a case where the amp is stronger than the speakers can handle. The amp resided at the In-Laws long enough to be hooked to much larger house speakers, and they could raise a deaf AND dead person from six feet under...cleanly.

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Post  getback Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:08 am

For the speakers i would contact roddie remember his company build concert speakers > may be out of price rage IDK but am sure would bee quality and may get a discount too Wink
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Post  fredvon4 Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:50 am

From e-bay for 50 bucks---new set of Rockville RockShelf 64B 400w Black 6.5" Home Theater Bookshelf Speakers/4 Ohm

From Amazon for 150 bucks ---Sony STRDH190 2-ch Home Stereo Receiver

Worst case the cheap speakers suck and then need to find another set.
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Post  roddie Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:47 pm

getback wrote:For the speakers i would contact roddie remember his company build concert speakers > may be out of price rage IDK but am sure would bee quality and may get a discount too Wink

Thanks for thinking of me Eric, but Fulcrum Acoustic cabs are strictly commercial (remembering Frank Z.) and needless to say; real expensive.

Phred... There are a myriad of variables when it comes down to configuring an audio system. Where this application is a workshop, you will inevitably be working in different areas.. which may necessitate either sitting or standing. One or the other will put you the listener; off axis with with an optimal signal processing. a boutique system is acoustically aimed at an area where the listener will be seated or stationary. Fulcrum has some real informative vids on this subject.. as well as system-design.

You can however build a system on phrugality.. Phred..  Laughing if you source some of the system components 2nd hand or at close-out pricing. It's still going to cost you some dough. I would personally source a quality powered subwoofer and place it anywhere in your shop; being that bass frequencies are non-directional. Keep in mind though; that sub-frequency (bass) sound waves travel approx. 26 feet before maturity. You may want to orient the sub closer to one end of the shop or the other. Don't rely on your wall mount drivers to handle the bass. I would recommend sourcing some small mid-range cabs.. and wall-mounts for them that swivel. If you want full-shop coverage.. you may need as many as eight of them. High-frequencies would require separate components as well.. (ie: tweeters) but should share the mount/projection with the aimable mid-range units..

I would assume that you'll want stereo.. (I would) so.. you need to decide how you want to wire the system. Let's say that your entry/exit(s) are at the extreme ends of the room (both ends would be optimal in case of emergencies) You may opt for either entire long-wall to be one channel and the opposite long wall to be the other. This gives you a stereo image along any center-point from front to rear of your shop.

Look for a 2nd hand/better quality home theater receiver/amp. (Hint: Denon) having a "SUB-OUT" channel.. which sends a line-level signal to a powered subwoofer cab that would be supplied separately by you. I have a Denon AVR1506 that I found in a my previous apartment's dumpster 15 years ago... Shocked and it still brings the thunder. Will it achieve Warp-Factor 12... well.. it always does for me.. but it's like comparing warped-wings.. no two are exactly alike..Smile

Listening to audio-programming at sustained high-levels will damage your hearing Phred.

Remember;  a powered subwoofer requires AC mains.. as do "active monitors" (powered-cabs which have been mentioned here in the thread)

Don't skimp on cabling/wiring! Re-solder/replace your connections if they look sketchy. I use a minimum 18AWG stranded-wire on my midrange cabs/circuits that I know will need to handle some wattage. If you have a spool of 18AWG lamp-wire; use that... and solder your connections whether they're banana, RCA or phono-plugs. Hard-wired is always a good choice.

Review a few circuit connection options/diagrams to assist in your system layout on the web weblink

Oh.. and consider covering any large acoustically-reflective surfaces (walls,floor and ceiling) with acoustical flame-retardent material. The reflection of sound-waves from hard-flat surfaces sets-up an alternate sound-wave that detracts from the listening program. It may not even be audible.. by most but reduce the reflection.. and listen again.

I hope I didn't complicate the matter. BTW I totally respect your four warp 12 choices. I did a cover of S & G's Scarborough Fair that I'd like to share with you.

Thanks Phred! I am home with a Covid variant.. and needed a good thread to revive me tonight!
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Post  fredvon4 Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:53 pm

THANKS Roddie I was hoping you weigh in...sorry to note you did not read all my wandering yack yack

I am indeed a well taught electrical engineer and very adept at audio components and such...

my home theater ( Denon Avr 7.1) is real bad ass with a simple powered Polk 10" sub and custom made Canadian Fluence speakers.

the simple 2.1 loud ass system for the shop had me over last 5 years failing in my desire as i bought one after another Logitech and Klipsch system...very very good audio quality, just not ear bleed loudness

arriving soon is a mediocre Sony stereo amp and uber cheap speakers noted above

here is a song I want to share with my neighbors (all over 500' away)

Angel Flight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70Ikj1hZDnw&list=RD70Ikj1hZDnw&start_radio=1
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Post  fredvon4 Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:59 pm

8 years Artillery
15 years Aviation maintenance

50+ years shooting stuff

too many rock concerts to recall

ears well damaged now with $5000 aids that I can shut off or remove....

At 67 years I bet I Can decide for myself to enjoy a uber loud song now and then....

thanks for the obvious concern but frankly....at my age, IDGAF about my ears no more


ROCK ON!
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Post  fredvon4 Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:20 pm

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Post  rsv1cox Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:26 pm


Got into Gordon Lightfoot Fred, but I posted that version of the 1812 just for you. Had to bring back memories.
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Post  fredvon4 Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:59 pm

Bob....my dad in the 50s had a decent stereo and was a sincere classical music guy ...Tchaikovsky - 1812 Overture was played frequently in our home

love it LOUD!
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Post  rsv1cox Fri Nov 18, 2022 8:05 am

fredvon4 wrote:Bob....my dad in the 50s had a decent stereo and was a sincere classical music guy ...Tchaikovsky - 1812 Overture was played frequently in our home

love it LOUD!

Always the Grand Fanale sign-off on PBS's "Capitol Fourth" each Fourth of July. Canons, smoke, fireworks, applause.

One of my best recollections of my Dad was when he mouthed the signature interior music of it. Pum, pum........Smile For some reason he got a big kick out of it.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Sat Nov 19, 2022 2:33 am

fredvon4 wrote:From e-bay for 50 bucks---new set of Rockville RockShelf 64B 400w Black 6.5" Home Theater Bookshelf Speakers/4 Ohm. From Amazon for 150 bucks ---Sony STRDH190 2-ch Home Stereo Receiver. Worst case the cheap speakers suck and then need to find another set.
Why not a sound bar system? They can be had for less than $200, have decent bass, easy to hook up, have reasonable volume. This one, a 36" one, bought it and mounted it under a 40" TV on a roll around stand, has decent bass, price $69 before tax.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/onn-2-1-Soundbar-System-with-2-Speakers-and-Built-in-Subwoofer-36/379889805
Need a very loud shop stereo system fed by my PC 2022-114
Walmart photo.
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Post  Yabby Sat Nov 19, 2022 5:22 am

If you want Warp Factor Loud, get a Marshall Major https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Major and obviously speakers to sink it. lol!

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