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Post  Yabby Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:39 am

I flew my new plane today, had 3 awesome flights before it crashed. Luckily very little damage. The plane is my own design and has some slight changes from previous builds of my base design. I actually think the small design tweaks were good. But the creash was weird. The plane is very light. It is 2.5mm balsa all through. the wingspan is 38cm/15 inches and the chord is 13cm/5 1/2 inches. The fuse is also 13cm/5 1/2 inches to the foward eadge of the elevator. the elevator is 350mm/1 1/2 inches by 180mm/ 7 inches. the engine is a surestart crankcase, Grey horseseshoe backplate with helicopter mount and rubber band mounting. The engine uses a Killer bee crank, TD cyclinder, standard cox glow head. No pressure. It launches from a launch table with a rear stooge and has a single drop off wheel. I was using 35 foot dacron. 10lb fishing line. I know the plane isnt a fancy built up wing stunter or such, but I can build it out of 1 sheet of 2.5mm balsa and I reckon its more capable then me. Lol. So its quick, cheap, easy, to build, launches easy on my own with dropoff wheel. so pretty much works for what Im after.

any Thoughts on Crash Please Pcrash10

It flew with great line tension even though it was quite windy. The engine power seems to match the plane quite well. It certainly goes where I point it and does it quickly but it is not wildly twitchy. It is easy to control, but does what you tell it. but not that horrible twitchy where the plane starts hunting/flutter in gusty windy conditions. I had managed my normal loops, wingovers, and some lazy eights, and was really pleased with how well I could steer it in a wingover by feeding both down and up to it, as I just wanted to see what it could/might be able to do. i was starting to think it might have enough line tension and controil to try going invered from a wingover. But, then I crashed it. Lol. Weird crash, yes, I did lots of things I shouldnt have, but when Im in the groove and just having a blast I sometimes forget to think as to where the wind might be. I did or started a loop with the wind coming at me, so it would be wanting to lift the planes outer wingtip and push it back at me. I had done this several times earlier and gotten away with it. Maybe this time the plane was going slower, as I did this loop after a series of loops and wingovers with no flat laps inbetween, so speed may have been down a bit. Anyway this time it did lift the wing right up, pushed the plane way back at me and as it went over the top it rolled the plane over, pointed its nose down and did several sort of rolling spinning flops straight at the ground, miraculously it did not cut the lines in the prop or tangle them in the plane. about 3/4 way down I got enough input back even with slack lines to get it level and nose more toward level before it crashed, so I was quite lucky that there is almost zero damage. But, I did not install the nylon elevator hinges the way @Ken Cook had explained and recommended to do, in great detail. Basically I was in a hurry, to fly, I had 5 minute epoxy, and thought, yep that will see me fly in the morning. In the photo of the plane you can see the front half of one of the elevator hinges has broken off.

My question which maybe can never be answered for sure, or maybe some of you have had enough of these things happen to know. did the hinge break away when the plane crashed or did it break away in the air and that is what caused the wild loss of control. Because until that moment it had flown fautlessly in those conditions and I had looped with the wrong side cross wind several times. It did come back at me as expected, but no wild loss of control. I would like to think the hinge broke away in the air. lol, but I suspect it was some bad flying and when it crashed the forces run to the back of the plane and popped the hinge. I dont like flying planes with very much weight at all on the outer wing. Its probably just a bad habbit from my youth when we didnt even know of such things. I have also sometimes found that too much weight on the outer wing makes the plane harder to fly in windy conditions as it, I think the term is Hinges with a lot of force and up and down motion of the wing in cross winds, and I would prefer the plane to come back at me than do that. As I find generally when it comes back at me, it will fly out of it, and even though the lines are slack you actually still have quite a lot of elevator control. So, I tend to use very little outer wing weight, Maybe the lesson is, dont do those type of maneuveres with the wind coming the way it was and reasonably strong and gusty which is worse. I know, or believe you should do these things down wind, but sometimes I get enthusiatic and forget. Lol. A friend of mine keeps telling me I would have less problem with that sort of thing if I flew my old Dominator and Liquidator wings rather than Half-A. But i like Half-A. cheers sunny Thumbs Up

Airplane cheers
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Post  getback Sun Dec 04, 2022 7:14 am

My first Question is what is that piece of wire at the evel. that's not hooked up or is there a coupler that holds them together ? Sounds like with the bust of wend and just wind in general you were doing good to get as many flights in as you did before crashing , As you said hard to tell when the hinge came loose but if were me i would say damn thing broke in the air and made me crash lol! lol! This Site Rocks!
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Post  Ken Cook Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:01 am

First thing is, let's define light. I don't believe it's light however, heavy would help in the wind here. Just so your aware, between 5-6 oz's is where a good flying model will be. Were not going for competition flights here and if the model is nearing 10 oz's, I wouldn't sweat it. The main problem I see here is your plane choices, it has no wingspan and if it's not cranking fast and hauling the mail, it's going to take a dump. Just a quick view of your picture, I see number one mistake, your pushrod is in the furthest hole on your bellcrank. Move the pushrod to the innermost hole and BE AWARE THIS IS GOING TO SLOW THE CONTROLS DOWN. You will need to offer more hand movements to your handle when flying this way. This will calm the twitchies.  Your throwing the elevator too much and this is stalling your plane as it's more than likely acting like a air brake. You need 20-25 degrees max, I use half of that on most of my models. If you feel it isn't turning after it's reduced add a little clay to the tail. I'm not too keen on your wing tip weight install, not that nuts won't suffice, it's the attachment that bothers me. That can come off and it hurts because I've been hit with stuff like that, I would secure it firmly. If the rubber band is passing through the hole, the weight is dropping and then coming back up and slapping into the wing which can also cause funny business.

           Your plane is doing all it can do just to stay aloft, once you pull it up into the maneuvers, the plane is going to stall and fall out of the sky. To improve on this, I see a few things that may or may not help but I would utilize my information to prevent issues. Your tank is too far outboard. Move the tank closer to the back of the engine and closer to the centerline of the plane. This may require you to chop out some of that block on the back of the firewall.  If you can get that tank directly behind the engine then DO IT. Make that fuel line as short as possible. Seeing that you crash with regularity, I would epoxy a piece of 1/8" ply to the front of your tank the same outline as the end cap. Clean it, and epoxy it on this way in the event of a crash, the plywood takes the impact and saves the tank from being punctured by any obstructions. In addition, cap the top vent which will prevent siphoning just after fueling and when the engine is running. This will also enhance fuel draw slightly, this will not impact maneuverability as the tank will still work inverted or upright.

        I'm not looking at the plane as I'm thousands of miles away. It's imperative to look at your plane from behind. Place the plane nose down on the table and pick it up by the tail holding the wings level. Sight the trailing edge staring from left to right. It's not impossible for a slab wing plane to be twisted or warped . If one side is down or up it's going to cause issues. You can heat the wing with a heat gun and twist it holding it for a minute or two until it cools. Heat it, hold it. This can take several attempts to correct and must be checked prior to flying. If for instance, the inboard trailing edge is high or the outboard is low or a combination of both, the plane is going to fly outboard wing tip high and will want to roll in.  Another thing I've seen is outboard warped up which causes the outboard wing to drop which offers plenty of line tension upright until you go inverted and then it flies out of control across the circle when inverted.

I gave a very descriptive essay on using pin hinges. That was essentially meant for larger .35 size planes and larger. The problem with 1/2A is the wood thickness. It's not impossible to use pin hinges with 1/2A it's just extremely difficult even for the experienced. I use pin hinges in wood generally 3/16" thick. Sorry, I'm not with the metric system but I'm guessing that be a bit larger than 4 mm. I use a woven Dacron hinge material or Ceconite which is real aircraft covering. I cut rectangles about 3/8" wide by 1" long and use fast drying cement or dope to attach. Another method I mentioned is the stitched hinge which is sewing figure eights using dental floss. After I tie the knot I secure with a dot of cement and NOT CA.
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Post  rsv1cox Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:36 am

I enjoyed reading your whole flight experience Yabby. Good for you constructing and flying your plane. I just wish I could be with you flying control line.

I share Eric's curiosity about the lone wire.

Ken as usual gave expert advice. I would echo cloth hinges instead of the pins even when epoxied on.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Sun Dec 04, 2022 9:31 am

Seems things were going fine until you had an elevator hinge come loose. I'd go to sewn hinges instead, they are easy to do and properly done, very rugged. However, another simple fix is to re-Epoxy the nylon hinge back in place, and loop thread sew through the holes in all hinges to the under side of the hinge, to fasten it firmly to the balsa. CA or dope / paint the sewn thread to lock it in place. Then you won't have the separation you experienced.

I would also move the wing tip line guide back a touch, to angle the aircraft more toward the outside of circle to give you greater line tension. It would point the engine outward more.

Otherwise given the windy weather conditions, seems you were doing fine.
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Post  Yabby Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:24 pm

thank you very much GallopingGhostler, Eric and Ken for your input and suggestions greatly appreciated. I Love This Forum!

i can and will make the mods suggested. Im going to build a new plane this arvo. Much the same but slightly different just to see what happens. I will incorporate All of the suggested mods! I fly 100 metres from the Ocean, and its not a nice calm coastal sort of spot. I struggle to get a day where the wind is not at least 15kmh 7.46 mph and gusting from 20 kmh to 25 kmh / 12.4 to 15.5 mph and changing direction regularly. those are the numbers for the good Days I can fly. If I travel inland to try and get away from it there is a huge ridge of hiles that goes for several hundred kilometeres running inland slightly away from the coast. On top of those hills is the biggest wind farm in the Sothern hemisphere. It provides more power than the state can use. so these conditions are what I have and I must say at times I find them tricky and yes I do tend to crash at times when a gust just picks my plane up and thows it 6 feet up or 6 feet down or straight back at me. But most of the time I fly without crashing and I do fly most weekends and most wednesdays regardless of the weather. If I crash due to lack of ability, know how, and or skill, I dont mind, but crashing due to MY poor construction does really annoy me as that, to me is a very different thing.

I have tried flying modells with larger wingspans up here, models with designs from Outerzone and also a 049 slab win ringmaster, and have found them really really limited in the wind, hence my tendency to reduce wingspan to help cut through it. I hope towards the end of Feb is we get a heat wave of temps over the old 100 for some weeks or even a month I should get some awesome early morning and late evening truly calm conditions. when I fly back in the city where its much calmer my larger wing span models are really nice to fly, and fly well and easily,

I will move my tank inboard as suggested, I will fix the hinges - Im actually thinking of stapling them then epoxy them. I will fix the way I attach wingtip weight. That is a great point about the safety of it!! I had not considered that and regardless of the issues the method may cause to flight, safety is even more important. I have checked and was extrenely careful when building and checked again after the paint had dried that the wing was not warped, was level, and the tailplane was also level, not warped etc. I have retired several planes after their slab wings warped at one end, as I didnt know how to fix them. I will in future try the heat gun as suggested. I will try moving my controls in on the bell crank, I understand what you are describing as to reducing the twitchiness by requiring a wider range of input. I will move the leadout guide a touch further back.

I think the piece of loose wire near the elevator is the push rod where it goes through the horn and then I have just bent it very much foward and there is a piece about inch and half pointing foward. I dont normally do that. I was putting the controls on the morning I flew and looking out the window and the wind was getting worse and worse so a quick and dirt solution was implemented as I wanted to get to the oval pronto. It actually works quite well, but is ugly and will always be questioned. Lol.

thanks everyone for responding and the suggestions and advice. thanks Ken, I have read and understand more now, and will build all of this into a new one, which Im about to start building. I dont have scales, but I will build the next one out of 2mm balsa / 5/64, but the elevator I will keep at 2.5mm as I dont want it breaking in the middle as I have experienced in the past.! I am going to build two of them. I will incorporate all of the suggestions into both. but on one of them I am going to taper the leading edge back slightly. And also greatly reduce the wing area in the outer 1/3d of each side by tapering the back of the wing more severely towards the fuse. I think this might help stop the wingtips getting knocked around so much. but I will taper it such that I have more area or get some of it back towards the fuse and rear of the wing, without altering the chord in the centre. Its only 1 sheet of balsa to build, so no great loss however it works.

With my fuel tank, I have the bottom tube blocked off/capped with a piece of blocked fuel tube. Is that the same as blocking the top one? I had thought that would be ok, but there is much I do not know! So happy to understand.

thanks everyone. I will try and incroporate all of these experience based suggestions! greatly appreciated.! I Love This Forum!

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Post  Ken Cook Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:47 am

Capping the bottom is the same as the capping the top. The main reason I suggest moving your tank is just due to keeping the engine running at it's best. When the tank is outboard, it's struggling for fuel which places it automatically in a lean condition. This increasingly becomes leaner and leaner on standard vent, when you were running pressure, it was probably less prevalent.
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Post  Ken Cook Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:48 am

Capping the bottom is the same as the capping the top. The main reason I suggest moving your tank is just due to keeping the engine running at it's best. When the tank is outboard, it's struggling for fuel which places it automatically in a lean condition. This increasingly becomes leaner and leaner on standard vent, when you were running pressure, it was probably less prevalent.  A good practice is just to keep your fuel line as short and as straight of a shot as possible.
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Post  Yabby Mon Dec 05, 2022 5:04 am

Thanks for clarifying Ken! Thumbs Up I just wasnt sure if there might be some small difference I wasnt aware of. I can certainly improve the placement of the tank as you have suggested and shorten the fuel line quite a bit and I am happy to understand and learn of such things that are good practice, as all of those little good practice things, be it model planes, cars,boats, big cars, big boats, its getting all of those little "good practice" things right, that often makes the difference between a really good performing and reliable jigger and one that is always problematic or just not quite right. Thumbs Up

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Post  getback Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:38 am

May be , bee good if you can post pics. and write up on the new planes your building before attempting to fly them ? Ken is real good at helping and flys more than most of us and understands the models more , This Site Rocks!
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Post  Yabby Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:25 am

rsv1cox wrote:I enjoyed reading your whole flight experience Yabby.  Good for you constructing and flying your plane.  I just wish I could be with you flying control line.  

I share Eric's curiosity about the lone wire.  

Ken as usual gave expert advice.  I would echo cloth hinges instead of the pins even when epoxied on.  

Hey Bob, that would be really cool, we could pour someones diesel fuel on a plane and .................. lol! Nah, that would be very wrong. Nobody would ever have done that. lol! Thats why we are not allowed to have good things. Very Happy

Im enjoying your Mazda build Log. Thumbs Up

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Post  NEW222 Tue Dec 06, 2022 7:25 pm

Just been busy again lately, and am late to the party. But I will also echo the suggestion of sewn hinges. I personally went to them and immediately fell in love with the simplicity and easiness to do them.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Tue Dec 06, 2022 7:33 pm

Yabby wrote:Hey Bob,  that would be really cool, we could pour someones diesel fuel on a plane and ..................  lol! Nah, that would be very wrong. Nobody would ever have done that. lol!  Thats why we are not allowed to have good things. Very Happy
Yup, sacrificial fire, Doh! that wouldn't be a way to go with that aircraft! Shocked Devil  No!



lol!

On a serious note, back in the day, rudder only aircraft had low powered actuators like the Adams magnetic ones, so a frictionless hinge system as thread hinges was a given. With the rudder constantly banging to both sides at a constant rate (about 144 beats per second), they stood up well to the time test, and this was with regular sewing thread. (I prefer the slightly heavier button thread.)

I even used thread hinges with servo systems, so efficient and effective they are on half-A planes. But, on some control line aircraft, I used over and under cloth strips for hinges, too. Either worked really good. One can even by carefully sealing a line with two strips of Monokote, make over and under hinges like the cloth ones too, which work well with Monokoted finishes.
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Post  Yabby Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:47 am

lol! the Crazy World Of Arthur Brown, That fella was truly a nutter! but quite entertaining :-)

Thanks for the sugestions and input GallopingGhostler Thumbs Up when I flew planes in my early teens before discovering Motorbikes, Girls, and Rock Music, in various orders of that, I used to use cloth strip hinges and they worked reasonably well. Im sure they can work Great! but I am not Great at building and making stuff. Although I love doing it.

I cannot make something square now matter how hard I try. I can even drill holes crooked with a drill press. lol! My dad used to build my race bikes for me. Although I could do the simple jobs such as replacing pistons, rings, clutch plates carby rebuilds, jetting, ignition timing. but Dad did the serious stuff. I was just lucky I hade great reflexes and could ride fast without knowing how or why. If I had, had to do the bike myself I would have been useless.

My new plane I built Last night. The white stuff wrapped around the hinges between elev and stab is plumbers tape, thats my way of stopping paint getting into the hinges. Couldnt paint today or tonight due to wind so bad!! maybe tomorrow. The tank will fit up real snug behind the firewall and that should be a lot lot closer to the engine and much further inboard. If the plane doesnt work so good, its less than a sheet of balsa, so I will build a bigger one next. I do have a number of 'proper' Outerzone planes and a Ringmaster I have built from the plans, I dont fly only my designs. Lol.

If you look at the picture of the elev and the hinge, you will note I was good to my word, and I have stapled, with a kids school stapler through the hinge and the 2.5mm balsa and epoxied. that hinge will not pop again! lol! Might be rough and lack elegance. but I reckon it will work, and it was really easy. :-)

any Thoughts on Crash Please Im110

any Thoughts on Crash Please Im210

any luck I will get to fly it this sunday. :-)

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Post  Yabby Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:57 am

NEW222 wrote:Just been busy again lately, and am late to the party. But I will also echo the suggestion of sewn hinges. I personally went to them and immediately fell in love with the simplicity and easiness to do them.

thanks for that. Thumbs Up I will look them up on the net. I know lots of Forums probably this one included have threads thatexplain how to do them. i will try it out on some scrap pieces of Balsa and see how I go. I have no doubt they work! I do doubt my ability to do them well though. Probably have bits of loose thread in places and stuff. but I will try. I know a thread on here a couple of months ago talked about them.

the nice nylon hinges and the stapler just seemed so easy. lol! but i will give them a try. No try, no learn! Old Bugger Thumbs Up

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Post  GallopingGhostler Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:10 pm

Just think Yabby, Speaking of Arthur Brown in his later years, your plane has a spirit that will never die. Stereo Horsing Around lol!

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Post  Yabby Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:48 pm

GallopingGhostler wrote:Just think Yabby, Speaking of Arthur Brown in his later years, your plane has a spirit that will never die. Stereo Horsing Around lol!

wow! I just read his Wiki page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Brown_(musician) . "Brown has been lead singer of various groups, most notably the Crazy World of Arthur Brown and Kingdom Come, followed by a varied solo career as well as associations with Hawkwind, the Who and Klaus Schulze. In the late 1960s, the Crazy World of Arthur Brown's popularity was such that the group shared bills with the Who, Jimi Hendrix, the Mothers of Invention, the Doors, the Small Faces and Joe Cocker, among others.[2]"

He was performing last year still, and the number of bands he played with is quite amazing and the people who list him as a major influence and collaborator is amazing. And also the films and things he has been in, or provided music for etc........ What an amazing musician. No, Entertainer!!! whole Genres are based around what he was doing in th early 60s. For those not aware, of the extent of his influence, as I wasnt, the wiki is really worth a read, and makes complete sense, as opposed to his on-stage personna. Lol.

thanks for pointing me at Arthur Brown, I knew about bits and pieces. But very interesting read. Thumbs Up I will have to search youtube for more of his early heavy/psychedelic stuff. cheers

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