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Post  Michpatriot Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:31 pm

Looking for advise from those who have successfully broken in this particular engine..I've had a few in the distant foggy past..they had spotty successes some ran great some were turds..I didn't know they were so picky on break in back then and just ran a tank or two rich and then ran them (R\C planes) tuning for throttle response. A couple worked good a couple were retired early. On this brand new one I want to do it right. My meager knowledge gleaned from here is as follows, heat gun to get cylinder up to temp..run it at high RPMs to keep heat..pre start up is where I'm murky, what oil do I pre-soak the cylinder in for 24 hrs?..
What prop? Should i run muffler? With muffler pressure? What % fuel? How long of runs and such?Norvel Big Mig C\L break in procedure? 16771710


Last edited by Michpatriot on Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  layback209 Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:51 pm

Hi Mich, excellent choice in engine. I like to  break these in like an rc car abc engine, has worked well for me, up to you though.  The manual mentions using an electric starter with the head off, and "soaking" the cylinder in oil for 24hrs in advance.  I chose not to do this over concern of rod wear.  iI think it's keeping the engine at operating temp that saves your rod end wear and the methonal is what cools the parts.   Can't go wrong with the following the instructions though.  

I Pre-heat to about 180F, 5x3 prop, 20% oil 15% nitro is perfectly fine.  (50/50 castor to synthetic).  Yes muffler pressure. Heat cycle every 1oz. Stop and let it cool after 1oz before restarting.  

Once it's running your going to let it run wet then lean it for a min till it changes tone to 2cycle, it will build heat then fatten it up too cool.  Repeat.  After about 4oz it will run cooler, smooth out and hold a nice steady note.  And the oil will look clean and clear, when it's runing in it will be grayish.  

What your doing is finalizing part fitment, specifically the piston to the cylinder.  While this is happening there is more friction which generates heat so the oil and fatter tune help dissipate the extra heat.

These have a taper fit, and preheating actually moves the taper or pinch area up the cylinder do to thermal expansion which will reduce run in stress.  So try to keep the Temps at least 160-180F to reduce the friction, but below 250F.  To much heat is no good either. Hope I didn't confuse you.  I'll see if I can upload the owners manual for you to take a look at.

Here is a break in video I made, have fun let us know how you make out;


Last edited by layback209 on Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:50 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post  MauricioB Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:24 pm

Hello, the Norvel .049 or .061 are excellent, only that the top dead center can be too tight, to the point that at first it is difficult to do things in a traditional way.
What you are going to see in the videos that I leave here are my own. You can decide to do it by this method or not, but if you respect the times of the video, oils and fuels, you will enjoy a very powerful and safe engine.
Details:
In the video you will see at the beginning, I add mineral oil.
I heat the cylinder to the point that when turning the propeller, the pinch disappears and right there I apply the starter for a few seconds, take the time of the video, it should not be exceeded, the times of the video are real, it is not edited, for that reason.
After using the mineral oil, I apply the fuel itself for norvel, which will be the one that will be used later for its march.
I use a Cox 6 x 3 prop initially and then an APC 5 x 3.
Fuel
Castor:20%
nitro:5%
Methanol: 75%
If you have doubts, before doing something, please, leave your question here, regards!

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Post  MauricioB Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:29 pm

You can see the Norvel .061 carrying a 7 x 3, yes! a 7 x 3 from Master Airscrew!


And here with an APC 6x3
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Post  Michpatriot Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:20 pm

Thank you so much for the reply Mauricio, I spoke with you a bit in the comments of your video. Thanks for clarification on the fuel used to flush the cylinder and the mineral oil in the lapping of the heated cylinder.. The props you list I have on hand ..great information.
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Post  1/2A Nut Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:28 pm

Here is my Norvel doing it's 3rd 1oz break in run as a test flight.



.061 AME Norvel with a Profi .8cc Tuned Pipe
150 deg exhaust timing
APC 4.2x4 2oz of bench running prior to first flight
1 oz tank 25% nitro 20% castor.

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Post  Michpatriot Fri Feb 24, 2023 5:11 pm

You done with the pipe yet? Ill put it to good use.
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Post  1/2A Nut Fri Feb 24, 2023 10:58 pm

Michpatriot wrote:You done with the pipe yet? Ill put it to good use.

Model: PRO-08cc-TP
Shipping Weight: 0.5lbs
Units in Stock: 2
Manufactured by: Profi Engines


https://www.hobbyclub.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1803


These won't last 2 left for the quick..

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Post  TD ABUSER Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:04 am

The engine should be dismantled, inspected and cleaned. Then just assemble the lower end with a prop and the back plate and give the prop some test flicks. It should rotate freely and the prop should always come to a stop...GRADUALLY.
If not, then polish the journal with 1000 grit sandpaper [with the crank chucked into a cordless drill]

Otherwise..just run the engine and cross your fingers for luck.... Very Happy
Beyond doing that I like running these engines on crankcase pressure.
They run fine with the muffler but I always ended up using stainless "safety wire" to tie the mufler to the engine block.
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Post  layback209 Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:41 am

TD ABUSER wrote:The engine should be dismantled, inspected and cleaned. Then just assemble the lower end with a prop and the back plate and give the prop some test flicks. It should rotate freely and the prop should always come to a stop...GRADUALLY.
If not, then polish the journal with 1000 grit sandpaper [with the crank chucked into a cordless drill]

Otherwise..just run the engine and cross your fingers for luck.... Very Happy
Beyond doing that I like running these engines on crankcase pressure.
They run fine with the muffler but I always ended up using stainless "safety wire" to tie the mufler to the engine block.

Great suggestion.  Thumbs Up . I had a new super tiger evo .12 that I was going to break in. Before cranking it up I thought better inspect this one for debris... glad I did it was full of swarf.  I'll start doing that with these too now haha.  I've never seen a nuance with O.S., SH, or Force engines, but it is rolling the dice. You never know
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Post  andrew Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:51 am

TD ABUSER wrote:............
They run fine with the muffler but I always ended up using stainless "safety wire" to tie the mufler to the engine block.

I've had the "stinger" portion of the muffler work loose in flight -- luckily, the muffler, stinger and muffler spring stayed attached to the plane. After that, I will decide at what angle I want the stinger to be pointed and then JB weld it to the muffler body. This ends up fixing it permanently, but usually it will work well with most planes. Some folks have drilled it then added a screw to lock it in place.

Safety wiring it is a good idea.
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Post  TD ABUSER Sat Feb 25, 2023 2:00 pm

andrew wrote:
TD ABUSER wrote:............
They run fine with the muffler but I always ended up using stainless "safety wire" to tie the mufler to the engine block.

I've had the "stinger" portion of the muffler work loose in flight -- luckily, the muffler, stinger and muffler spring stayed attached to the plane.  After that, I will decide at what angle I want the stinger to be pointed and then JB weld it to the muffler body. This ends up fixing it permanently, but usually it will work well with most planes.  Some folks have drilled it then added a screw to lock it in place.

Safety wiring it is a good idea.

andrew ..I forgot that the stinger required supplemental restraint too.
I was never any good at making my tie wire jobs look good....that would be your department....
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Post  TD ABUSER Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:48 pm

MauricioB wrote:
I use a Cox 6 x 3 prop initially and then an APC 5 x 3.

I would break the engine in with the 5 x 3 and then switch to the 6 x 3.

The needle tended to drift during the run. Some people used a short piece of fuel line to help clamp it in place..but I ended up using a few wraps of tie wire around the spring steel clips to secure the needle.
The Big Mig with open exhaust would do the 4-2-4 "Stunt Break" nicely.
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Post  Michpatriot Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:05 pm

Ok looks like I'm going to take it apart and look things over..I've got fine paper1000-3000 grit and I'm going to get the crank to coast if it doesn't upon inspection..
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Post  Michpatriot Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:06 pm

1/2A Nut wrote:
Michpatriot wrote:You done with the pipe yet? Ill put it to good use.

Model: PRO-08cc-TP
Shipping Weight: 0.5lbs
Units in Stock: 2
Manufactured by: Profi Engines


https://www.hobbyclub.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1803


These won't last 2 left for the quick..

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Is hobby club still in business? Today I was warned to steer clear by a fellow modeler.. I was looking at props engines and pipes there online last week and now I don't know??
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Post  TD ABUSER Sat Feb 25, 2023 8:12 pm

Michpatriot wrote:Ok looks like I'm going to take it apart and look things over..I've got fine paper1000-3000 grit and I'm going to get the crank to coast if it doesn't upon inspection..

Hey man..if this procedure was good enough for Larry Driskill..... Cool
Larry figured that the factory crank fit wasn't loose enough and ended up creating a "runaway" overheat condition that migrated into the piston liner area...causing a loss of lubrication and many scored pistons.
Of course for combat the needle settings had to be the most aggressive you could get away with or else you'ld be dog meat right after they blow the horn to start the match.
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Post  andrew Sat Feb 25, 2023 8:57 pm

TD ABUSER wrote:
Hey man..if this procedure was good enough for Larry Driskill..... Cool
Larry figured that the factory crank fit wasn't loose enough and ended up creating a "runaway" overheat condition that migrated into the piston liner area...causing a loss of lubrication and many scored pistons.
...........

This condition can cause the engine to begin to sag or slow some time into the run as the journal heats up, occasionally to the point of stopping.  While the crankcase is always hot, the crank bearing will be far too hot to touch.  Larry Driskill was good with these engines.

TD ABUSER wrote:
I would break the engine in with the 5 x 3 and then switch to the 6 x 3.

The needle tended to drift during the run. Some people used a short piece of fuel line to help clamp it in place..but I ended up using a few wraps of tie wire around the spring steel clips to secure the needle.

Norvel Big Mig C\L break in procedure? Needle10

I generally used a 6x3 for breakin just because I felt the added flywheel effect would keep the engine running long enough to loosen the top end of the cylinder.  Usually, I switched to a 5x3 or 5.5x3 after some run time.  I liked the 5x3 and 5.7x3 APC, but they were sometimes hard to find, so I usually cut a MA 6x3 down to 5.5" or 5" just the let the engine wind up.
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Post  Michpatriot Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:18 pm

This is great info fellas! Thanks for all the replies.
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Post  Michpatriot Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:07 pm

Well fellas the little Norvel got taken all apart, inspected, cleaned, oiled and reassembled.. All looked good, crank coasted with a prop, not too tight..so today the break in started..with the head off I oiled the cylinder, used a heat gun to relax the pinch, and used the hornet for spinning it up, 6-8second bursts on the starter, then re-oil, repeat making sure the crank had oil behind the prop hub thrust area. Then doused cylinder with Brodak's 15% fuel and spun it with the Hornet starter a couple times. I then reassembled it with the 3 shims it came from the factory with..mounted a 6-3 Cox grey prop and setup the muffler pressure and fuel line connected to a 4oz tank. It fired easily and initially ran at 17 thousand.. Needle was sketchy at first (as to be expected) but after 2oz ran acceptable.. I ran 2oz at a time letting it cool and re-heat-cycle..getting a few hundred RPMs gain every so often..it stayed well below the 250° heat crayon I used to check the head with(old school) I noticed a funny thing, when running needled for top attainable rpm, resting a finger on the needle would gain a few hundred rpm, take your finger off and loose them rpm..but try to needle the rpm and it wouldn't maintain..so I alternated resting my finger on the needle and coaxed the rpm..then after a oz or so of fuel run this way the needle would then be allowed to get the rpm attained by holding a finger on the needle..funny it wanted me to hold its hand with every step LOL! After a pint of off and on running, I switched to a 6-2 APC and gained a bit of rpm now it'll run at 20,600.. I got it to hand flip start.. with a five flip carb covered prime..its getting a bit easier to flip the prop now as long as you don't flip real slow to find the pinch..
Happy camper so far..
Joel
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Post  andrew Sat Mar 04, 2023 11:35 am

Michpatriot wrote:.............I noticed a funny thing, when running needled for top attainable rpm, resting a finger on the needle would gain a few hundred rpm, take your finger off and loose them rpm..but try to needle the rpm and it wouldn't maintain..so I alternated resting my finger on the needle and coaxed the rpm..then after a oz or so of fuel run this way the needle would then be allowed to get the rpm attained by holding a finger on the needle.............
Joel

If you're having to steady the needle, you may be getting some bleed air causing your mixture to vary slightly.  If you haven't already tried it, add fuel tubing over the end -- this will keep the needle from vibrating on the threads and block any bleed air.  Make sure it is long enough to press tightly against or slip over the barrel nut and slide over the needle body .  Some of the early NORVELs had tiny orings just inside of the knurled portion - these could be lost or cracked from age.

One thing I forgot (not unusual) was when you reassembled the carb, did you screw the barrel all the way in? You want to screw it in until it stops, then back it out just enough for the barrel hole to match up with the venturi and give full rotation.


Last edited by andrew on Sat Mar 04, 2023 1:23 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Additional information)
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Post  layback209 Sat Mar 04, 2023 4:00 pm

Awesome work! Sounds like it's going to be a great power plant for you. I like how you run it in. Thumbs Up Nice. It's always awesome to see these engines start to come alive. They just get better and better.

One thing I noticed on my norvels was that there was an airleak at the venturi to crankcase bolt. I only discovered it by accident spilled some fuel and noticed bubles from that area when flipping the prop. You can check by putting a few drops of rubbing alcohol on the bolt and nut, flip look for bubbles and hissing. I covered that area with permitex grey and gained 2mins on a 1oz tank!!!!!! Went from about 3:45 to almost 6min flights. On my brodak 1/2a zero. Blew me away. Eyebrows

You can also make replacement orings, via a dowel and a scalpel. Slice the generic oring in half or so until it fits snug and you don't have to press down excessively to line the bolt holes up.

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Post  Michpatriot Sat Mar 04, 2023 5:07 pm

Awesome little tip! Thanks I'm gonna check it out! I did seal the needle with fuel line but that carb bolt is gonna get a dab of sealant so it won't leak later on..
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Post  Ken Cook Sat Mar 04, 2023 6:49 pm

Usually, it's the o-ring under the carb that usually fails.  They squash out. This method can repair both issues. The earlier carbs were epoxied in. I still do this. I use JB weld and apply just enough on the top of the case and a little on the sides. If I need to remove it, I hit it with a heat gun. Any residual JB weld easily cleans off with rubbing alcohol. This is where installing the Cox 128 TPI spraybar into that carb works well. You can insert a piece of 5/32" tubing over the spraybar and solder it onto the spraybar, the entire assembly can be JB welded into that carb which works superior over the Norvel assembly.
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Post  Michpatriot Sat Mar 04, 2023 7:41 pm

Ok Ken Can you post any pics? I'm game just want a little bit of visual of the process..Ill go to the hobby robber Monday and get some brass tube.
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Post  Ken Cook Sat Mar 04, 2023 8:02 pm

If your choice is to run this engine on bladder, I would remove the carb entirely. The 128 goes through the case at the bolt hole. I was able to press mine in using the knurls of the spraybar. There's so many variations of Norvel cases, it all depends on what you have. Some need tubing to size it down, some need to be drilled out a few thou. With your two hole spraybar, I would orientate it so that you can't see the holes looking down the throat. A single hole, I would point it right down the venturi the same angle as it's on the case. Mine is a single hole and it's right down the throat. My pic is a Cox 128, I cut them down to avoid vibrations wearing them out and damage. I then drill it for a piece of music wire which I solder in for the T handle.

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