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Post  rsv1cox Sat Jul 06, 2024 3:26 pm

I have two of these kits, one complete with the additional radial mount (pictured) which will be put away

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and one rather jumbled with missing parts and a cut up fuselage, but it came with a nice JW engine.  I cut out a new replacement fuselage and a wing piece.  

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I have no idea why the PO cut up the original fuselage.

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My Waterloo lately is finishing the completed model.  Looking at Roberts nicely rendered "Simple Glider" with natural balsa and single red paint application revived an old idea I have had for some time.  Just leave the model natural.  Some sanding sealer followed by a couple coats of clear.  I may do that.

But I do love color, especially the red, white, yellow on the box. Yellow especially, and look at the colorful Zipper that Kim is doing.

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Post  rdw777 Sat Jul 06, 2024 5:54 pm

Looking forward to your Bonanza build Bob…. I think it, FireBee, and Firebaby are a significant part of pre Cox 1/2A history and worth exploring…. Thanks for the comment on the glider colors…. I tend to be in the less is more camp on small simple planes…A simple color or two on a neutral wood background causes the color to jump IMO…A lot of the old magazine articles suggested that approach…. I generally use tissue just because I can handle it better than paint…Lite and simple to repair too….. Not everyone’s choice though…. Decorating is a very subjective thing…. Kind of depends on the subject as well….
Bonanza could turn out very nice …. Fun to think of how you will finish something as it’s being built  Very Happy

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Post  rsv1cox Sat Jul 06, 2024 6:08 pm

Robert, I have no idea how you can take those colored pieces of tissue and apply them so accurately and without tearing.  Amazing. An airbrush could not do as well.
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Post  roddie Sun Jul 07, 2024 4:04 pm

rsv1cox wrote:Robert, I have no idea how you can take those colored pieces of tissue and apply them so accurately and without tearing.  Amazing. An airbrush could not do as well.  

Uh huh... yea.. what he said.. Laughing

CEF member DanMc (Dan McEntee) sent me a sample of what he referred to as Doctor's Paper; a disposable paper that covers examination-tables and tears-off a roll..) which he was experimenting with. Not sure whether it is shrinkable for open-frame construction.. but I'm curious now; if it could be used (painted/tinted) to make trim like Robert has.

Jim Walker Bonanza etc. Dan_mc10

Its' thickness is .002" but I have not tried to use any yet

I had a doctor's appointment this past week.. and saw a box of rolls under the table and thought.... Paranoid ....  Eyebrows
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Post  rdw777 Sun Jul 07, 2024 5:03 pm

Thanks Bob, Roddie Very Happy….. There was a time when raising a young family about all I could justify on modeling was rubber powered  free flight….. Learned a lot about tissue work during that time ….. I still have a pretty good supply of Esaki tissue, it’s  strong and holds its color well…. When I started flying gas again I just used what I had on hand….. Only regret is I’m running out of Sig Lite Coat dope which was my go to for working with tissue…. I ordered a few Sig Super Coat bottles while it was still available but I know it will shrink a lot more…. When I get ready to try it I’ll add some castor oil for retarder and test it on some thin balsa and maybe some open frames covered in tissue….. Thoughts from dope users?….Maybe it won’t be an issue if I stick with sheet surfaces…

I’ve read about people using that Doc paper Roddie…. I’ve taken a swatch or two from Dr visits…. Seems like it might be an OK substitute for light silk span…. If you decide to try it let us know how it works out….

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Post  944_Jim Sun Jul 07, 2024 10:33 pm

Gentlemen,

Dan Mc turned me onto this stuff several years back. I began calling it DocSpan as the more common name is a mouthful! I've used it on my models since sometimes around 2018 or so. I discovered it has good shrink-rate, but with no real bias. I believe that lends to it swagging between ribs as it pulls front to back as well as side to side. It takes dope and clear sanding lacquer fabulously. My next plane will have stringers across the leading edge and the paper installed close to bone dry to minimize the swag. Look for my Brown-Novotnik Mosquito. You can see the swag in that deep rib set. The paper was damp. It shrank. It swagged. I doped again and hit it with a hair dryer, which promptly put the outboard "flap" in the raised position. I hope to "use the raised flap" to offset the line weight. Yeah...that sounds like a good reason for the "flip tip."

The typical stuff I find in medical offices near me is the shiny-on-both-sides more crinkly stuff. Beware if you grab a few feet from your doctor's office. What you want is "every day crepe exam table paper," sold by Tidi (or McKesson), part number 98-1002 (18" wide) or 98-1004 (21" wide). I think McKesson uses different leading digits, but the last four are the same. It is commonly found in 125 foot rolls, but 250 foot rolls may be available. The real clue is the "every day crepe."

I got mine several years back as a single roll for about $13 delivered. I have not found a single roll source since. A broken box appeared on eBay many moons ago for practically peanuts.

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Post  Ken Cook Mon Jul 08, 2024 2:15 pm

The "Doc " paper was introduced on Stunt Hangar many years ago and I decided to try it on a 42" plane. My experience with it was not positive. I found it to not shrink like silkspan and even using Supercoat, it wasn't pulling out the wrinkles in the compound curves. It was removed and never used again. Polyspan works better aside from the fact it takes a fair amount of dope to obtain a good finish. Polyspan also doesn't have 1000 numbers attached to it. You order the Polyspan and you get what you ordered.

Polyspan will heat shrink prior to doping therefore the need to use a lot of taughtening dope is not required and is better for the longevity of the model. Especially for those using it on 1/2A's. I for one don't know why one would do that as I learned very early on that using silkspan covered models on 1/2A's is a total waste of time unless you want to repair the model everytime out. Using iron on covering is not heavier than a silkspan finish on a 1/2A.

As far as Lite Coat availability, I don't think were ever going to see Sig dope return. I was bs'd by Sig for 2 years telling me everytime I called that it would be in stock approx 2 weeks. Randolph offers non taughtening butyrate which is essentially Lite Coat. In addition, I don't like adding castor oil to dope. I know its what was done years back but it doesn't mix well and it can also cause fisheye issues not too mention lack of adhesion issues. Dave Brown Flex All is a terrific product which makes the final coats very supple and flexible. It can be hard to source but once you have it, a bottle will last forever. Adding it to Supercoat will essentially stop the shrinkage and plasticize it.
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Post  rdw777 Mon Jul 08, 2024 2:22 pm

Thanks Ken for mentioning those products…. Will look into them and try and source!!… Perfect Very Happy
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Post  Ken Cook Mon Jul 08, 2024 3:13 pm

The Doc paper would be fine on sheeting, open bays receives a big thumbs down from myself. The big problem I see with Sig products is that thinner is not available. This is essentially what makes Sig dope so good. The slower thinner offers a nicer shine, longer workability and no brush strokes when brushed. I was using Dupont 3608 S for years but it's not a substitute for the same workability Sig thinner offers. It was a fairly fast evaporative thinner but it was compatible with Brodak as well. The nice thing was I was purchasing the gallon for $24. The Dupont paint line is now Chromax and the 3608S is still available. It's no longer $24. Chromax offers 3602-S which I believe is similar to Sig.

The problem with these items is that purchasing them becomes difficult. The reality is they don't even want modelers spraying or brushing high voc paints and to obtain some of these products one needs to be in the business. My neighbor owns a body shop and even for him from his PPG paint line, the equivalent thinner I would require from PPG is $80 a gallon even at his cost. This is what makes buying direct from Randolph very easy. When I order from Randolph, it's essentially at my door the following day. Amazing service they have in regards to getting their product out the door.
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Post  rsv1cox Mon Jul 08, 2024 6:34 pm

I have a supply of old silkspan.  Last time I used it was on my Sterling Nieuport 28 re-build a couple of years ago.  I simply used Minwax sanding sealer both to glue it to the airframe and later to the silkspan itself.  It does a great job shrinking the silkspan and fixing it to the balsa.  Its water based.

The Bonanza is so much easier to build than scratching out the Firebaby Jr..  I only had to recreate a couple of pieces, the rest came from the partial kit.  

The V tail is extreme, thankfully the plans give the correct position to glue.  I'm sticking by wood glue as a substitute for epoxy.  I would prefer using epoxy but it makes such a mess and I always mix way to much.  I would think that most of us here do also.  Probably enough epoxy wasted world wide each year to glue the Titantic back together and refloat her.  

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Wing is glued up and sanded.  Not the prettiest balsa I have seen so perhaps instead of leaving it natural I will paint it like the box cover.

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Elevators present a problem as they are two different sizes, I will have to check my complete box to see which is correct.  I only have one control arm and it calls for two so I will have to build one.  Seems they must be ganged together.  But I have seen U/C planes where only one elevator was used.  

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Post  rsv1cox Tue Jul 09, 2024 7:28 pm

Progress. V tail makes this thing, sets it apart.  Used a jewelers triangle file to groove the lower part of the fuselage to accept it, angled the top.

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I checked the complete Bononza kit to determine the correct split elevator.  Mixed partial set had two different types.  Made a new one out of 3/32" and shaped it like the factory did.  

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Wen Mac only controlled the inside elevator on their model.

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Playing around with windshield/window options.  I do not like the external wrap-around plastic windshield supplied.  I don't care for the over lap.  Thinking channeling the fuselage and snapping in stryene, securing with formula 560 which dries clear.

Jim Walker Bonanza etc. P1017865
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Post  rsv1cox Fri Jul 12, 2024 3:48 pm

A bit of treated cloth, paper, some mahogany, balsa, wire, and plastic. Then box it and Fred Meyer makes maybe 50 to 75 cents.

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Add an engine, some glue, filler, sanding sealer, assemble and maybe 50+ years later it becomes a model airplane.

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Post  roddie Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:42 pm

Nice! If it were me..... I'd do the elevator/linkage the way that Wen Mac did it.

I have lots of old silk-span... really old.... Old Bugger Stuff that was in the Veco, Sterling, Goldberg and Top Flite kit-boxes that my Uncle gave me 30 years ago.. and they were probably 30 years old when he gave them to me. Many of those boxes had the unused silk-span, balsa and plywood scraps, glue-dotted plan-sheets, unused music-wire nose-gear, "Bear" sandpaper.. Celluloid sheets.. double-edge razor-blades.. empty dried-up glue-tubes.. memories. A couple of those boxes haven't been opened in 25+ years.
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Post  rsv1cox Sat Jul 13, 2024 8:14 am

Nice! If it were me..... I'd do the elevator/linkage the way that Wen Mac did it.


I'm thinking about it. Its like a 60 degree angle on the V tail and unless you get both control horns aligned perfectly parallel with the fuselage and the correct off-angle on the V tail your going to have binding. But I will probably screw it up and do it anyway. That, and I'm going to have to build the control horns out of popsicle sticks.

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My X son-in-law gifted me his Dad's stuff when he passed away, lot's of quality items in there but somehow I'm reluctant to use them. But they won't go to waste.

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Post  roddie Sat Jul 13, 2024 2:44 pm

There's some T-style horns you could use for that elevator.. and WOW... lots of nice goodies within view in that box!!! Saito 4-stroke.. O.S. engine box (?) Hobbico/Torque Master elec. starter.. and that's just what's in-view.. Clean my glasses

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Post  rsv1cox Sat Jul 13, 2024 3:26 pm

Gave me a chance to unbox it roddie and look it over.  The LA40 is around here someplace.  That blue box at the top is full of surgeons scalples.

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The trouble is, I have duplicates of all of this.  But I have put some of the hardware to use.

Also a partially built Cub.

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More caveman work on the Bonanza.  

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Post  rdw777 Sat Jul 13, 2024 5:54 pm

Hi Bob, I scanned OZ Bonanza CL plans to see if there was a better trick to hooking up that V-tail (both elevators used)…. Looks like about the same as on your JW plan detail…. Kind of weird geometry for a single shaft passing thru two horns but should be OK with good alignment….
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Post  roddie Sun Jul 14, 2024 10:13 am

Just a thought on that V-tail elev. link... Rusty K. (God rest his soul) had a "Yak" control-line model that he used a "lucky box" (??) type design to connect the flaps.

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Here's the THREAD..

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Post  rsv1cox Sun Jul 14, 2024 10:39 am

Thanks roddie, I think of Rusty frequently. He left us good memories. Good stuff that you contributed, I have used that link design before.

But, I got to thinking about the V tail design and PM'd Robert about it............

Robert, I have been thinking about the V tail. Pitch, roll, yaw. No rudder to kick over. In a bank it's an airfoil/rudder, reduced yaw. Slide slipping must be fun. The built in V angle must be critical. Strange. It must be ok they sold a lot of them.

The aerodynamics of it must be analyzed somewhere on the net but I have not had the time to look for it.

Meanwhile I continue to fool around with it.

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Post  rsv1cox Sun Jul 14, 2024 7:43 pm

Getting there,  but I broke the top off the canopy drilling out the holes to mount the landing gear.  Not a clean break either which will help in reattaching.  CA ought to blend right in.  Actually to my advantage, now I can cut a proper slot/groove for the windshield/window.  Better access.  Uprights defining the windows will have to be added after paint.  

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Stuff to be added.  Belly pan, controls etc..  Its never over until its over.

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Post  rsv1cox Yesterday at 5:58 pm

Last pieces of the puzzle.

Cemented the windshield/window in place and wicked some CA into the break. Stands out like a sore thumb but so what. Assemble, over-spray with clear add the controls and it's finished.

I like it. Might trace out another and paint it like the box picture. Pretty simple to do.

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