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Cox Engine of The Month
COX FUEL ?????
Page 1 of 1
COX FUEL ?????
Is this blend ok for Cox engines 0.049 . 0.074 , 0.09 ?
15 % Synthetic
5 % Castor oil
20 % Nitro
60% Methanol
15 % Synthetic
5 % Castor oil
20 % Nitro
60% Methanol
MANDALAY- Moderate Poster
- Posts : 16
Join date : 2024-08-09
Re: COX FUEL ?????
Mandalay,
Look at the left edge of the webpage...down low. You are looking for INFO. Inside of INFO is the original file blend sheets for Cox fuels.
My preference is 1/2&1/2 castor synth and 25% nitro. My wallet's preference is closer to 22% N, only because I buy 33% N truggy fuel (high synth, no castor), and adding castor and a bit of methanol to get 1/2&1/2 at 18-20% usually cuts the N down to just under 22%. This is just a function of blending a hotter fuel containing lots of synthetic oil to create a more castor-oriented blend.
Some suggest fuel MUST be blended based on mass (weight). I suggest getting castor is very important...and Cox engines run on anything from 15%-35% N quite satisfactorily. Just look at the original blends. I even ran my childhood Cox engines on Testors 10% fuel in a pinch. In short...mine may not be the perfect blend every time. But it has enough nitro to needle well and enough castor to protect the piston ball joint. I will caveat that with I fly alone, not in contests, so in the air is more fun than holding the plane making "Reoowww, Reoowww" noises. I'm only competing with the obstacles (life) to having a flying morning or afternoon. At that point any nitro is better than no nitro, and smelling burning fuel is cheaper therapy than an hour with a shrink.
I will also suggest mixing in small lots. It is easier to burn up several ounces of a blah blend as you dial in what you like. More N makes for faster burn rate, faster fly rate, sooner dizzies. Less N makes for sedate flying at a slower burn rate, and less dizzies. Of course, hair on fire is exciting...smashing a plane isn't. Remember, this is supposed to be fun!
Look at the left edge of the webpage...down low. You are looking for INFO. Inside of INFO is the original file blend sheets for Cox fuels.
My preference is 1/2&1/2 castor synth and 25% nitro. My wallet's preference is closer to 22% N, only because I buy 33% N truggy fuel (high synth, no castor), and adding castor and a bit of methanol to get 1/2&1/2 at 18-20% usually cuts the N down to just under 22%. This is just a function of blending a hotter fuel containing lots of synthetic oil to create a more castor-oriented blend.
Some suggest fuel MUST be blended based on mass (weight). I suggest getting castor is very important...and Cox engines run on anything from 15%-35% N quite satisfactorily. Just look at the original blends. I even ran my childhood Cox engines on Testors 10% fuel in a pinch. In short...mine may not be the perfect blend every time. But it has enough nitro to needle well and enough castor to protect the piston ball joint. I will caveat that with I fly alone, not in contests, so in the air is more fun than holding the plane making "Reoowww, Reoowww" noises. I'm only competing with the obstacles (life) to having a flying morning or afternoon. At that point any nitro is better than no nitro, and smelling burning fuel is cheaper therapy than an hour with a shrink.
I will also suggest mixing in small lots. It is easier to burn up several ounces of a blah blend as you dial in what you like. More N makes for faster burn rate, faster fly rate, sooner dizzies. Less N makes for sedate flying at a slower burn rate, and less dizzies. Of course, hair on fire is exciting...smashing a plane isn't. Remember, this is supposed to be fun!
_________________
Never enough time to build them all...always enough time to smash them all!
944_Jim- Diamond Member
-
Posts : 2018
Join date : 2017-02-09
Age : 59
Location : NE MS
Re: COX FUEL ?????
Many thanks for the heads up.
I looked at the formulas. They range in Nitro 10% > 15% > 30% with the percentage of methanol reduced by the increase in Nitro. The other items Caster oil and synthetic being the same.
I am Industrial Chemist so making my own blend is very easy. I can get all the individual items so I can blend them myself.
The synthetic is Koltz KL200 ( KL 201 doesnt exist )
I looked up all the specific gravities of the components and they do have the same values as noted in the cox formulas.
I prefer to do by weight so much easier and cleaner.
With that I can blend any ratio I wish.
Which ratio would you recommend ?
I looked at the formulas. They range in Nitro 10% > 15% > 30% with the percentage of methanol reduced by the increase in Nitro. The other items Caster oil and synthetic being the same.
I am Industrial Chemist so making my own blend is very easy. I can get all the individual items so I can blend them myself.
The synthetic is Koltz KL200 ( KL 201 doesnt exist )
I looked up all the specific gravities of the components and they do have the same values as noted in the cox formulas.
I prefer to do by weight so much easier and cleaner.
With that I can blend any ratio I wish.
Which ratio would you recommend ?
MANDALAY- Moderate Poster
- Posts : 16
Join date : 2024-08-09
Re: COX FUEL ?????
Note the Cox formulas are Percentage by volume
The 30% formula actually is 36.49% by weight
LITERS % BY VOLUME S.G KGS % BY WEIGHT
METHANOL 455..........50................0.7955.............361.9525.......42.86
CASTOR 164..........18................0.9635.............158.014.........18.71
NITRO 273...........30................1.129...............308.217.........36.49
ADDITIVE 18............2..................0.9095.............16.371...........1.94
910..........100.................................... 844.5545........100.00
NOTE GALLONS OR LITERS DOESNT MATTER as it is just a unit.
In you method are you using volume or weight as the percentage ?
I have read companies using 50/50 blend castor / synthetic
The 30% formula actually is 36.49% by weight
LITERS % BY VOLUME S.G KGS % BY WEIGHT
METHANOL 455..........50................0.7955.............361.9525.......42.86
CASTOR 164..........18................0.9635.............158.014.........18.71
NITRO 273...........30................1.129...............308.217.........36.49
ADDITIVE 18............2..................0.9095.............16.371...........1.94
910..........100.................................... 844.5545........100.00
NOTE GALLONS OR LITERS DOESNT MATTER as it is just a unit.
In you method are you using volume or weight as the percentage ?
I have read companies using 50/50 blend castor / synthetic
MANDALAY- Moderate Poster
- Posts : 16
Join date : 2024-08-09
Re: COX FUEL ?????
Thanks for each component, quantifying the equivalent weight for the historic Cox volumes, @MANDALAY.
My on the matter. Matter of opinion, but I'thinking that for a manufacturer with automated equipment may have had an easier time basing his amounts on weight rather than volume. This just conjecture. I've never seen such equipment in person, so others who may be more intimate may be able to contribute more accurate information.
Earlier in my career in aerospace modifying system software for load servo controlling and data acquisition on aircraft structural airframe testing, then later on implementing building automation systems on energy systems (HVAC) on facilities, am familiar with flow, weight, distance, force and strain measurement under computer control.
Here, I modified a gallon of Morgans Wildcat 15% nitro fuel for use with my C/L cross scavenged engines (Testors McCoy .35 Red Head, etc.) which was also good fuel for running my Cox half-A reedies, OK Cubs, Testor/Wen-Macs, etc.
The 25% oil mix is max recommended for Coxes because of its small fuel metering passages. I think it was Peter Chinn who commented that in one of his engine articles archived on Spectre Flight Model Engine Tests. There are a few enthusiasts that recommend none other than 29% all Castor fuel for the legacy engines, particularly old Fox Stunt .35's. Accordingly, such fuel would not be good for Coxes. (There seems to be as much controversy over oils in model airplane fuels as there are with motorcycles oils in discussion groups.)
https://web.archive.org/web/20081008144111/http://www.spagthorpe.com/maintenance/synthetic.html
My Norvel .061 Big Mig ran, but was a little fickle on the 25% oil mix, harder to get a good consistent run. I guess the fuel metering passages is what made it baulk. It is Schneurle and my guess is uses slightly smaller fuel passages.
Being a sport flyer versus competition, I never had to have cutting edge, so if I had a good flight, it was good enough for me.
My on the matter. Matter of opinion, but I'thinking that for a manufacturer with automated equipment may have had an easier time basing his amounts on weight rather than volume. This just conjecture. I've never seen such equipment in person, so others who may be more intimate may be able to contribute more accurate information.
Earlier in my career in aerospace modifying system software for load servo controlling and data acquisition on aircraft structural airframe testing, then later on implementing building automation systems on energy systems (HVAC) on facilities, am familiar with flow, weight, distance, force and strain measurement under computer control.
Here, I modified a gallon of Morgans Wildcat 15% nitro fuel for use with my C/L cross scavenged engines (Testors McCoy .35 Red Head, etc.) which was also good fuel for running my Cox half-A reedies, OK Cubs, Testor/Wen-Macs, etc.
The 25% oil mix is max recommended for Coxes because of its small fuel metering passages. I think it was Peter Chinn who commented that in one of his engine articles archived on Spectre Flight Model Engine Tests. There are a few enthusiasts that recommend none other than 29% all Castor fuel for the legacy engines, particularly old Fox Stunt .35's. Accordingly, such fuel would not be good for Coxes. (There seems to be as much controversy over oils in model airplane fuels as there are with motorcycles oils in discussion groups.)
https://web.archive.org/web/20081008144111/http://www.spagthorpe.com/maintenance/synthetic.html
- Spagthorpe Maintenance Bulletins - The Dangers of Synthetic Motor Oil:
- Beware of synthetic oil! It can do terrible things to you and your beloved motorcycle. It will not only leak out of your engine faster than you can put it in, but it will also cause your oil filter to clog and implode, dumping debris and dirt into your lubrication system. It also will make every part of your bike permanently slippery because of its linear molecular chain dispersion action. Then it will leak onto your kickstand causing it to retract automatically, dropping your bike on the ground! But that’s not all...
Synthetic oil will round off your gears and spin your bearings. It will also splatter onto your seat causing your girlfriend to fall off in the apex of a turn and she'll never ride with you again. Synthetic oil coats your sight window and your timing window with a whitish pro-emulsification additive that is both non-removable and highly corrosive. Synthetic oil will completely leak onto the ground overnight and your dog will drink it and die.
Synthetic oil will wear out your tires and make your battery leak. It will give you the desperate need to urinate after you put your full leathers on and then jam your zippers shut. It will contaminate your gasoline causing your bike to stall on railroad tracks and accelerate uncontrollably near police cars. It will make it rain during rallies and on weekends. It will lubricate four timing belts causing them to jump teeth and break your valves to bits. Synthetic oil chemically weakens desmodromic valves and causes the clearances to change every six miles. Then it melts the black soles of your riding boots night before you walk across your new carpeting.
While riding past groups of attractive women it will cause both of your handlebar grips to slip off at the same time so you smash your windscreen with the bridge of your nose. It also causes your swingarm to crack, your studs to break, and your rotors to warp, and then it voids your warranty by changing your odometer reading to 55,555. It also dries out your wetclutch and wets your dryclutch. It makes your clutch slave cylinder seal fail in the heaviest traffic on the hottest day of the year while putting an angry wasp in your helmet for good measure.
Synthetic oil hides your 13mm socket and puts superglue on your earplugs. Synthetic oil will scratch your faceshield and make your gloves shrink two sizes night before trackday. Synthetic oil stole your neutral and sold it to the Chinese for £1.25. Synthetic oil will make you grow a tail. Synthetic oil will write long crazy e-mails to your Internet friends and then sign your name at the bottom!
Gleaned from numerous Internet sources.
www.spagthorpe.com
My Norvel .061 Big Mig ran, but was a little fickle on the 25% oil mix, harder to get a good consistent run. I guess the fuel metering passages is what made it baulk. It is Schneurle and my guess is uses slightly smaller fuel passages.
Being a sport flyer versus competition, I never had to have cutting edge, so if I had a good flight, it was good enough for me.
GallopingGhostler- Top Poster
-
Posts : 5619
Join date : 2013-07-14
Age : 70
Location : Clovis NM or NFL KC Chiefs
Re: COX FUEL ?????
Most of my fuel is 50/50. Sig Champion was my fuel choice for over 20 years. Sig used Klotz in a 50/50 blend 10% castor/ 10% klotz. I also run full Klotz synthetic and I do it in vintage engines despite the naysayers indicating it will ruin engines. I've never ruined a engine running full synthetic fuel which included the purposeful intention of trying to destroy a Cox engine. I use nothing but Klotz products and never tried any other manufacturer of oil. Most of the time when I mix my Cox fuel, I use KL-100 castor/synth blend of Klotz. When I run out of this, I mix Klotz Benol and full synthetic Techniplate.
This is where things can get problematic, Klotz had to putz around with their product names. Klotz in the past offered KL-100, KL-200. Now its a mixture of whatever names sounds pleasing. They have original Techniplate, Super Techniplate and a myriad of others. One was full synthetic, the other being 80% synthetic with a 20% mix of castor. You have to read the description. My reasoning for using Klotz products are due to the way they mix with alcohol. I've experienced problems in trying to up the oil content of pre-mixed fuels. I've seen the oil separate and also float on top like vinegar and oil salad dressing.
I no longer doctor any fuel for a one very main reason which I mentioned above. The other is that companies like Morgan fuels WILL NOT disclose how they mix nor will they offer true contents. I've gone back and forth with them over the years on e-mails and the same answer always is in the end that the ingredients and contents used are trade properties which they will not disclose. I buy my stunt fuel and I've been mixing all other blends for a few years. The most difficult to obtain is the nitro which is over $100 a gallon delivered to my door. My main supplier which I used is no longer selling small quantities of nitro which is a bit disturbing. They will sell 5 gallons vs 1 gallon. For most, this is out of reach due to cost and or necessity to use it all.
The last speed shop of my area closed in the fall of 2022. Just prior to it's closing, I was purchasing methanol for under $5 a gallon. Now that gallon is over $20. I inquired about purchasing nitro which they wouldn't sell me at the time. If I didn't have a vehicle for it to go immediately into, they were not by law allowed to offer me nitro as a raw product. I could buy nitro which was preblended with alcohol which is VP's 50-50. This product is still available and it's also a more economical approach to making fuel. 5 gallons is under $200. This will require a bit more math but certainly worth the effort. My son and I use approx 7-8 gallons of stunt fuel in one year. VP Powermaster fuel is what I normally purchased which was the situation up to last year. The price skyrocketed so high it was not practical. I used to pay $24 for a gallon which is now $54 which doesn't include shipping. I typically buy 6 gallon cases.
This is where things can get problematic, Klotz had to putz around with their product names. Klotz in the past offered KL-100, KL-200. Now its a mixture of whatever names sounds pleasing. They have original Techniplate, Super Techniplate and a myriad of others. One was full synthetic, the other being 80% synthetic with a 20% mix of castor. You have to read the description. My reasoning for using Klotz products are due to the way they mix with alcohol. I've experienced problems in trying to up the oil content of pre-mixed fuels. I've seen the oil separate and also float on top like vinegar and oil salad dressing.
I no longer doctor any fuel for a one very main reason which I mentioned above. The other is that companies like Morgan fuels WILL NOT disclose how they mix nor will they offer true contents. I've gone back and forth with them over the years on e-mails and the same answer always is in the end that the ingredients and contents used are trade properties which they will not disclose. I buy my stunt fuel and I've been mixing all other blends for a few years. The most difficult to obtain is the nitro which is over $100 a gallon delivered to my door. My main supplier which I used is no longer selling small quantities of nitro which is a bit disturbing. They will sell 5 gallons vs 1 gallon. For most, this is out of reach due to cost and or necessity to use it all.
The last speed shop of my area closed in the fall of 2022. Just prior to it's closing, I was purchasing methanol for under $5 a gallon. Now that gallon is over $20. I inquired about purchasing nitro which they wouldn't sell me at the time. If I didn't have a vehicle for it to go immediately into, they were not by law allowed to offer me nitro as a raw product. I could buy nitro which was preblended with alcohol which is VP's 50-50. This product is still available and it's also a more economical approach to making fuel. 5 gallons is under $200. This will require a bit more math but certainly worth the effort. My son and I use approx 7-8 gallons of stunt fuel in one year. VP Powermaster fuel is what I normally purchased which was the situation up to last year. The price skyrocketed so high it was not practical. I used to pay $24 for a gallon which is now $54 which doesn't include shipping. I typically buy 6 gallon cases.
Ken Cook- Top Poster
- Posts : 5609
Join date : 2012-03-28
Location : pennsylvania
Re: COX FUEL ?????
Sig's web site claims they have 25% Champion available again - but no 30% yet.
it was my fave for long time
https://sigmfg.com/collections/fuel/products/sig-champion-fuel
I have been buying Brodak 1/2A lately
https://brodak.com/fuel/fuel/fuel-qt-15-nitro-11-5-castor-11-5-synthetic-2.html
because its easy - log on to web page, buy, pay, receive in mail
All the speed shops in San Jose have closed or no longer sell fuel.
the 3 gas stations that USED to sell race gas at the pump have converted those tanks to Diesel
ordering VP is $$$$ in California
so no more mixing. I get it, the future is coming, and it has no gas for no body
it was my fave for long time
https://sigmfg.com/collections/fuel/products/sig-champion-fuel
I have been buying Brodak 1/2A lately
https://brodak.com/fuel/fuel/fuel-qt-15-nitro-11-5-castor-11-5-synthetic-2.html
because its easy - log on to web page, buy, pay, receive in mail
All the speed shops in San Jose have closed or no longer sell fuel.
the 3 gas stations that USED to sell race gas at the pump have converted those tanks to Diesel
ordering VP is $$$$ in California
so no more mixing. I get it, the future is coming, and it has no gas for no body
cstatman- Platinum Member
-
Posts : 562
Join date : 2021-02-17
Age : 60
Location : San Jose, CA
Re: COX FUEL ?????
Companies like Morgan fuels WILL NOT disclose how they mix nor will they offer true contents. I've gone back and forth with them over the years on e-mails and the same answer always is in the end that the ingredients and contents used are trade properties which they will not disclose.
Which is pure BS, as any competent outfit can analyze the exact content.
To add fuel to the flames (pun intended), here is a link to our fuel calculator, for those buying fuel with synthetic oil only and wishing to add castor oil:
https://coxengines.ca/public/files/castor.xls
As well as a link to our fuel guide:
https://coxengines.ca/public/files/FG.pdf
Which is pure BS, as any competent outfit can analyze the exact content.
To add fuel to the flames (pun intended), here is a link to our fuel calculator, for those buying fuel with synthetic oil only and wishing to add castor oil:
https://coxengines.ca/public/files/castor.xls
As well as a link to our fuel guide:
https://coxengines.ca/public/files/FG.pdf
My fuel for Bee's, Dee''s, Widows, Thimble Drome's Sure Starts, service, etc...
I have an eclectic collection of engines that I have been bench running and flying since early this year. I have settled in on a mix of 100 ml of VP pro car 30%/ w/ 9% oil with 10 ml of Green Health pure caster oil. Both can be easily had in the USA. So far nothing has broke or seized and my starts and running have been consistant. Flushing fuel tanks and lines with denatured alcohol and application of after run oil I think contributes too.
1975 control line guy- Moderate Poster
- Posts : 12
Join date : 2024-08-20
Location : Overland Park KS
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