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Post  getback Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:52 pm

i just built with the sigment that was suggested earlier and it was working well till i got to the last thing to glue was the fin/rudder assy. i put a thin coat on stuck it pined it let set for a while but didn't set up. took out the pins then put another coat on the outside conn. wood to the fuse and next thing i know the rudder was laid over and the glue was like rubber???? Pulled the thing off and cleaned up the mess reglued with sigment it took till the next day to be some what firm... but i dont think it still ever set the way it would have with just one coat // I find it wants to set up pretty Quick right out the tube and that it really good most the time!! If i am going to order next time think ill go for some ambroid and let the fume OUT!! Very Happy Eric Very Happy Retrying History
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Post  roddie Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:23 pm

getback wrote:i just built with the sigment that was suggested earlier and it was working well till i got to the last thing to glue was the fin/rudder assy. i put a thin coat on stuck it pined it let set for a while but didn't set up. took out the pins  then put another coat on the outside conn. wood to the fuse and next thing i know the rudder was laid over and the glue was like rubber????  Pulled the thing off and cleaned up the mess reglued with sigment it took till the next day to be some what firm... but i dont think it still ever set the way it would have with just one coat // I find it wants to set up pretty Quick right out the tube  and that it really good most the time!! If i am going to order next time think ill go for some ambroid and let the fume OUT!! Very Happy Eric Very Happy Retrying History

Hey Eric.. I've never used Sigment.. but I will offer some advice on how I joined the fin/rudder to my Rare-Bear tail... and there "ain't no way" it's gonna' break where I glued it. It takes a steady hand.. but I "pinned" the fin/rudder assy. into the fuse using round toothpicks anchored with thin CA. I cut the toothpick ends to about 3/4" long.. leaving the "points" on one end.  and used a pin-vise along with a dubro hinge-slotting tool to center the holes on the bottom edge of the fin/rudder. The tool comes with a drill centering guide.. and is very handy for this. Insert approx. 3/8" of the cut (blunt) end of the toothpick(s) into the holes you drill.. with the toothpick's "points" protruding. The points can then be "stuck" slightly into the tail section to give you reference-marks on where to drill the holes to accept the pins. If you have a profile fuse.. you can guage the drill-angle by holding the fin/rudder (with pins installed) against the side of the fuse and trace the outline of the pins with a pencil.

Here's a pic for an idea.

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Post  Cribbs74 Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:40 pm

That's the way I do it. It's pretty strong, but it won't hold up to a full bore inverted pancake.

Eric. Any chance your fuel proofing was still off gassing? You do know that Sig-Ment needs to be applied to both mating surfaces and left to dry for a minute or so before re-gluing and attached right?

Usually it works well. How old is the tube?

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Post  getback Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:42 am

Roddie i have used this in repairs , also this fuse is hollow 1/8" sheet .... Ron the tube is only 9 months old just opened it , no i did not let it pre-set before attaching but had not done that before, had not been doped or sealed yet. It seemed that the second glueing loosened the first glueing before it had set ??//// That was pretty good inverted pancake took me a couple minutes to get that lol! mine was usually nose in first DAMMIT! Thanks guys i will try to remember to coat both sides then stick them together Tired w/ Coffee Read Eric Very Happy
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Post  roddie Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:03 am

Cribbs74 wrote:That's the way I do it. It's pretty strong, but it won't hold up to a full bore inverted pancake.

Eric. Any chance your fuel proofing was still off gassing? You do know that Sig-Ment needs to be applied to both mating surfaces and left to dry for a minute or so before re-gluing and attached right?

Usually it works well. How old is the tube?


Ambroid should be applied (pre-glued) in this manner as well. I don't use cements much anymore. I like CA's (thin/thick) and slow-setting epoxies.

Ron.. aren't the "tail-feathers" the part of the model that usually survives in the event of a bad ground-strike.. whether inverted or not?
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Post  Cribbs74 Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:32 pm

Depends on the angle.

If it noses in or slightly noses in the rear of the fuselage will snap of entirely, taking the stab, rudder and elevator with it. Inverted usually takes the rudder clean off. Along with the canopy. A flat belly pancake can remove gear and snap the leading edge. Sometimes the control rod being thrown forward will remove the feathers.

Think speed and angle, anything that can go forward, up or down, will and with a vengance.

I am an expert at post crash investigation. Wink
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Post  akjgardner Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:59 pm

I picked a couple of tubes of sigment up the other day at a swap meet. I only have one tube of ambroid left. Just got done glueing up the wings for a Guillows Spitfire with the sigment. I was plesently surprised
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Post  getback Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:23 pm

Mean old thread LOL I am going to look for some ambroid at the swap coming up will keep U in mine , but I dought it these country boys like the stuff too This Site Rocks! The sigment was fast like the ambroid and I don't know what happened but I am wiery not ((((( need to get back in there and ck. it out . Eric Huh...
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Post  ARUP Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:37 pm

Don't forget DUCO! Joe Topper of www.Proctor-enterprises.com recommends it for the fuselage bracing of his Antic models. He also recommends it for the rest of the fleet as well. I like using it if Ambroid not to be had. Sigment works well but dries a little harder than the previous two cements.
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Post  Oldenginerod Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:39 pm

Don't know for sure, but I have a sneaking suspicion that this is maybe the same as Ambroid???
Pacific Balsa Cement (Link)
I've been using it for years.  Still manufactured and readily available in Australia.   Don't know if it can ship overseas.
Rod.
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Post  Ken Cook Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:59 pm

Ambroid has been non existent in these parts for about 2 years. I love the stuff actually. It sands beautifully which you don't get with CA. I detest CA and I rarely use it. I hate the stuff personally. One thing I really enjoyed about Ambroid was it's ability to glue center sheeting on. I would liberally apply to the ribs and set the sheet into the cement. Remove the sheet and set aside to dry. The glue shrinks as it dries. This curls the sheeting in the direction of the ribs. Yellow glues do just the opposite. I don't find CA to work well here due to no work time even using slow. Ken
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Post  Oldenginerod Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:49 am

The Pacific Balsa glue has the same effect. Smells nice sorta like dope. Shrinks as it dries. I actually used to attach all my tissue with it rather than dope. (Didn't know any different.) Fuel proof, dries fast & clear and sands well. There were two grades back in the day when Aeroflyte used to make it. C17 was the regular and C23 was high strength. Looks like C23 is all you can get now. Pacific balsa took over the rights to Aeroflyte's products. Has even started to reproduce a couple of kits.
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Post  rsv1cox Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:42 am

Interesting and informative topic. After all it's the stuff that holds our models together...mostly until they meet an immovable object at speed. Smile

"Sig-ment"- nice play on words SIG. I have never used it, but many years ago all my models went together using Ambriod, then I couldn't find it and went to CA's. First bottle was the expensive stuff at the LHS, about nine bucks. That ran out and I went to the small tube super glues four ea. @ $1.99 at Walmart. Didn't like them at all.

Then someone here mentioned Elmers. I didn't have any, but I did have a couple of varities of Tite-bond wood glue (standard and water resistant). And, hey, this stuff works great. Sets up fast, strong, easy to apply, inexpensive, and it sands better than CA's or epoxy. Both wings on my Aircrate went together using it, the only other glue used in the rebuild was some epoxy to fasten the wing weights.

Sig-ment and Ambroid - Page 2 Strutz15

Sig-ment and Ambroid - Page 2 Cement10

What's the best glue. The one that works best for you.



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Post  ian1954 Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:58 am

I assume that ambroid and sigcement are equivalent to what we know as Humbrol Balsa cement. It has a wonderful smell and was the only glue to use prior to the advent of the specialist CAs.

I use CAs more and more now - I find them useful for tacking parts together to check fits and for hardening balsa edges. I don't use balsa cement any more - I would probably start glue sniffing if I did!

However, I have had many catastrophes with CAs - including burning my fingers!

This product in the UK makes a good CA alternative. Superphatic!!!

https://www.deluxematerials.co.uk/gb/search?controller=search&orderby=position&orderway=desc&search_query=super+phatic&submit_search=

Now I have a yearning to sniff balsa cement! No!

I have never used balsa cement as tissue paste. Not sure what shop bought tissue paste is made of but I knew a chap that used to make it with flour, white sugar and a few drops of antiseptic liquid to stop it going mouldy.

For the antiseptic, he used Dettol or white iodine. He once used TCP -NOT RECOMMENDED- this stuff stinks and has a half life of 30 years. You don't need a sniffer dog to track anyone who has dabbed some of this on.
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Post  roddie Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:00 pm

Ambroid has an interesting history.. and it wasn't originally formulated to be a model cement at all. It was used to repair the old canvas-type canoes!

Ambroid history

It used to be made in Taunton, Massachusetts.. about 25 mi. away from where I live. Apparently the company relocated North to the New Hampshire/Vermont area.. and sold-out to a Canadian Company.

Check out the tube of "Ever-Fast".. I remember buying half a dozen tubes for 25 cents/ea. at a railroad salvage outlet back in the 90's. I wonder if Jose' ever used it?

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