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Post  RknRusty Sat May 12, 2012 8:28 pm

I'm glad to hear that about the Tee Dee. I'm really looking forward to flying this baby. But man, that covering sounds like a royal pain. I'll have to sleep on it and take a look at it in the morning. Paint's looking like a much simpler option.

Here are the specs:
Wing Span: 26 1/4"
Plane Length: 17 1/2"
Wing Area: 150 sq. in.
I don't know the weight yet

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Post  ZACATTACK Sat May 12, 2012 9:13 pm

Once you do it Rusty..You will never use Silk/Tissue/Dope/Thinner/Fuel Proofer/Paint etc. Again!!!! I screwed up 2 wing tips when learning for the first two times...Now..no problem. Monokote is my advise Rusty, 6' for $17.00!! You have covering to experiment with.Great stuff, fuel proof, looks awesome and you can make your own designs. Good Luck!
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Post  Ken Cook Sat May 12, 2012 10:11 pm

Rusty, have you ever used microballoons and epoxy for fillets? I get the sweetest looking fillets this way. Mixing the epoxy using microballoons cuts the weight of the material almost in half. It does weaken the epoxy but not to the extent that you couldn't consider it structural still. The more microballoons the easier it is to sand. I always scuff sand them so they take paint better as it opens the pores on the spheres within the microballoon material. The stuff is virtually self leveling. Using a popsicle stick as a radius tool it places a beautiful looking fillet on a wing to fuse joint and also stab to fuse. Excess can easily and carefully wiped off. After the iron covering is on especially around the motor mount area and also wing to fuse joint you can thin some epoxy with denatured alcohol. This can turn the epoxy water thin. I prefer it to be a bit thick making it easier to get it onto the model then I heat the epoxy a bit with a heat gun and runs perfectly around the joint. All excess can be cleaned neatly with a q-tip and alcohol. I know that some people after they used the material you pictured, they would sand it and clean the dust off and let thin ca run all over it wiping it off with a paper towel. This would not only seal that material but would make it more structural so that it wouldn't crack. Ken
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Post  RknRusty Sat May 12, 2012 10:26 pm

No, this is the first time I have been serious about making fillets. In the past, I have just used airplane glue and a finger. This plane is so nice, and so freakin expensive so far, I want to make it look professionally built. I think what I have will work fine. I'm not sure I should try to get the Monokote to stick to it, so I might have to paint those areas. I'll try it on some scrap first. I bought it and the HS is a 30 mile drive, so that's what I'm going with this time.

I did read about micro balloons and maybe next time I'll try it.

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Post  Ken Cook Sun May 13, 2012 10:07 am

Rusty, I know exactly what you mean by getting expensive. I see the three rolls of covering you have. I got to thinking as well. If memory serves me correctly, with the Brodak kit you also receive the plans, the build sheet, and also a outline of parts showing full size pieces like the fuse with the grain orientation. You just may be able to lay this sheet over your Monokote. Use a pin and prick through the paper into the Monokote. This would enable for you to make templates of the covering and get an accurate cutout for the wing. Just remember when making a template that you would need to mark one side on the face and the other side on the peel away backing so that you have a left and right. Not that you probably didn't know that. I always end up doing something like that then I'm like !@#$% !!! The nice thing is you can cover a lot planes with the leftover. Your plane looks real good. One thing is when covering a Flitestreak wingtip is to take your time. You have a complex compound curve that is really going to want to bunch up when your going from the wide section at the trailing edge to the very narrow at the leading edge. This isn't an easy task to do it without wrinkles. A heat gun can be your best friend. Your plane is looking real good and I'm sure your going to be quite impressed with it's performance. Ken
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Post  andrew Sun May 13, 2012 12:05 pm

RknRusty wrote:
I did read about micro balloons and maybe next time I'll try it.

Microballoons work pretty well and come in two flavors, glass and phenolic. They do take a little practice in applying, mostly in getting the micro/epoxy ratios where you want them --- too thin and your filler runs; too thick and the mix will not stick or smooth out well.

The glass balloons are a little less expensive, whitish in color, completely inert and can be a bit more difficult to sand down. Phenolic balloons are reddish in color, sand more easily, cost more and may dissolve when exposed to certain solvents, particularly styrene based.

Both need some care in handling --- they are so light that they easily become airborne, so a dust mask is recommended when mixing.

I buy from the aircraft supply houses --- cheaper than the hobby suppliers.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/bubbles.php --- 1 lb. of balloons is a lifetime supply.

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Post  ZACATTACK Sun May 13, 2012 1:09 pm

The only real time you need to use "poisonous" microballoons in the build is when you have Gaps...Other then that..there is no real need to use this product that I can see in Rusty's build. I mentioned poisonous because care and ventilation must be given & taken when using this product with epoxy, wear a dust mask when sanding. As far the grain of the wood goes, that Ken pointed out, he is correct about the grain, but you can cover all solid areas of balsa with silk-span/tissue prior to assembling the model or post assembly, this increases the balsa's strength tremendously, it also leaves a beautiful smooth finish where the grain of the wood becomes invisible to the admirer.This also has a dis advantage as well...weight, we hear this word all the time in control line model assembly, why not just go up an engine size when confronted with a weight issue,or a high performance version of the engine recommended. If you plan on Monokote Rusty, you very well might have to go into an .09 set-up with that plane...it's big for an .049 and by the look of your videos..you love a nimble fast plane that can do anything you ask of it..this might be a problem with the Baby Flight Streak, Monokoted, and .049 powered. There is a product by the name of Coverlite worth reasearching...basically the same procedure as Monokote but a lighter material... As far as expensive...well I'm kind of use to getting it on the chin in this hobby..I have expensive EDF Jets & Nitro Helicopters along with Control line stuff and when something goes wrong..its hundreds and hundreds of dollars...actually it makes me sick even to mention!!! Nice looking plane Rusty!
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Post  RknRusty Sun May 13, 2012 10:17 pm

Thanks for the replies, guys. Mothers' Day superseded most of my modeling today. I did get a little sanding and shaping done, as well as hooking up the control horn and gluing on the flaps. So it's about built with only sanding, shaping and coating. Oh yeah, the LG. Only one wheel, too close to the ground for prop clearance. I guess this is strictly a hand or stooge launcher. Or I could leave the LG off since I fly over grass.
(paragraph break to separate thoughts and prevent readers from skimming, getting confused, or developing a migraine head-ache)
I have decided to paint the fuse. That'll be ten times easier than Monokoting it. Hopefully the color pattern is outlined on the plans, that would be a huge help. I don't think it will be too heavy as the ARFs are the same balsa with shrink covering. If it is, I suppose I'll get an .09, though that might make it too fast for my 35' line requirements of my field.
(paragraph break to separate thoughts and prevent readers from skimming, getting confused, or developing a migraine head-ache)
So tomorrow night I'll finish sanding and making the fillets and try to start covering it Tuesday. It would be nice if I could fly it by next weekend. The paint might not be ready by then. I'm going to look at making a bladder compartment in the wing. If I do that, I may add some fuselage braces on each side of where the tank was meant to mount. It looks like a great place to snap it in half in a crash. But, then, I'm not going to ever crash this one. Laughing

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Post  ZACATTACK Sun May 13, 2012 10:29 pm

Havent built a Control Line for a while but what fillets are you talking about? Your model looks readt to cover Rusty>>
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Post  RknRusty Sun May 13, 2012 10:37 pm

Just some nice curves where the wing and stab join with the fuse. It should be a simple bead along the joint and smoothed with a damp finger. It will hide the uneven bumps in the glue and make it look nice. Strictly cosmetic with no functional purpose.

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Post  ZACATTACK Sun May 13, 2012 10:55 pm

Ever try painters tape and Epoxy Rusty?? Works a treat!! Just line up the tape to the width of your fillet desired and wait about 2 minutes with5 minute epoxy...peel off tape and Viola....nice edge...wait 24 hrs..sand....Works great...Use Iso Alcohol to clean up anything messy...
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Post  RknRusty Sun May 13, 2012 11:08 pm

ZACATTACK wrote:Ever try painters tape and Epoxy Rusty?? Works a treat!! Just line up the tape to the width of your fillet desired and wait about 2 minutes with5 minute epoxy...peel off tape and Viola....nice edge...wait 24 hrs..sand....Works great...Use Iso Alcohol to clean up anything messy...
That would probably work, just heavier than the Hobbylite compound I have. Masking it is a good idea. I am going to paint the engine mounting area with 60 minute epoxy glue for fuel proofing the wood. I;ll probably thin it a bit first so it soaks in.

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Post  ZACATTACK Sun May 13, 2012 11:48 pm

Rusty..there's no probably...it works great..believe me. Just purchased another Vintage Cox Motor Rusty..It going in next months engine of the month. My Mark Tee Dee .15 this month is getting beat up!! I just purchased a Conquest with the original Box..real beauty..I would post a Pic but that would be sabotaging your thread!
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Post  dinsdale Mon May 14, 2012 5:15 am

RknRusty wrote:... with 60 minute epoxy glue for fuel proofing the wood. I;ll probably thin it a bit first so it soaks in.
What do you use to thin epoxy glue? I'm assuming that it's 2 pack epoxy.
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Post  John Goddard Mon May 14, 2012 5:28 am

dinsdale wrote:
RknRusty wrote:... with 60 minute epoxy glue for fuel proofing the wood. I;ll probably thin it a bit first so it soaks in.
What do you use to thin epoxy glue? I'm assuming that it's 2 pack epoxy.

Any alcohol spirit.
Knock up the 2 pack then stir in your Scotch, Meths or whatever you've got to hand.
I usually use 15 min, 5 min is a little too fast, 30 min has too much time to drip.
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Post  Ken Cook Mon May 14, 2012 6:25 am

Hello Rusty, I can assure you that you'll have absolutely no problem using that Tee Dee. There would be absolutely no need for a .09. In fact I don't even think that would even work. Problems with a streak is the short nose. This is a real problem on the full size versions. Many guys mount their tanks inboard due to the short nose. You would need a bigger tank which is more weight. The reason for the short nose is due to how George designed the plane. Short nose, thick airfoil, long tail. These moments are legendary in the world of control line. A Tee Dee .09 weighs in about 2.78 ounces. The Tee Dee .049 weighs 1.48 ounces. That's almost another .049. Realizing the difference of weight would require that much more weight in the tail. Remember the fly swatter tail effect that broke mine off. This would happen even easier with more tail weight. The other problem with having a heavy nose is that it takes much more to rotate that mass. Turning would be greatly affected. WIngloading is relative to square inches and weight of model. You have more than enough horsepower to drive that model fast and hard. Looking at the Baby Ringmaster, it has the same sq inch wing as your streak. The problem with the Ringmaster airfoil is that it's thinner and has to fly faster. A slow flying RIngmaster slides through the turns and stalls. The Baby Ringmaster though flies just fine using a Black Widow . The .09 isn't really going to swing any more rpm's than a .049. What it can do is swing a bigger prop. A bigger prop is harder to turn as well. Once again you have more mass out there with a larger gyroscopic affect. A Tee Dee with a rubber ducky black 5 x 3 will give you the rpm's and enough drive to see that plane through the maneuvers. If in the event you feel the engine is loading through the maneuvers, trim a 1/8" of each tip and go fly again until you get it. I use Cox rubber ducky props on Clycons and Profi's and have turned them up to 34K rpm's. The prop trimming is a technique we use to hit the desired speed and rpm were looking for. We do balance after trimming. Ken
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Post  RknRusty Mon May 14, 2012 2:46 pm

Good for pointing out the specs on the .09, Ken. Though it should be obvious it's hard to imagine it's twice the metal of an .051. I remember staring in disbelief at the diminutive size of MFD's .020 Pee Wee. All I have ever seen in real life is .049s. So all of what you point out makes good sense. The little TD .051 is a demon, I expect it'll do the job nicely. I just got a new starter spring from Bernie, I hope I can cram it in there without filing and sanding. I want that nose as strong as possible.

It's been raining for 36 hours now and the humidity is 98%. I hate to open up the shop and expose my bare balsa skeleton to the dampness for fear of warping. I can't stay away though, so I'll probably slip in and shut the door while i work on it tonight. I need to go to Lowes and see if I can match some Rustoleum enamel to my Insignia Blue and Rocket Tube Red. I'll take a swatch of the two Monokotes with me, but I don't know if they can custom mix Rustoleum. I thought that was dark blue on the forward portion, but I finally found out it's black. It's okay, I like the dark Navy blue better anyway. It looks awesome with the flap extensions glued onto the wings, really sleek and raptor-like.

I'm going to use the Hobbylite compound I bought for the minor fillets I need. Maybe next time I'll use all the stuff y'all have recommended. No offense, I filed your ideas away for future reference.

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Post  Ken Cook Mon May 14, 2012 3:45 pm

Rusty, no offense taken. I've used that material you have and loved the sandability of it. I've had paint adhesion problems using straight epoxy for fillets when using dope. Switching to microballoons not only saves weight but gives the paint something to grip onto. It does take practice to allow it to lay correctly. I have taped them to get it straight but I was always left with a ridge. This material will not feather down. As I've learned through the years is to not apply several coats of clear dope to the fillets. This is especially true if using Sig Supecoat as it will form bubbles which don't begin to show their appearance until your in color then blisters form. Prior to coating I rough the fillets to open the spheres in the material and clean thoroughly with acetone. I use one very thinned brushed coat on the fillet prior to going to color. I wasn't aware of the toxicity of this material as Lew pointed out. I use the white powdery version. All in all when you really think of the toxicity of everything we use, I try not to dwell on it. However when spraying dope I certainly take the precautions. I've never had any paint related issues with that lite fillet material you have. Like I said many that I know have drizzled thin ca on it after it was sanded to seal it and make it hard as it can be soft. I've experienced cracking around radius's with that material but only on .35 size models. I certainly don't think a .049 is going to shake like a Fox.35. I've also never used Rustoleum as a finish. A fellow club member does this all the time and his models really turn out beautifully. He did say you get much better results when doing light misted coats. Funny that you mentioned that you weren't aware of the actual color. If you look at my plane in the picture, I painted it wrong. I had to laugh actually. I painted red where the black was supposed to be. I didn't notice it until a few days later when I wanted to put the wing decal on and was looking at the picture on the box. Ken
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Post  RknRusty Mon May 14, 2012 4:10 pm

I've been using Rustoleum since forever. I spray their gray automotive primer first and the first coat of color covers it completely. After painting I use Lustrekote(from Monokote) fuelproof clear gloss and have never had fuel penetrate it at all. They say the Rustoleum dark colors aren't as fuelproof, but the Lustrekote should take care of that. I lightly coat the decals with Lustrekote too. Put it on too quickly and they will bubble up.

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Post  Ken Cook Mon May 14, 2012 5:22 pm

Rusty , this is good to know. My father used Lusterkote one time and liked it. It just became hard to find around here. He didn't want to have to mail order. I recall the smell being more laquer like. I always thought Rustoleum was a enamel. I didn't think they were compatible. Seeing this is how you paint these models I want to give that a try. I really dislike dragging all my spray equipment out and cleaning it. A simple spray bomb would certainly make things easy. Thanks, Ken
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Post  ZACATTACK Mon May 14, 2012 5:44 pm

LustreCoat in my opinion is not the best paint out there but your trapped and lassoed after you buy the Monokote..that's the problem!! I've had some really bad things happen with LustreCoat but I won't go there. Sometimes I think paint runs are my fault but when it occurs over & over there's something wrong with the product. I had to say it!!
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Post  Ken Cook Mon May 14, 2012 7:53 pm

Rusty, while were on the subject of streaks, I've been doing a little something with all of my current builds. I've been making bladder compartments for the majority of my planes. My large streak that is pictured here has now been revamped and can hold 4oz's in the bladder compartment. I made the compartment using a flourescent light bulb protector tube. I was able to cut the ribs off in front of the spars then I was able to cut holes in them and assembled it all at the same time. I roughed the tube up which is why it appears white in color and used epoxy to hold it in. With this large compartment and all that fuel, I don't use tip weight in the outboard wing. I don't think I'm getting 5 minutes to a flight but it certainly is a wild ride at about 120 mph. Unfortunately, that engine has ripped the nose off of the plane more than once. The beams are doweled through the leading edge now. This design though can be introduced to 1/2A models as well. I was thinking small rocket tube about 3/4" diameter. This would also take glue well. I want to do this to Combat Kitten I built. The Kitten has a tank in the wing now. I feel that even if you build for a tank, this would give you the option of using both. Certainly something to think about. Ken

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Post  ZACATTACK Mon May 14, 2012 8:22 pm

Looks great until I seen that Flyers Logo...That wrecked the pictures real fast!!! Laughing Laughing
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Post  Ken Cook Mon May 14, 2012 8:26 pm

That's ok Lew, I'm not a sports fan and this plane was given to me. I believe the logo is covering a hole. Ken
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Post  dinsdale Mon May 14, 2012 8:53 pm

shawn cook wrote:I always thought Rustoleum was a enamel.
I thought that Rustoleum was a single pack epoxy. Does anyone know for sure?
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