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Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

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Help! Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  tru168 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:23 am

Hi ,

Just received an used pre-revlite 049 , the bid ended USD 46. Looks clean, with good compression.
I fuel it with Sig 15% and i have problem to start it.

I open needle arond 2 and a half turn, several flips and it starts a while, about a second or two and stop. Adjust the needle one turn open or closed, its behave the same, just one second or two and stop.

Suspect the glow button , I don't have new one, just fix a TD glow head on it, and I can feel its lower compression than glow button. A few flips it starts for a while , less than a second and stop.

Check with gasket , no leak.

Anyone having same problem with older AME ? Any idea what happened ?
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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  fit90 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:15 am

The AME's have very poor fuel draw. Try elevating your fuel tank slightly above the needle valve and keep the tank close to the engine. Good Luck!
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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  RknRusty on Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:37 am

That's right. The AMEs are intended to run on pressure. If you still have trouble bench running it with the higher fuel tank, you could choke the venturi down with a piece of plastic or metal tube. Or even covering it with a few layers of women's stocking material might work.

If you want to use a pressure bladder and need help, PM me or Fit90 and we can show you a quick and simple way to set it up. I made two videos about making and running bladders, here:
https://www.coxengineforum.com/t3317-pressure-bladder-how-to-videos-parts-one-and-two

The first video about making them is over complicated and looks like more trouble than it really is. We can show you some quick and easy shortcuts. But the second video on running the engine is pretty straight forward and will help you crank and run it. You'll like this method once you try it.
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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  tru168 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:18 am

Hi fit90 and Rusty,

Thanks for the tips. I removed the fuel supply and a couple drops of fuel into carb and it starts happily.
Sure it must be the fuel feeding problem.
Its a throttle version, and I think this little AME might not suit my recent trainer project. I might looking for Big Mig, or just try to use Cox reedie.
Cox might under power,( the trainer wing loading 11 oz/ sqft. and weight 550gm.) The kit mentioned specially designed for Cox sure start, but I have 4 new sure start that turns only 11500rpm using 6X3 , not enough power for this kit.

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Help! Norvel sale

Post  fredvon4 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:46 am

Go to the Norvel web site and create an account. Then log into the account and shop

At check out add Independence to the promotion code area for a 10% discount

I have an .049 Aero a .061 AME and a .061 Big Mig ---all good runners

If you can get the (fairly expensive) glass props for 1/2a they really wake these engines up

Unfortunately they are between $4.79 to $7.95 each depending on source

http://www.nvengines.com/

http://aerohobby.ca/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=177
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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  tru168 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:14 am

fredvon4 wrote:Go to the Norvel web site and create an account. Then log into the account and shop

At check out add Independence to the promotion code area for a 10% discount

I have an .049 Aero a .061 AME and a .061 Big Mig ---all good runners

If you can get the (fairly expensive) glass props for 1/2a they really wake these engines up

Unfortunately they are between $4.79 to $7.95 each depending on source

http://www.nvengines.com/

http://aerohobby.ca/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=177


Hi,


Thanks for your help on the NV link. I will order one for the trainer , to teach kids how to fly RC plane.
1/2A rc engine are hard to find recently, I've seen AP Wasp 061 on ebay a year ago, from Hong Kong, selling at USD48 free shipping but can't see any now.





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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  andrew on Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:33 am

tru168 wrote:
I've seen AP Wasp 061 on ebay a year ago, from Hong Kong, selling at USD48 free shipping but can't see any now.

The Wasp is a Chinese knock-off of the NORVEL.  Avoid these if you can --- some can be made to run, but tend to wear out quickly.  Most are simply products of poor Chinese quality control and do not run well at all.

eBay continues to have NORVELs show up, many as NIB.  The pricing may be better than on the NV site.
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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  Ken Cook on Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:46 pm

I recently just did something with my AME. The venturi is epoxied into some of these in which mine was. I took a broken APC prop and used the hub of the prop. I glued the prop hub to a stick of bass wood. I then proceeded to cut the hub on a band saw. I cut it to the shape of the casting of the intake. I used the prop hole as a guide and I kept that hole directly in the center of the casting. The fit was quite impressive as I sanded it to the final shape using 240 grit paper which removes very little material allowing for an accurate fit. I then glued this piece into the casting using JB weld. After the JB weld cured I flattened it with a file and used a 1/4-32 tap through the prop hole. I then use a Cox TD venturi needle valve assembly. This works incredibly well if you use the stock setup or a Kustom Kraftmanship needle. Ken
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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  tru168 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:23 pm

Hi,

Thanks for the info. Seems like the AME engine having bad carb problem, I test run it and till now , I can't get it running properly. either too lean, or flooded when I move the throttle arm.
I don't have any suitable carb. to modify , I'm still looking for a suitable solution, I don't want to waste this AME engine. Strange that the needle actually open up only one turn to get it run a little bit more longer, 5 to 6 second and stop, more than one turn it will be too rich and flooded easily.
I noticed that the back cover for crank case seems missing a rubber ring gasket, but can't see any leak. Don't know if this will be one of the reason that I'm having hard-to-tune problem .
This is my second AME engine actually. My first one having the same problem , and I did mentioned it in rcuniverse forum about two years ago, with some help from forumers , it starts and I only get 14,000 rpm on 6x3 prop, and throttle down to about 6500 rpm, when my plane nose up, the little engine cut again. very hard to tune,and i gave up the little engine and gave it to one of my club member.

I think I will purchase a big mig 061 for easier operation, but will keep tweaking this poor little AME and see how good it can be . I flew one Norvel 074 in my sig piper cherokee ,and its easy to operate.



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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  Ken Cook on Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:53 am

The term AME is used nowadays to describe the porting of the cylinder while years back it was the company name. The AME Zeus is an excellent little engine for what it's designed for. The fuel feed issue isn't a problem assuming you using the correct fuel delivery. These engines run excellent on backplate pressure. The trick is to use the smallest hole possible in the backplate. Better yet, using bladder works even far superior. The stock needle valve assembly works well on backplate pressure while it won't work correctly using bladder pressure. Ken
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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  andrew on Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:59 am

Here's a short explanation of how AME initially came about, got applied to the NORVELs and later, as Ken noted, was used to differentiate between the higher performance 3 port engines and the 5 port Big Mig.

The Russian Cyrillic letters appeared on the earlier 1 piece crankcases. These translated roughly to AMD and stood for Aviation Model Engine (авиации модельный двигатель). The letters were later replaced with the English displacements for .049 and .061. Both the AME and BigMig looked outwardly the same, so checking the ports is the only means of determining which one you have.

NORVEL (Northern Velocity) originally got into the import business to supply high performance controlline engines and the English equivalent AME was applied. When they later got into production of the BigMig, the designation AME was retained to differentiate between the high performance engine and the kinder, gentler BigMig.

The Cyrillic Д --- pronounced like the "d" in "dog" (equivalent to the English letter "d") is often mistaken for a triangle or the letter A on the early engines.
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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  fredvon4 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:23 pm

I was having a tough time getting one of mine to run on bladder after I did the adapter for a Cox fine thread NVA (5/32 brass tube sleeve)

As I was fussing with it trying different heads (started with plain cox low compression head and three shims) I noticed that when I took off the head the cylinder rotated slightly and then back when I tightened the head. Initially I tried to tighten all four screws... Like most I noticed they do not turn and the smallish Allen key was in danger of rounding or worse yet breaking the screw. Into the shop and a bit of heat gun time and the screws loosened. I found the engine was assembles with out the paper gasket. While open I noticed no back plate seal. I used one of the two base gaskets I got when I bought all three engines. for the back plate I set a thin line of Permatex anaerobic gasket maker.

Engine fired and needled just fine once all the leaks were plugged. I checked the .061 Big Mig and it was assembled correctly but the third engine a .061 AME also was missing the cylinder base gasket.

I dropped NVengines a note , they apologized, and with my next order they sent extra gaskets and four cylinder hold down screws. I have run all three engines in the 21,000 to 25,000 rpm range with APC C-2 5.5x2.5 (140x64mm)

The very few combat props I got from a close friend are 5x2.5 and the engines scream too fast for my el-cheapo tach to catch

I know a few folks who have the RC carbed versions of these engines and they seem to work well from what I hear and see at the field

My 1/2a Norvels were cheaper than many of my TD .051 so I am using them as my training engins

Later this year I will get a Dough Galbreth P-Zero .050, an Fora .049 and hopefully a Cyclon but those big buck engines are on hold until I gain some skill
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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  RknRusty on Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:20 pm

I'm glad to hear the NV engines run good. Not so glad they were missing parts. But after Balogh's bad experience with the new Big Mig and no compression, I was afraid the NVs might be junk. Norvels are the best replacement for TDs.

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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  tru168 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:49 pm

Thanks for sharing your experience about NV.
Hmmm..... Missing gasket.....that makes me a little worry if I plan to purchase a new NV.
I'll try to look for Norvel Big Mig NIB on ebay.

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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  andrew on Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:05 pm

If NV is selling the cover plate O-ring as NOS, you may want to check each carefully for cracks. The rubber used to manufacture these seals on the late model NORVELs was prone to hardening and cracking.
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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  tru168 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:27 pm

I checked mine , without back plate seal o ring too.
Try to apply silicone gasket maker and see if it perform better.

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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  RknRusty on Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:48 am

The only trouble I have had with the Big Migs is the venturi gasket leaking. I've tried silicone fuel line gaskets, but they have popped. Latex surgical tube works better if you can cut it just right and get it to pinch without squirting out. It also leaks around the screw head, so I made a tiny gasket for that. I finally got tired of screwing with it and JB Welded mine.

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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  Ken Cook on Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:12 am

The epoxy is what was essentially used from the beginning. If the part needs to be removed, heat will do it. I use very little JB weld. Placing the JB weld on the venturi about midway up the stack and insert. One thing you don't want to do is go too crazy with the JB weld. I have over a dozen here that have the case broken. Reason for this is due to midairs. The needle hanging out the side acts like a giant lever and will break the venturi out of the case on impact with another plane or terra firma. Just another reason for me to shorten my needles. It takes me a while but I finally get it. A bit of alcohol on a Q-tip will clean the JB weld immediately and smooth the surface revealing professional result. Using just enough JB weld will act like a sacrificial joint and break out clean just needing to be glued in again.

As for the o-ring on the backplate. It's not necessary and as long as the back of the case is flat the backplate will work just fine. The pros to using the o-ring is that the backplate will stay tight. If the case is properly flattened it will do that as well once snugged up. Many of the early variants didn't use the o-ring. If need be the local hardware store or plumbing supply will have a suitable o-ring if you feel the need for one. I use the same Permatex product that Fredvon sugested which is anerobic Permatex which is suitable for alcohol immersion. It's service removeable and works far superior to any product I ever used as far as gaskets on small engines. The formula is specifically designed for aluminum. Ken
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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  tru168 on Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:04 am

hi,

Just sealed the back cover with RTV gasket maker. not help much . you are right Ken, as long as its not leak , no o ring will work too.

The AME can't run without power supply to the original glow button , it stop immediately once I remove the glow clip. Feel much better with TD glow plug with 3 shim , but I only get 15,600 rpm with cox 6 X 3 prop, throttle down to 7,000 rpm. will try to add or delete some head shim. I don't mind if its RPM drop, just wish to throttle more smoothly.
Don't know if normal cox glow head will do better, will test it when I can, my neighbour complaint about the annoying noise today.


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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  tru168 on Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:27 am

Hmmm, Just tested standard cox glow head with 1 shim, it starts immediately, with real low idle speed on 6X3 . I didn't tach it yet, its midnight bow, and I just test the idle speed, not open up to max rpm. to prevent my neighbor complaint again.
will try to test it again tomorrow morning.

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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  Ken Cook on Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:50 pm

I'm the wrong person to make a suggestion on a R/C engine. I have no experience with the R/C carb. The Cox TD plugs can certainly impede performance and the standard plug is only going to result in even lower rpm's. What I feel would work the best for you may not be available to you which would be the Nelson Galrbreath setup with the hot plug. I have no idea as to what fuel your running and I can only add that my AME new or old really run better on high nitro compared to the Big Mig. I run bladder pressure on all of mine and one thing that indeed does happen when I try to run them rich is that the plug starts to cool off. This can happen if the oil content is too high as well. Ken
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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  tru168 on Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:33 pm

Hi Ken,

I'm using Sig fuel, 15% nitro.
Yes, I did put a Nelson Galrbreath head on it, and it perform well, I tached it and i got 19,600rpm , with APC 6X2, but throttle will be quite hard to get smooth transission.. With MA 6X3, its performance drop, harder to start, and It turns only around 15,000 rpm.
I measured the bore size and its around 11.15 mm, thats a .061, not .049 as previous owner described. Its old 3port cylinder that design for higher rpm than big mig.

Its weird, With standard cox glow head, the propeller kick hard and hit my finger everytime I flip it, my finger can't move fast enough to move away from the propeller. With Cox standard or TD head , the engine sound much louder, just like engine without muffler. For glow button head or Nelson Galrbreath head, the propeller will not act like the standard cox glow head,and sounds softer than cox glow head.


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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  Ken Cook on Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:29 am

I didn't see this earlier, but one thing I might mention is your prop size.The 6x3 is really quite large for this engine. These engines don't usually swing a 6" prop well. I've found this to be true with all of my AME ported engines. They really are much better performers with 5" and smaller props. Again, my experiences are solely based on control line use. I just don't know what the r/c crowd does or can do with these engines. I feel that others on here that have r/c experience would be able to contribute to assisting your engine run. Just for an example, I'm currently using a .061 Rev-lite AME with a Cox black 5x3 cut down to 4". The engine really comes alive vs using it stock. My engine is running on bladder pressure which isn't subjected to fuel related issues that a tank assembly has. The venturi on these engines typically require the higher rpm's to assist in fuel draw which is required when running suction.

Assuming the engine is well broken in, I found the need for one possibly two shims. Are these stock Norvel head gaskets? I found many different thickness shims and I've found the Norvel to be a few thousandth's thinner than the Cox head shims. As a general guideline, the Nelson combo when set up correctly yields 800-1000 rpm over the stock setup. Ken
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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  tru168 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:55 pm

Read quite a lot about AME recently, Ame don't like big heavy prop.

MA 6 X 3 - 15,100 rpm
Cox 5 X 3 rubber duckie, - 17,400 rpm.
APC 6 X 2 - 19,600 rpm. (easier needling)

When it running high RPM, I need to open a little more needle, and fuel draw will be more constant, but throttling still quite bad in transition. I've heard back cover with pressure tap, I need to order from NV to try out , just don't know how much improvement if I use one.
I think this AME seems most suitable for pylon racer, I can fly it full throttle most of the time, and throttle down or cut the engine for landing, It designed for racing, not for trainer plane.
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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

Post  RknRusty on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:04 pm

I was under the impression an AME would spin up around 30,000RPM. I have a stock Revlite Big Mig .061 that does 28,800 on an APC 5x2.5 prop. Haven't ever put it on a plane, but it's destined to fly when I fix my Refried Bean.

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Help! Re: Pre-revlite Norvel/ Ame 049 problem

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