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Rustoleum..the long term

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Rustoleum..the long term

Post  Cribbs74 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:05 pm

Guys,

I wanted to make you aware of some long term findings concerning Rustoleum finishes.

I have noticed lately that my Rustoleum finishes are starting to craze in places. I am waiting a good long time to cure before I apply TF clear over it to fuel proof. I can only surmise that perhaps Top Flite and Rustoleum are not fully compatible. On planes that I hand painted with Testors model paint and covered in TF the finishes seem to be just fine. I do fly my planes a lot and they get totally covered in oil and such, but receive a wipedown after a day of flying.

The worst places are under the fuel tank where the Clear coat has gone totally opaque due to constant contact with fuel.

All finishes are still fuel proof, but just not as pretty as they used to be. Maybe they need to be baked to cure like Jim does in his car?

Ron


Last edited by Cribbs74 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Rustoleum..the long term

Post  pkrankow on Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:29 pm

My neighbor has had Rustoleum sheet off of fiberglass cowls during storage. I suspect exhaust oil damage. Storage time was in excess of a year. De-oiling with suitable solvents, sanding and repainting corrected the situation.

I have noted short term softening of areas that experience prolonged fuel contact. I have also noted that Rustoleum color does not stick to celluloid glue (Testor's wood and metal cement) even with sanding. I have another airplane that has sandable grey primer over the Testor's with no apparent peeling.

Phil
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Re: Rustoleum..the long term

Post  RknRusty on Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:39 pm

I've had a hard time keeping the Lustrekote clear from crazing the Rustoleum color when applied to the past couple of models, but haven't noticed age related crazing yet. Or maybe it's just the Red and Black that aren't as compatible, since those have been my main colors since the Baby Streak build. But I only have one plane with a tank and it's not a year old yet. And I take off the tank and clean it after every expedition. The bladder planes never really get fuel on them, just exhaust. I'm wondering if the paint formulas have changed with the green movement. Some forums have discussed it ad-nauseum and no one can agree about it.

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Re: Rustoleum..the long term

Post  Cribbs74 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:21 pm

Funny you mentioned red and black as that is where I see the most crazing.
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Beware of Top Flite Lustrekote

Post  carddfann on Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:52 pm

Hi everyone,

I'm new here and looking to get back into some old skool Cox C/L for grins-n-giggles.
I'm having the same trouble as a lot of people when it comes to hi-nitro fuel proof paints. I was out of the hobby for many years and back in now. Back in the day when more people actually built, there were more choices for good fuel proof paint but not much anymore. I called Top Flite earlier today (actually Hobbico - seems they own everybody) and asked about their Lustrekote. This is straight from the source - it is only good up to 15%. I also asked about their RC car body paint under the name of DuraTrax RC body paint and they also said up to 15%. They said normally, people apply a white top coat (of the same paint) over the color paint to make the colors stand out more and all this paint is inside the car body. They normally don't get that much exposure to nitro in cars due to the air filters people use over the carb opening and the exhaust is outside the body. Also, people typically have to remove the body from the car for refueling so there just isn't much chance for a lot of nitro to get onto the paint. I was thinking that RC body paint would work since RC cars run on high nitro fuel. However, they don't run much risk of getting fuel on the paint as I thought. So bottom line, be wary of using Lustrecoat or RC car paint on 1/2a planes. If you think you found something, test it on some scrap before putting model.

Also, I had some mixed results with Lustrekote clear. I tried some Lustrekote gloss clear over testors model paint and the finish almost instantly crinkled and I gave the 24 hrs to cure. I can't say for sure if the base paint crinkled or the clear or both. I then tried some Lustrekote flat clear over the same Testors paint and it didn't. Go figure. Must be something in the clear.

I'm not to high on using dope Laughing , but it's probably one of the best options out there as far as hi-nitro fuel proof goes. However, it's time consuming, messy, and stinks. After researching, I found out about Nelson's paint and Klass Kote. People swear by them but they're expensive and epoxy paint isn't as convenient either. I remember a spray can epoxy system that mixes when shaken but they don't seem to make it anymore. After shaken and activated, you'd have to use what's in the can or throw it out because it will harden, but it was good.

So I don't know. I guess its back to old school dope and mix-it-yourself epoxy paint or try Rustoleum like eveybody else and no I'm interested in using iron-on. I've read mixed results about it. Seems like with ARF's these days, we've gone backwards when it comes to those of us who really like to build because inexpensive products we used to have aren't around anymore. Has anyone tried Rustoleum engine paint? Seems like it might be better than regular Rustoleum. Their website says its resistant to gas, oil, and solvents. I know gas is not glow fuel but every bit of resistance may help. If Rustoleum is used, I guess let it cure for 2 or 3 weeks and try not to spill raw fuel on it. If you do, wipe it off immediately and wipe off the plane after each flight and Rustoleum might be barely acceptable, especially if you don't fly that much. Thoughts on my rambling? I'm frustrated over this paint issue and I'm kind of venting here. Tired w/ Coffee Read
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Re: Rustoleum..the long term

Post  roddie on Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:09 pm

Ken Cook uses a finishing system that he has good results with.. running combat models. If he doesn't chime-in here.. try shooting him a PM.
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Re: Rustoleum..the long term

Post  Cribbs74 on Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:20 pm

Don't have a love affair with your models.

Sounds harsh, I know. The reality is if you want to have a long term model then you are going to have to spend a little money.

My advice, lame as it may be is finish it, click a pic. Fly the snot out of it and when it looks haggard, re-do it or retire it. This is assuming you don't fly it into the ground first.

I have seen long term paint jobs last, but money was spent on good product.

Ken Cook can fill you in on good products.

Ron
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Re: Rustoleum..the long term

Post  pkrankow on Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:11 pm

Dope can still be had. Brodak carries a good product. Aircraft Spruce carries for full scale airplanes. Supposedly the same product! Brodak is ready to brush though.

Rustoleum seems fine at 25% nitro. My 1 hour test involves wetting a paper towel, applying it to suitably aged paint (14 days), and allowing it to sit covered by a plastic sheet for 1 hour. Light rubbing determines the final results with color transfer acceptable as long as the coating is not disturbed. Every solid gloss non-metallic color I have tried passes with more or less color transfer.

Oil is quite damaging to Rustoleum though. A few months sitting with exhaust oil on the paint and the coating blisters and falls away...so clean the model. Windex works pretty good the day after. A wipe down with a dry rag is minimum.

Certain automotive rattle can touch up paints are supposed to handle 25% nitro, but I have not tested that route myself. There is also a spray automotive clear coat that is a 2-part product. It is expensive, but some feel is worth the effort, again I have not tried it.

Ron has a point. If you are still breaking models then don't go too crazy on the expensive finishes.

Phil
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Re: Rustoleum..the long term

Post  JPvelo on Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:28 pm

Cribbs74 wrote:

My advice, lame as it may be is finish it, click a pic. Fly the snot out of it and when it looks haggard, re-do it or retire it. This is assuming you don't fly it into the ground first.



Ron

Amen.

On my latest baby clown I brushed the sky blue rustoleum canopy with thinned epoxy to fuel proof it. The sky blue pretty much dissolves on contact with high nitro but this seems to be working. I don't know how feasible it would be to do an entire plane.
I used rustoleum painters touch on the mongoose I'm building and I'm not thrilled with it. We'll  see how it holds up after curing for two weeks.

Jim
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Re: Rustoleum..the long term

Post  Ken Cook on Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:53 am

Dope is not fuel proof at all. It will not stand up to 10% nitro on direct contact and repeated contact with 5% will mar it. Brodak is the least fuel proof and is very prone to wiping off when cleaning the model. Sig Lite Coat will stand up the best to the dopes available currently. It also requires a minimum of 4 coats of clear to do so. When running 1/2A fuels, high nitro will ruin a dope finish. I mentioned this before, KBS Diamon clear coat will solve your finish problem giving a very high quality finish and durability. Klass Kote is a 2 part catalyzed finish which yields excellent results. Both products can be sprayed but using a foam brush works very well. These finishes can stack up the weight so going easy is good choice. I've used them over dope and also spray can colors found in the automotive section, Dupli Color, VHT, etc.

    2 part auto clear works exceptionally well but again, heavy. Using reducer is in order. These products usually can be somewhat difficult to purchase in small quantities so knowing someone in the auto body business helps. The paint however requires special handling and can be quite toxic. Manufacturers have made 2 part urethane available in a spray can. One product is known as Spray Max 2K. You pop the plunger in the can and the catalyzing begins. This product needs to be used in it's entirety within a week or it hardens. This spray usually costs around $30 for a can. Any of the two part finishes needs to be handled with safety in mind. No spills, skin contact, etc.

I personally prefer the water based Nelson paint. The new owner is somewhat of a problem getting product out the door. Jerry Nelson was the original owner and was a real pleasure to deal with and would deliver promptly. The website is still up, this paint though is like water colors. It takes multiple coats and practice to use it. The paint is a bit pricy but withstands constant contact with high nitro when the crosslinker is used. No smell, disposal is like any latex paint, and water is used for clean up. It runs very easily though. It took me over a year to figure out how to use it. Once I figured out some techniques, I had some beautiful looking planes. White is required as a undercoater when brushing including black. Ken
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Re: Rustoleum..the long term

Post  carddfann on Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:49 pm

A lot of good advice here. Regarding dope and fuel proofness, I recall from a long time ago that the old Aerogloss dope was "hot fuel proof." I don't recall having any problems with it from my younger days. However, I don't think it's made anymore and I was thinking that all dopes are fuel proof. On Brodak's website, they claim their colored dope is fuel proof unless their quality is poor where some batches are and some aren't. Phil had an interesting comment about oil being hard on Rustoleum (regular type). I'm curious to try their engine paint that they say is oil resistant and resistant to solvents. It doesn't come in too many colors, but they do have a sort of light gray I need. I'll give it shot on some scrap wood and see what happens.

I'll look into Rustoleum first then look at the KBS Diamond. I wonder if one thin coat of KBS will do the trick so as to not add much weight? They say 2 thin coats are recommended and it can be thinned.
I noticed on the KBS website that they sell a sampler kit for only 20 bucks! It comes with KBS Klean and Diamond clear and can do up to 12 sq feet. That should be enough to do at least 2 or 3 little 1/2a models. Sounds like good stuff as long as I don't over do it with weight. It sounds like it can be applied over a lot of different kinds of paint which means a lot of color choices. Thanks Gentlemen!
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Re: Rustoleum..the long term

Post  RknRusty on Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:39 pm

carddfann, if you get that KBS sampler, please let us know how it works out, I'd like to try it too.
Rusty

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Re: Rustoleum..the long term

Post  carddfann on Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:52 pm

You bet.
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Re: Rustoleum..the long term

Post  Ken Cook on Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:25 am

Here's the link to KBS http://www.kbs-coatings.com/diamondfinish.html  . As for the price, right now it's just a few dollars more than dope. Sig over the past few years has been struggling. They've gone through many changes and a current new owner. I truly can't see their paint line being around for too many more years. Lacquer based paints are rapidly disappearing from the shelves. The reason for most of the problems currently associated with dope is the fact that almost every brand has changed their formulations through the years to meet certain requirements. You can still purchase dopes from Aircraft Finish, Randolph, and Certified finishes. These 3 manufacturers make and have made all the dopes modelers have used for years. They're used for commercial aircraft and are still used today. If you do indeed use them, make sure you know which types to use as they can have an incredible shrink rate which can crush your model. Non taughtening dopes is what you should be using as their shrink rates are not as great as taughtening.

In several of the dope posts I've responded to, I always comment on the luxury of using Sig brand butyrate. Why?, the thinner is the slowest drying thinner currently available in modeling dopes. If you can purchase it, Dupont 3608S  is the universal thinner for Sig and Brodak. Don't use the 3608 VS it's not the same and it won't work. 3602 is the slower thinner and a gallon is typically under $30. A pint of Sig is almost $10.  This is important on many levels, it allows for a beautiful brush job and drying slower means that moisture can escape during this process yielding a higher shine with hardly no blushing. I've painted Sig dopes on rainy days with no issue. Your not going to be able to do this on a humid day using Brodak dopes for example due to the medium drying thinner used and this means retarder has to be used. Therefore you need a mix of dope, thinner, and retarder not to mention other products like fish eye killer and plasticizers. All of this spells $$$$$$. When you look at the cost of the KBS or Klass Kote products many think that the cost is excessive. Well I find it to be slightly less when you know it's a one and done product.

My friend owns his own body shop and he's always getting samples of products to use from salesman. He provided me with a a couple sample cans to use. One in particular was HB Body 496 Auto Clear. I didn't mention this in my prior post, but one problem with auto clears is that they need to crosslink with the base coats. This means that in a standard format which would be basecoat clear coat, the base coat is sprayed and the clear coat shot next. If you leave the base coat open for too long the clear coat doesn't bond correctly to it. Certain paints will have compatibility problems like dope if it doesn't gas off properly. Enamels can not always though can blister due to trapped solvents. So providing certain auto clears over particular other brand paints is something that can be a bit experimental. I don't recommend it for those that don't like to use sandpaper. If the paint job goes south it must all be stripped off and done over. The clear coat hardens like a shell and eventually sheds off. We've all seen this on car finishes. There's more to it than that, I'm just stating an example of what it looks like.  Many times I will spray or brush dope, I then shoot the front of the plane (engine nacelle, tank compartment, engine bearers, etc) using 2 part auto urethane for fuel proofing. The rest of the plane isn't subjected to raw fuel so it works well and keeps the weight down. Ken
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Re: Rustoleum..the long term

Post  JPvelo on Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:19 am

Ken,
When you state that sig has the slowest drying thinner, is that thinner already mixed in the dope that's in the can?

Jim
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Re: Rustoleum..the long term

Post  Ken Cook on Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:05 am

Jim, that would be no. Sig dope and Brodak dope must be thinned regardless of how it's used . Lacquer dries fast compared to enamels and it dries based on solvent evaporation. Just so you know, 8 oz's of dope yields 16 oz's of paint and more. You use a lot of thinner when brushing or spraying, more thinner than dope. Sig thinner is very expensive which is why I listed the alternative thinner above. Most will say use all the same product through and through. I can tell you first hand the stuff I recommended works.   If it dries too fast, it turns milky white revealing a hazy plastic milk carton like appearance. Slower thinners can avoid this problem. Sig thinner is slow in terms that it allows a good amount of open time to allow moisture to escape rather than quickly flash over trapping the moisture which gives this appearance known as blushing.  In your climate, I would suspect that you would need additional thinner not to mention retarder if brushing, you would have to continuously have to keep adding thinner during the brushing process. Retarder and thinner are two different products. Retarder really slows down the dry time which keeps the solvents top side longer. This can foul up things if not used properly which can prevent dope from drying period.  You know when more thinner is required when the dope drags. Don't use retarder unless absolutely necessary. It's far better to wait for a better less humid day. Dope likes to be brushed one time and not back and forth.

Keeping a wet edge is an absolute must as if your puddling the dope and then spreading it. Always brush off of the work and never into it as this reduces runs and buildup on edges. This is extremely important on open bays. It's best to brush initial base coats with the orientation of the ribs leading edge to trailing edge as this reduces puddling and forcing unwanted dope drips through the polyspan, silkspan when brushed from fuse to wingtip. I use the sheeted area as a staging area for the dope and brush off of it. On solid surfaces this isn't real important aside from keeping enough material on the brush to allow the dope to melt back into your work.

If I'm spraying, I really thin it out. The recommendation is approx 60 thinner/ 40 dope. This is a guideline and this can change due to several reasons. Certain colors like silver are already thin . Silver is a color that doesn't like to be brushed on as it can leave a lot of brush strokes and streaking. Over thinning results in the aluminum powder not being able to be suspended properly within the mix . So much of this is experimental and Sig vs Brodak takes getting used to both as they have two entirely different properties in regards to how they come out. I've found that Brodak dope likes to be sprayed vs brushed. I've done it, but you must be very very quick. A very soft squirrel hair brush is required and you really need to lay it on. It won't look so good at first but it will amazingly level out in a few hours. It will also stink your entire house up and drive your wife out of her mind if you have one. I know this to be true.

I mentioned above about the fuel proof qualities of dope. It really is quite poor. Aero Gloss products in my opinion are a very poor choice for many reasons. It's not the same formulation as it's changed several times through the years. It isn't a butyrate dope product either and it's almost exclusive to itself which can cause compatibility problems if you try and go over it with something else. While I see Pactra Aero Gloss, I steer clear of it and I use Sig. Sig Lite Coat works extremely well and it can be sprayed over Brodak dope. Brodak offers more colors than Sig . You just can't brush on clear as it must be sprayed. It will soften and smear the underlying coats if you try and brush clear over a dope finish. I will brush it if I'm striping as I use the clear to prevent weeping under the tape prior to spraying the trim colors. Ken
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Re: Rustoleum..the long term

Post  getback on Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:13 am

carddfann : you can still get aero gloss thinner / paint / sealer here  http://midwestproducts.com/collections/paint   I have not had a problem with what I've been using but. mine is some of the older stuff when they had more colors to choose from , I have planes over 20 yrs. old that look just like they did when I painted them. Although they are not as pretty and slick as some of the other members they are good enough for me. Also the Midwest wood if its the same as I am use to I think is superior to that of most hobby lobby/shops ... Has any one tried dyeing there clear gloss coating for diff. colors ? Eric Very Happy
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Diamond Clear

Post  carddfann on Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:03 pm

I'm really intrigued about this diamond clear coat so I'm going to order their sampler for 20 bucks -what the heck. It's not much more costly than dope and time is worth something too. Probably dries/cures faster than Rustoleum. If it's all that I'm hearing and reading about, then this is the way to go end of story. If it works over most finishes like they say (including dope), saves time, and no nasty surprises, then this stuff is the silver bullet most of us here are looking for. I wonder it attacks dope like Brodak clear supposedly does where it has to be sprayed on instead of brushed. If I have to pour some in my air brush and spray it, so be it. On their website, it said it can be applied when temperature is down to 50F and protects paints from ALL fuels, UV resistant, and hard. That's a pretty strong claim. Almost sounds too good to be true.
I plan on using Sig Koverall. After spending a lot of time doing a nice cover job, the last thing I want happen finish wise is to start applying a finish system and be surprised when it doesn't work out and I have to strip off all the covering I worked hard to do. To help avoid this, I'm going to make a test wing out of scrap wood, apply some Koverall and treat it like an artist's canvas where I can try some different things to make sure my plan works before doing it for real on my model. If I want to try dope and have to thin it, it'll allow me a safe way to test my mix ratio with the air brush I have before doing it for real.
When I get my Diamond Clear sampler, I'll try some over different common paints and dope, test it with raw 1/2a fuel and report back.
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Re: Rustoleum..the long term

Post  JPvelo on Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:18 pm

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Re: Rustoleum..the long term

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