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CEF speed contest Design Discussions

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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  JPvelo on Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:54 pm

Roddie,
I was thinking about doing test flights with slower engines and props to get a feel for the planes. But then I thought "what if they land so poorly they get destroyed in test flight". So now my attitude is what the hell, let's fuel 'er up and go all out. I will be flying with my club for the first time, in a mall parking lot.  If I land in one piece I will experiment more. If not, I am videoing the flights and we will call them official. My son will be flying his mouse racer for the first time. Should be a fun day and I'm curious to how my speed models size up against a Tee Dee powered mouser.

You're welcome to come visit Arizona in the winter if I  can come out to New England this summer when it's 105* at midnight!

Jim
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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  roddie on Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:05 am

JPvelo wrote:Roddie,
I was thinking about doing test flights with slower engines and props to get a feel for the planes. But then I thought "what if they land so poorly they get destroyed in test flight". So now my attitude is what the hell, let's fuel 'er up and go all out. I will be flying with my club for the first time, in a mall parking lot.  If I land in one piece I will experiment more. If not, I am videoing the flights and we will call them official. My son will be flying his mouse racer for the first time. Should be a fun day and I'm curious to how my speed models size up against a Tee Dee powered mouser.

You're welcome to come visit Arizona in the winter if I  can come out to New England this summer when it's 105* at midnight!

Jim

Wow! That "will" be an adrenaline rush! I know you'll at least give us a glimpse of the boys' flight vid... He's gonna' "tare it up"!!! You said "this is what he likes!"... That's AWESOME!!!

Weather is a "mixed-bag"... in New England... (anytime...) but early Spring has it's "golden days"... where you might get a beautiful clear windless day... 65 degrees F. in early March... and two days later... it's 28F for a week.

You're welcome at our house anytime! There's plenty of good food, building materials, engines and "fishing" nearby!!

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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  JPvelo on Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:02 pm

Got both my entries in the air today, I wasn't going to post video this early and "show my hand" but what the hey lets do this:

In the first corner, with a weight of 5.5 ounces, the super corsair:
CEF speed contest Design Discussions - Page 21 W58he5b

The video, sorry I got castor on the lens:


And this corner, with a weight of 5.3 ounces, P51 with a Learjet wing and tail, Miss Ashley ll:
CEF speed contest Design Discussions - Page 21 AV2T37W

And the video:


And there you have it, I hope everyone enjoyed that.

Jim
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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  Cribbs74 on Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:49 pm

What a tease!!!!

Very cool though Jim. That earns a greenie.
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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  crankbndr on Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:53 pm

Ya, so fast I didn't see it!!!
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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  ian1954 on Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:15 pm

Both videos - 9 seconds! I think there is gamesmanship occurring.
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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  pkrankow on Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:45 pm

Wow indeed. Not quite 1 lap in 9 seconds of video. That is a tease indeed.

Phil
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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  JPvelo on Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:05 pm

Okay you got me, here's the rest of the story:

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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  Cribbs74 on Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:13 pm

Thanks Paul Harvey, but you left out the middle... Laughing 

Boy those things come down in a hurry!

Good stuff Jim.

Ron
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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  JPvelo on Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:12 pm

Cribbs74 wrote:Thanks Paul Harvey, but you left out the middle... Laughing 

Boy those things come down in a hurry!

Good stuff Jim.

Ron
They have a glide ratio somewhere between a rock and brick.

Jim
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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  Mark Boesen on Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:50 pm

fyi,Paul Harvey was a avid R/C guy, even had his own line of R/C products, mostly scale 9v light kits for planes.
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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  JPvelo on Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:54 pm

Alright, busy weekend but now I have some time to post a flight report from yesterday. My lines are 20lb spiderwire almost dead on 42' from where they exit the handle to the bellcrank. Fuel was mixed according to Lievens calculations. Wind was about ten miles an hour. Both planes get airborne almost imeadiately and want to torque roll into the circle. Ken Cook and I discussed this in the super mouse build thread. Basically be ready to whip the model on rollout and back up real quick to take up slack once the model takes off. On my Miss Ashley video you can hear the engine skip on a prop strike when I took to long to get the slack out. I thought I was going to lose both models when I first took off but by my third flight I had the technique down. I should add that both planes have zero rudder or engine offset.  Both my planes have 1/2 elevators which worked out very nice with the lines spaced on the two innermost holes of a sig 1/2a handle. They were moving pretty fast and I was able to gently guide them up and down instead of chase them. I was able to keep them flying relatively level in the wind using big smooth control movements. They are actually very easy to fly once you get them in the air with tight lines. Landing wasn't nearly as eventful as I had anticipated, the landing gear is well ahead of the cg but I still managed to nose Miss Ashley over on her second flight. There was no damage as she came to rest on her wheels and spinner. Both planes had tail skids that are now long gone and will be replaced by a small blob of epoxy, I also need to reinforce Ashleys main gear mount. I flew the corsair once and Ashley twice. The Corsair was faster, but I didn't notice prop damage from the strike on Ashleys first flight until I got home. That may have slowed her down. Ashley is lighter with a faster engine so theoretically she should go faster, but it would be cool if the little radial cowled Corsair came out on top. Both planes were easy enough to fly that there will be more flight testing. I may replace the corsairs engine with my flight contest engine. I think it's faster, I will do a comparison tomorrow. I also have a whole mess of props to play around with.

I hope you all got some usefull info from that,

Jim
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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  roddie on Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:02 pm

Thank You for the report Jim! I for one; am not sure what to expect on my first flight... and this is helpful info. Are you eliminating both models' tailskids; in order to set the tails lower on touch-down? I'm glad to hear that your tests today went well... and that both models were relatively easy to control, once tight on the lines.

My Bearcat also has zero rudder/engine offset... I came up with an adjustable lead-out guide that will permit raking the lead-outs back quite a bit for the 1st few flight tests in hopes that this will help with less eventful R.O.G.'s initially. Along with proper outboard wingtip weight and rubber O-ring tires... that my model will track straighter when the stooge-pin is released!

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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  JPvelo on Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:23 pm

Roddie,
Both tails kids broke off due the aggressive nature of the glide and subsequent landing lol!
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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  roddie on Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:31 pm

JPvelo wrote:Roddie,
Both tails kids broke off due the aggressive nature of the glide and subsequent landing lol!

OUCH..... sorry Jim... Your Son's mouse racer "sounded" to have a rather tough landing........ from the vid that I watched/"heard"... I hope it's ok...
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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  JPvelo on Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:48 pm

roddie wrote:
JPvelo wrote:Roddie,
Both tails kids broke off due the aggressive nature of the glide and subsequent landing lol!

OUCH..... sorry Jim... Your Son's mouse racer "sounded" to have a rather tough landing........ from the vid that I watched/"heard"... I hope it's ok...
The mouse is fine. We gave him a yard time and told him his first landing (before it leaned out) was great.

Jim
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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  getback on Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:07 pm

NICE JOB JIM ; That was defiantly trilling , after I just flew the other day I am wondering if this was a good idea for me , But all in fun too! witch I did laugh a lot during the vids , just imaging what my p40-q is going to do with my little experience  lol!  THANKS FOR THE INFO, Just knowing what to expect on take off is good stuff.  Wink 
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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  duke.johnson on Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:10 pm

Well, Jim has shamed me enough to start working on CL planes again.  This one just needs the motor mount and its ready for paint.  I just can't decide if I should put an .049 or an .020 on it.  I think the fuse is to short for the .049, its way nose heavy.  But it balances well with the .020.  I think I'll put the .020 on it and pull it out of the contest.  I hope to get the P-40 ready in the next couple days.
CEF speed contest Design Discussions - Page 21 Dsc_7610

CEF speed contest Design Discussions - Page 21 Dsc_7611

CEF speed contest Design Discussions - Page 21 Dsc_7612
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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  Cribbs74 on Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:13 pm

Pitts?

Speed planes don't need to be balanced so nose heavy is fine as long as you have enough roll out.

If the wing area meets the criteria I say fly it with the .049 in the contest.

Ron
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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  JPvelo on Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:22 pm

duke.johnson wrote:Well, Jim has shamed me enough to start working on CL planes again.  This one just needs the motor mount and its ready for paint.  I just can't decide if I should put an .049 or an .020 on it.  I think the fuse is to short for the .049, its way nose heavy.  But it balances well with the .020.  I think I'll put the .020 on it and pull it out of the contest.  I hope to get the P-40 ready in the next couple days.
CEF speed contest Design Discussions - Page 21 Dsc_7610

CEF speed contest Design Discussions - Page 21 Dsc_7611

CEF speed contest Design Discussions - Page 21 Dsc_7612
Use product backplate and an external tank to keep the nose short and fly it in the contest! I can send you a backplate if you need one.

Jim
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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  duke.johnson on Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:46 pm

How long should the bipe be for the contest? And where do you measure it from?

I have a backplate with a fine NVA I bought from Mark that I plan on using with a bladder in the contest. And I have two other planes started for the contest. The P-40 should be ready for paint in a couple days if things go well. I would like to get them all ready at the same time for paint.
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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  JPvelo on Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:12 pm

duke.johnson wrote:How long should the bipe be for the contest? And where do you measure it from?

I have a backplate with a fine NVA I bought from Mark that I plan on using with a bladder in the contest.  And I have two other planes started for the contest.  The P-40 should be ready for paint in a couple days if things go well.  I would like to get them all ready at the same time for paint.
12 inches from the face of the driveplate to the rear of the fuselage.

Jim
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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  roddie on Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:43 am

duke.johnson wrote:How long should the bipe be for the contest? And where do you measure it from?

I have a backplate with a fine NVA I bought from Mark that I plan on using with a bladder in the contest.  And I have two other planes started for the contest.  The P-40 should be ready for paint in a couple days if things go well.  I would like to get them all ready at the same time for paint.

Duke... I'd REALLY like to see your Bipe in the contest. Like Ron stated; a speed model can be a little nose heavy.

It's also a little early to make an accurate balance-assessment before it's painted... Many a model has become tail-heavy after it's painted.

You could also make-up a tail-gear using 1/16" music-wire with a (heavy) tail-wheel made from a small steel fender-washer.. sandwiched (glued) between two thin discs cut from sheet-plastic (or thin plywood..) for the hubs.

You'll certainly shift some weight back.. by switching to a horseshoe back-plate on the engine.. but I'd wait until I painted and completely finished the model (L/G.. wing-tip weight etc..) Besides.. if you're currently close to (or at) the minimum length spec. with the Bee... you'll have to shim your engine mount forward.. which kinda' defeats the purpose.

I know you can make it work!
Roddie

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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  duke.johnson on Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:50 pm

Cribbs74 wrote:Pitts?

Speed planes don't need to be balanced so nose heavy is fine as long as you have enough roll out.

If the wing area meets the criteria I say fly it with the .049 in the contest.

Ron

Now that I've had a little sleep, I checked out the rules. As stated earlier, the rules say 12" drive plate to end of fuse, but in this reply by Jim to Phil it seems we can count the tail feathers also.

"pkrankow wrote:
When measuring the fuselage length, does a control surface extending behind the bulk of the fuselage count?

Just checking, I expect the answer is "no"

Phil Yes, it counts. 12 inches overall length.

Jim."

It doesn't matter to me, but would like to check. The Pitts might be long enough if I move the engine around and count the rudder.

what do you think Jim?


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Mad Re: CEF speed contest Design Discussions

Post  JPvelo on Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:07 pm

Tailfeathers count as part of the 12 inches. I need to reword that in the rules for next year.

Jim
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