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Inverted Bees

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Inverted Bees

Post  Cribbs74 on Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:11 pm

I had stopped messing with bees for a while and since my kids have started flying again I have had a chance to become re-aquainted. My flying skills have improved, yet the run of the Bee remains the same.

Has anyone successfully flown a Babe Bee engine inverted for more than a lap? If so I am all ears about your setup.

Ron
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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  Ken Cook on Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:16 pm

Ron, run a piece of fuel tubing (small size) from one filler pipe to the other by wrapping the tube completely around the backplate. On the bottom cut a v notch into your tubing. The engine can now vent properly. Ken
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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  Cribbs74 on Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:24 pm

So, it's not pickup placement, it's a venting issue... Makes a heck of a lot of sense. I'll give it a shot Ken thanks!

Ron

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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  Ken Cook on Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:27 pm

As long as your pickup is located in the correct portion of the backplate it shouldn't be an issue. It certainly could be an issue if your trying this well into a tank of fuel. It shouldn't be problematic early in the flight. As your well aware, if you have that engine on a tank it will work superior to the integral stock tank. Ken
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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  JPvelo on Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:50 pm

Drill a hole in the tank large enough for a small fuel line. Run line from nipple to remote needle valve, connect bladder to valve. Fly inverted to hearts content. lol! 

Man those bees completely confound me. I started messing with one for the tach contest and had to just walk away from it. If you can get one to work for aerobatics you know something that I sure don't.

Jim
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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  Cribbs74 on Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:16 pm

Shoot Jim,

I left bees a little while back because I was tired of them cutting out all the darn time. Usually coming up to the top of an outside loop.

Level laps, the odd loop and on the bench they scream!

I have been thumbing through old magazines and see all these old 1/2A stunt planes. It got me to wondering if these things ever worked properly.

For trainers, you can't beat the simplicity, it would be fun to join in with the kids and get a decent stunt run.

Maybe I need to invest into some more medallions...

Ron
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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  duke.johnson on Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:55 pm

Ken Cook wrote:         Ron, run a piece of fuel tubing (small size) from one filler pipe to the other by wrapping the tube completely around the backplate. On the bottom cut a v notch into your tubing. The engine can now vent properly. Ken

Ken-can we get a picture of your set up? Please?
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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  roddie on Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:11 pm

I used to convert my bees to use the prod. engine (horseshoe) back-plates that I'd buy direct from Cox w/needle. I ran "perfect" small "midge" wedge-tanks w/conventional vents... and mounted the back-plate horizontally with needle facing "inboard circle"... and had no trouble with extended inverted operation. I was usually running Cox grey 6 x 3's on Sig Champion "25" 1/2A fuel. I had a method for mounting my tanks. I frame-off where the tank will sit against a profile fuse, with 1/8" balsa stick, to form horizontal "rails" for the tank to locate to, placing the tanks' feed tube and fuel tubing...in direct alignment with the venturi. I then make a cushion-pad of polyurethane "window-style air conditioner filter media" to fit between the tank and fuse.. held by a rubber band; hooked around dowels installed in the top/bottom of the fuse. This method dampens/isolates the tank from vibrations.

Will it help? it might.... keep in mind though... you'll have to re-balance an airplane designed for a Babe Bee or even more so; a Golden Bee/Black Widow... or else you may be tail heavy from switching to the horseshoe back-plate.

Roddie

sorry the pics aren't the greatest...



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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  roddie on Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:35 pm

Ken Cook wrote:         Ron, run a piece of fuel tubing (small size) from one filler pipe to the other by wrapping the tube completely around the backplate. On the bottom cut a v notch into your tubing. The engine can now vent properly. Ken

I think this is "sort of" what Ken explains... look closely and you'll see the notch cut in the tubing. (Courtesy AeroManiacs page)


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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  pkrankow on Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:51 am

All the fuel pours out of the tank inverted with baby bees. That is what stunt tanks are about.

Phil
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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  Cribbs74 on Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:23 am

Yes Phil, that is a route I could take however, even a stunt tank has quirks. I have spent a lot of time trying to get those tanks to work for me as well. Even when done up with all the mods they still lack the reliability of an external hard tank.

Like I had mentioned earlier, there are a lot of 1/2A stunt ships designed around the standard Babe Bee and it got me to thinking if that setup was even viable from the get go.

Ron
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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  Cribbs74 on Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:04 am

roddie wrote:
Ken Cook wrote:         Ron, run a piece of fuel tubing (small size) from one filler pipe to the other by wrapping the tube completely around the backplate. On the bottom cut a v notch into your tubing. The engine can now vent properly. Ken

I think this is "sort of" what Ken explains... look closely and you'll see the notch cut in the tubing. (Courtesy AeroManiacs page)



Roddie,

Here is a video of me flying my original version of the Baby Clown.

The video is grainy, but I am posting it to show the run with a medallion on a standard vent 3/4oz perfect tank. The the tank is not capped nor has the venting been modified. Nowadays I use pressure as it alleviates all problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDY2GohNlLI



It was very windy that day. I probably shouldn't have been flying, you can see all the turbulence.

Ron


Last edited by Cribbs74 on Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  duke.johnson on Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:09 am

So, is this for a Bee or TD? Tanked Bee or remote tank? I was asuming tanked bee.
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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  Cribbs74 on Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:13 am

duke.johnson wrote:So, is this for a Bee or TD?  Tanked Bee or remote tank?  I was asuming tanked bee.

Tanked Babe Bee.
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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  roddie on Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:44 am

Hey Ron, that vid made me want to FLY!! I sent a homemade muffler/pipe set to Rusty for testing. He's been straight-out busy with projects.. but said he would test it soon. There's infinite adjustability in it's flow design.. and has option for running tank-pressure too. It hadn't been conventionally possible (as far as I know...) to tap pressure from a Cox engine.. so I'm hoping that Rusty has some good runs using the tap. The inter-changeable/different size header pipes may also help to "tame-down" a model that flies too fast.. without having to change props. Time will tell I guess...

I personally like hard-tanks.. I like the way they look on a profile model. Having just successfully built my first tank.. I'd like to build a few more in the future.

Roddie
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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  duke.johnson on Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:58 am

Cribbs74 wrote:
duke.johnson wrote:So, is this for a Bee or TD?  Tanked Bee or remote tank?  I was asuming tanked bee.

Tanked Babe Bee.
So you rune the fuel tube acrossed the stunt tank vents or on the back plate vents? Sorry for asking stupid questions!
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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  Cribbs74 on Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:27 am

duke.johnson wrote:
Cribbs74 wrote:
duke.johnson wrote:So, is this for a Bee or TD?  Tanked Bee or remote tank?  I was asuming tanked bee.

Tanked Babe Bee.
So you rune the fuel tube acrossed the stunt tank vents or on the back plate vents? Sorry for asking stupid questions!

Hey! Only I can ask stupid questions!

Seriously though Ken suggested connecting the vents on the vented backplates , but looks like others have on the stunt tanks and hard tanks.

Ron

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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  batjac on Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:45 am

duke.johnson wrote:
Cribbs74 wrote:
duke.johnson wrote:So, is this for a Bee or TD?  Tanked Bee or remote tank?  I was asuming tanked bee.

Tanked Babe Bee.
So you rune the fuel tube acrossed the stunt tank vents or on the back plate vents? Sorry for asking stupid questions!

Duke, what you do is run the tube from one back plate vent, under the tank, to the other backplate vent.  If you take the drawing from above for the wedge tank and rotate it 90 degrees clockwise to get the hole on the bottom, you end up with a vented Babe Bee that won't drain fuel when the tank is inverted.  I don't remember where I read it, but I read an old article from the 60's saying that that's how they did it for flying a Bee inverted.  So, to do this you need an old backplate that actually has two vent tubes.  The newer backplates with one tube and a vent hole won't work.

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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  pkrankow on Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:59 pm

The baby bee is a trainer engine, largely due to the short run time. That it cannot do inverted or outsides is usually not an issue...for most of us. Inside loops and wing overs are fine.

http://coxengines.ca/aluminum-fuel-tank-for-cox-049-engine-stunt-version-silver-5cc.html

The pic is the 8cc, but it is the smaller, 5cc baby tank.

Last year Bernie started making these on request. Unless you want it colored he makes them up as they sell in "silver" (bare aluminum) (color has to wait till an order is sent for color anodizing) The tubes are glued in with a special adhesive that is nitro proof (unlike JBweld and other epoxies, which are merely resistant, but eventually dissolve.)

Phil

PS Drill the air passage out to 5/64 or 2mm, put a BW back on it and it will be as powerful as a black widow. Truly a fun arrangement.
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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  pkrankow on Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:00 pm

batjac wrote:
duke.johnson wrote:
Cribbs74 wrote:
duke.johnson wrote:So, is this for a Bee or TD?  Tanked Bee or remote tank?  I was asuming tanked bee.

Tanked Babe Bee.
So you rune the fuel tube acrossed the stunt tank vents or on the back plate vents? Sorry for asking stupid questions!

Duke, what you do is run the tube from one back plate vent, under the tank, to the other backplate vent.  If you take the drawing from above for the wedge tank and rotate it 90 degrees clockwise to get the hole on the bottom, you end up with a vented Babe Bee that won't drain fuel when the tank is inverted.  I don't remember where I read it, but I read an old article from the 60's saying that that's how they did it for flying a Bee inverted.  So, to do this you need an old backplate that actually has two vent tubes.  The newer backplates with one tube and a vent hole won't work.  

The Upside-Down Mark

That is a good idea, but probably won't work on the new plastic backs since there is only 1 nipple.

Phil
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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  duke.johnson on Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:18 pm

I'm thinking of trying it on a 8cc stunt tank or metal two nipple backplate.
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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  batjac on Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:10 pm

duke.johnson wrote:I'm thinking of trying it on a 8cc stunt tank or metal two nipple backplate.

Not sure what would be gained by doing this with an 8cc stunt tank, since the fuel and vent tubes are already positioned for inverted flight. I have a couple of 8cc non-vented tanks on Silver Bees, and I was thinking of trying this eventually.

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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  getback on Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:24 pm

pkrankow wrote:The baby bee is a trainer engine, largely due to the short run time.  That it cannot do inverted or outsides is usually not an issue...for most of us.  Inside loops and wing overs are fine.  

http://coxengines.ca/aluminum-fuel-tank-for-cox-049-engine-stunt-version-silver-5cc.html

The pic is the 8cc, but it is the smaller, 5cc baby tank.

Last year Bernie started making these on request.  Unless you want it colored he makes them up as they sell in "silver" (bare aluminum) (color has to wait till an order is sent for color anodizing) The tubes are glued in with a special adhesive that is nitro proof (unlike JBweld and other epoxies, which are merely resistant, but eventually dissolve.)

Phil

PS Drill the air passage out to 5/64 or 2mm, put a BW back on it and it will be as powerful as a black widow.  Truly a fun arrangement.
thanks Phil. so the 8cc is a 5cc ?don't quite get that?? Thanks and that is very helpful/ and is .084 be the drill for the air intake on the back plate? And is that nitro glue your speeking of  Laughing o sorry I see now the tank I did not look at the info close enough  Sad Goodbye 
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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  RknRusty on Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:50 pm

I think the idea of connecting the two vents on a tanked Bee is a better idea for the vented 8cc tanks. With the Babe Bee vented backplates, where the vents are both next to the needle, I plug one of the. That keeps the fuel from pouring out inverted. Then to add fuel, I have to use a syringe with a needle small enough to insert into the remaining open vent. That lets air out around the needle so you can fill the tank.
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Re: Inverted Bees

Post  pkrankow on Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:31 pm

getback wrote:
thanks Phil. so the 8cc is a 5cc ?don't quite get that?? Thanks and that is very helpful/ and is .084 be the drill for the air intake on the back plate? And is that nitro glue your speeking of  Laughing o sorry I see now the tank I did not look at the info close enough  Sad Goodbye 

Read the link description carefully about the pic and tank size.

I don't drill out back plates since the operation becomes much more difficult in my experience (they are already larger than 5/64 or .078 inch). Boring the tank out to 5/64 or 2mm is still "far" from the limit that is acceptable for easy operation, but a letter/number drill is needed to get to the limit. The correct size is mentioned in Paul Gibeault's guide (.082 inch)
http://coxengines.ca/engine-and-fuel-guides.html


I want extra power, and will work some for it, but I do not like sacrificing ease of operation in the quest. I am sure in a contest that .004 diameter difference may be the difference between winning and loosing, but I'm not racing.

Apparently the glue Bernie uses is special and quite expensive, specifically formulated for aluminum and nitromethane.

Test out a sample, high nitro glow fuel softens JBweld and other epoxies. For an intake where it will dry out right quick this is fine, but for immersion, and a closed container...I don't know. I know enough people who have repaired low nitro (5%-10%) plastic glow tanks with JB weld just fine, but the repairs are from the outside in all cases, and cover many many times the area of the injury.

Phil
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