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Post  anm2 on Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:48 pm

Can anyone identify the version of the Cox Pt - 19 that the green stabilizer came from?  It is not faded blue, it is green.  I have a photo of a blue one next to it for comparison.  I have not seen a Green Variant of the Cox PT - 19, so I found this odd.  Thanks,  Andy
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Post  G.O. Stang on Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:09 pm

Are you positive it's not blue? From the pic it looks dirty with old castor. Have you tried cleaning it? I see a small spot on the left side of it that looks blue. But that's just how I see it in the picture. I don't know of a green variant.
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Post  anm2 on Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:33 pm

Yes, I have tried cleaning it. It still looks green. The uniformity of the color is what makes me think it is green and not blue.
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Post  WingingIt74 on Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:12 pm

some of the older blues turn greenish over time.
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Post  Mark Boesen on Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:08 pm

I'm sorry to say, there was never a green PT-19, never ever! No 
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Post  John Goddard on Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:15 am

Mark Boesen wrote:I'm sorry to say, there was never a green PT-19, never ever! No 

Didn't we have a Canadian market one on here a couple years back?

As for blue/green you won't find any original Blue Kryptonics any more either Mark,
well you will but they ain't blue anyone   lol!
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Post  pkrankow on Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:51 am

Try soaking in some oxy-clean or peroxide. There might be a yellow residue on the surface that makes the part look green.

Phil
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Post  ufo3509 on Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:19 pm

I have a all yellow PT-19 with very detailed pilots is this version very rare?
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Post  batjac on Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:19 pm

A few days ago I was perusing eBay, and there was a PT-19 that same shade of green. In the pictures there was one of the inside of the fuselage. You could clearly see that the fuselage was originally light blue, but the plane had yellowed with age.

The Aged Mark
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Post  Mark Boesen on Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:04 pm

ufo3509 wrote:I have a all yellow PT-19 with very detailed pilots is this version very rare?

It's somewhat common for people to swap parts to make these, there were no factory all yellow or all blue PT-19
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Post  john cole on Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:27 am

Andy;
Hello, new member here, and I can help with your question.
A green version didn't officially exist, but what happens is that during production, the hoppers that hold the various colors of styrene beads get changed out and/or refilled. There's a transition period where injections are made to clear the old colors, and these parts are then minced and recycled (usually into control handles). Some yellow and blue were mixed at some point, because this green variation was the result. These parts were then passed along for assembly, either deliberately or by mistake. You can scrub away as much as you want to, but it's still gonna be green.
My greenish version is an early 70's model, and has color swirls in hte 'blue' parts, similar to what your stabilator has.
Hope this helps.
John
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Post  anm2 on Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:41 am

john cole wrote:Andy;
Hello, new member here, and I can help with your question.
A green version didn't officially exist, but what happens is that during production, the hoppers that hold the various colors of styrene beads get changed out and/or refilled. There's a transition period where injections are made to clear the old colors, and these parts are then minced and recycled (usually into control handles). Some yellow and blue were mixed at some point, because this green variation was the result. These parts were then passed along for assembly, either deliberately or by mistake. You can scrub away as much as you want to, but it's still gonna be green.
My greenish version is an early 70's model, and has color swirls in hte 'blue' parts, similar to what your stabilator has.
Hope this helps.
John

Thanks John, Seems like a great explanation. Andy
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Post  Mark Boesen on Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:07 am

Its not too uncommon to see some occasional slight swirling of color on parts, but to get a solid green you'd really need to mix the two colors and I don't think Coxes quality control was that poor. Cox would use clear nylon to clean out molds prior to color change. I'd have to see it to believe it, could you please take a good clear photo in sunlight of the inside of fuselage?
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Post  john cole on Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:02 pm

*Possibly* there are pictures attached. (every forum likes to do it differently...)

John

sorry, pictures didn't post. grr
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Post  RknRusty on Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:01 pm

john cole wrote:*Possibly* there are pictures attached. (every forum likes to do it differently...)

John

sorry, pictures didn't post. grr
Try this, John:

https://www.coxengineforum.com/t367-how-to-post-an-image-in-a-topic

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Post  john cole on Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:12 pm

Will try again...
John
Need help identifying a Cox Pt - 19 Variant Img_2011
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Post  john cole on Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:24 pm

Here's another picture. The swirling is in the plastic, and can be seen from either side.
John
Need help identifying a Cox Pt - 19 Variant Img_2012
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Post  john cole on Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:27 pm

And another (this is fun once you know how..)
John
Need help identifying a Cox Pt - 19 Variant Img_2013


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Post  john cole on Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:39 pm

Mark,
Wow! I've never thought of holding these parts up to sun light. It really shows the actual flow of the plastic. Very cool.Need help identifying a Cox Pt - 19 Variant Img_2014
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Post  Cribbs74 on Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:18 pm

John,

I have to agree, it was actually molded in that color. It looks too even and if it was sun faded it would look a lot different.

Also the stickers look to be aged, but not faded and they would have faded along with the plastic.

Ron

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Post  john cole on Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:48 pm

Ron,
I believe it is too. And since it's an open nose-painted pilot version, it may be somewhat earlier than I said. '65-'68 if memory serves.
I don't think that an odd color mix would necessarily be more valuable to a collector, it's just kind of an oddity I think.

There are some questions I have regarding the QZ Trainers, perhaps that should be its own thread?
Thanks again you guys.
John
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Post  Mark Boesen on Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:53 pm

Nice pics, its pretty easy once you've figured it out....I think its one of the many things that make this forum so fun.

Rats, I was looking for green? I wouldn't call it green, its definitely a different blue then the later models and does have a slight greenish tint to it, but its still more blue then green. This color was somewhat common during the mid-late sixties.

I don't know who put this together, but its probably the most complete breakdown of the PT-19, domestic version:

1st version (1960-1965)
Motor –Baby Bee with Thimble-Drome etched into the aluminum tank. Black rubber spinner, early round tip Thimble-Drome nylon prop.
Firewall – Tank mounted motor and opposite the color of the fuselage. Tab on the back to indicate the angle of the motor. Beginner-Advanced.
Fuselage – Open at the front to allow motor to tip out during crash. No reinforced areas and very thin and light. Note: The earliest version of Fuse in 1960-61 has far less panel line detail present. The initial lines are there but that is it.
Pilots - assembled from 2 pieces. Left and Right halves with mounting tabs on the shoulders. They were not painted and were injected in the color opposite the fuselage.
Windshields – separate units attached to the top of the fuselage with two tabs to locate. Plastic welded. Color: The yellow was a more Canary Yellow and the blue has a grayness.

2nd version (1966-1970)
Motor –Baby Bee with Thimble Drome etched into the aluminum tank for early portion of the run. Toward the end this etching was not on the tank.
Firewall – Tank mounted motor and opposite the color of the fuselage. Tab on the back to indicate the angle of the motor. Beginner-Advanced. Fuselage – Open at the front to allow motor to tip out during crash. No reinforced areas and very thin and light. Panel and rivet detail continued from the 62 and on version. Toward the end of the run for this model the area around the motor may be trimmed away more to alleviate warping from exhaust.
Pilots - assembled from 2 pieces. Left and Right halves with mounting tabs on the shoulders. Painted but with the color of the plastic that they were molded from left exposed as the color of the shirt they were wearing. One guy in a Blue shirt and the other in Yellow per plane.
Windshields – separate units attached to the top of the fuselage with two tabs to locate. Plastic welded. Color: The yellow changed and was a more standard and darker or School Bus yellow and the blue changed to a lighter Blue.

3rd version (1970-1973)
Motor –Baby Bee with integral tank as on earlier versions. Firewall – Tank mounted motor and opposite the color of the fuselage. Tab on the back to indicate the angle of the motor. Beginner-Advanced.
Fuselage – Same but with a cross bar added to join the left and right sides in front of the motor. Also the opening for the motor is smaller if looking at it from the top.
Pilots - assembled from 2 pieces. Left and Right halves with mounting tabs on the shoulders. Painted with the color of the plastic that they were molded from left exposed as the color of the shirt they were wearing. One guy in a Blue shirt and the other in Yellow per plane.
Windshields – separate units attached to the top of the fuselage with two tabs to locate. Plastic welded. Wing- Rubber band posts are reinforced somewhere during this run.
Color: Same as version 2

4th version (1974)
Motor –Initial version had Baby Bee but changed to a motor with a plastic back plate. Primarily In Red plastic.
Firewall – Tank mounted motor became unit with a plastic back plate and required a different and deeper firewall to make up the difference in length. Yellow in color. May be a blue. Not sure but all eventually became black.
Fuselage – Initial units had no integrated tank for Baby Bee but changed to integral tank. Initial filler and overflow nipples were the same size in front of the windshield and later changed to 1 nipple with a larger overflow and floating valve out of black plastic. Side lugs were added for to strap rubber bands under the wing from front to back. Tank: Molded in plastic matching the fuselage with an offset triangular shape to drain fuel on the right side and keep motor fed using centrifugal force. Pilots /Windshields – Assembled a complete and separate interior that included the windshields. Mounted from inside on two posts that were mushroomed with heat to keep this in place. Heads were larger and shirts on the pilots were orange. This was a more complete pilot with full torso. Instruments are a sticker on the dash. Elevator – 2nd position and slower adjustment for pushrod added. This may have been added during the end of the 3rd version.
Color: Blue became darker.

5th version (Early 80’s)
Motor – Motor with a plastic back plate.
Firewall – Deeper firewall continues to make up the difference in length from the Baby Bee. Black in color. Tank: Molded in clear/white plastic much like a film canister and now round in shape with an offset single nipple drain. No longer triangular in shape and motor can starve during nose up situations.
Fuselage – Completely different fuselage. Rivet detail and lines have changed although it looks traditional. Windshields are only a very vertical frame and Pilots shoulders are formed into the back of the cockpit. Big Dudley Do-right heads that are heat welded in place from below. The heads nearly always break off. Overall a thicker and more durable fuselage.
Color: Same Darker Blue and the yellow is School bus or Safety yellow.

6th version (Early 90’s)
Motor –Cox Sure Start. Firewall – Deeper firewall but this version is different to clear the snorkel on the Sure Start motor and the wire on the landing gear is formed differently. Tank: Round tank continues. Does not stay attached to the fuselage. Pops off easily. Fuselage – Again different with increasingly cruder detailing. Opening for the Bellcrank changed with rounded windows for strength. Pilots are molded in as well on this version but even a step cruder on the detail Wing- Much thinner and very flexible with a Tip weight. Rudder: Will not transfer to older PTs and does not locate the same. Color: A little darker blue and schoolbus yellow continues
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Post  Mark Boesen on Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:59 pm

Here's some interesting pictures of a Pitts with swirl color plastic (these were never sold as retail) and a Corsair made with nylon, used to clean molds. These photos are from Larry Miller.

Need help identifying a Cox Pt - 19 Variant Thimbl10

Need help identifying a Cox Pt - 19 Variant Clearc10
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Post  anm2 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:18 am

john cole wrote:Mark,
Wow! I've never thought of holding these parts up to sun light. It really shows the actual flow of the plastic. Very cool.Need help identifying a Cox Pt - 19 Variant Img_2014

John,

Thanks for taking the time to post those pictures. My initial question has been answered. That's why I really like this forum. I get to learn a lot more about the hobby. Andy
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Post  Mudhen on Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:05 am

Mark Boesen wrote:Need help identifying a Cox Pt - 19 Variant Thimbl10

I could kick myself. Those two used be in my collection.
The marbled Pitts is what’s referred to as a “mold purge.” The Li’l Stinker parts came from a “family mold.” That is, all the parts are cut into one mold, thus, one color. But the Stinker was a red and white model. This meant that parts were scheduled for mold in white and later in the week for red. When transitioning from one color to another the mold operator had the option of draining the heated plastic through the back of the mold, or just allow the machine to continue molding parts until the old color was completely purged. The result is what you see. It’s rare to find “purged” molded products, but they are out there.
For years Cox experimented with a variety of colors to determine which color they thought was best for a particular product. So one could find a variety of “test Shots”, or purges. (I have about eight AD Skyraiders molded in a variety of non-production colors.) Another way that purged products appeared was after the molds were originally finished. Cox practice was to run a few “pre-production” samples. These items were molded to make sure all the parts fit correctly. It didn’t matter what color was used, it was only to determine the mold quality and that parts met the blueprint standard. Once pre-production was finished, then the item was molded in the color it was intended for. The result again was a marbled model. Usually, though, these products never left the factory. They were either recycled or tossed in the trash. (I have a black Bendix Racer that was pulled from the trash from one of the Tomorrowland Thimble-Drome pilots.)  Over the years I have either seen or heard of odd colored products…which I continue to search for to add to my collection. Among them are the following:
Black P-40, Red P-40, O.D. Green PT-19, (I actually had the wing to this one, but never bothered to keep it…what a dope!) Clear TD-1 and TD-3, (both used as evidence in the Walker/Cox lawsuit.) Clear W-196, White SB2D Helldiver…and many others.
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