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Post  batjac Thu May 01, 2014 1:01 am

No one I work with flies model planes of any kind, C/L or R/C.  But, they all run R/C cars.  So, I figured I'd build a cheap car to run with them.  The first, last, and only car kit I've ever built was a Tamiya Grasshopper about 30 years ago.  So, I looked on eBay to see if I could find an original one, but the prices were ridiculous.  Although, the search showed that Tamiya re-released the Grasshopper a few years ago.  So, I ordered one from Horizon and a cheap HK radio.  I built it with a spare motor I had from an old helicopter.
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I'm going out to the track tomorrow and run the cars with a co-worker and his son.  Of course, I also plan to bring a couple of beginner control line models to show them what they really want to do for a hobby.


The Side Tracked Mark
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Post  batjac Thu May 01, 2014 1:46 pm

Well, it worked.  My co-worker put two flights on the Osbourne Platter I built for my son, and now he wants one.  When he was a kid, he got one of the Cox Wings Series planes for Christmas, and didn't even make a half lap before crashing it.  His father just said, "Well, I guess that's it", and they never tried again.  When I mentioned C/L a few months ago to him, that was his only impression of it and he wasn't interested.

He asked if I'd build him a plane if he gave me the money for parts.  I declined.  But I did tell him I'd sit down with him and build one together, and he jumped at it.  I'll cut him out a kit over the next couple of days, and I'll build up a Babe Bee and test run it.  Then we can make an evening to build it.  I suppose I could bring along a disassembled Bee and show him how the engine works.  I'll also bring a set of plans for a Beginner's Ringmaster that he can build on his own, and transfer the engine to later.

The Mentor Mark
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Post  RknRusty Thu May 01, 2014 2:08 pm

If I may make a suggestion regarding reducing the frustration factor. Babe Bees are really convenient, being an all in one package. But countless times I've had one run like a jewel today and act like slag tomorrow. Granted, most of my Babe experience came before I was enlightened by CEF and had Matt and Bernie as a resource. But a tankless Bee with a decent external tank almost always cranks right up and needles cleanly, and is much simpler to rebuild by a novice. Just my humble opinion.
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Post  JPvelo Thu May 01, 2014 4:25 pm

RknRusty wrote:If I may make a suggestion regarding reducing the frustration factor. Babe Bees are really convenient, being an all in one package. But countless times I've had one run like a jewel today and act like slag tomorrow. Granted, most of my Babe experience came before I was enlightened by CEF and had Matt and Bernie as a resource. But a tankless Bee with a decent external tank almost always cranks right up and needles cleanly, and is much simpler to rebuild by a novice. Just my humble opinion.
Rusty
I couldn't agree more.

Jim
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Post  andrew Thu May 01, 2014 4:43 pm

batjac wrote:Well, it worked.  My co-worker put two flights on the Osbourne Platter I built for my son, and now he wants one.  ................. I'll also bring a set of plans for a Beginner's Ringmaster that he can build on his own, and transfer the engine to later.

The Mentor Mark

Here's another option for a simple DIY build: http://www.balsabeavers.com/information/plans/manwin.pdf
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Post  Cribbs74 Thu May 01, 2014 5:37 pm

I agree about the Bee engine as well. However, a beginner will probably only fly in circles and the Bee will do that just fine. It will even do a loop just fine as well.

I also agree that if any air leak comes into play they run like crap. So I guess it's up to you.

My kids use Bee's on their trainers, but I have gone through them and made sure they run fine. I think as long as the new pilot is educated as Mark is suggesting he will probably have no problem.

Ron
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Post  getback Thu May 01, 2014 8:43 pm

I guess I am just a Butt I think a lot of knowhow comes from the baby bee , just like days all are not what you wish ....But a good experience is also needed at this point   Huh... that sounds two faced or what ?  Eric   Just have FUN! nice car how did it do
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Post  batjac Thu May 01, 2014 11:42 pm

RknRusty wrote:If I may make a suggestion regarding reducing the frustration factor. Babe Bees are really convenient, being an all in one package. But countless times I've had one run like a jewel today and act like slag tomorrow. Granted, most of my Babe experience came before I was enlightened by CEF and had Matt and Bernie as a resource. But a tankless Bee with a decent external tank almost always cranks right up and needles cleanly, and is much simpler to rebuild by a novice. Just my humble opinion.
Rusty

Maybe it's just because I've been playing with them since I was a kid, but Babe Bees are dead simple to me.  So long as everything's tight, they run without issue for me.  If I get it to run right, it will run for me tomorrow, next week, or next year from my experience.  For example, I built this Platter for my son last July or August.  He only flew it a couple of times, and that was it.  So, a couple of drops of after run oil, and it's sat for most of a year.  When I started it up yesterday for the first time, I just backed off the needle a turn, and after three or four flips, it started right up.  Turning the needle back in a turn and it was singing along happily.  

But, I also don't try to squeeze every bit of performance from these engines.  I just use a standard head, a couple of shims, a stock prop, and set the needle just back of peak.  That's enough to get a basic plane in the air and flying a whole tank.  For a basic beginner plane, the engine only has to run reliably.  When moving up to a built up wing is when I start to worry about getting peak RPM and torque from these engines.  I sometimes think, reading many of the threads on this forum, that we get so wrapped up in squeezing every bit of power out of these fine little engines, that we forget they were designed to be run by novices, and that they put out plenty of power in stock form to keep a simple little trainer in the air.  Not knocking anyone who takes the time to tweak and tune their engines for max output.  Just saying that they are great engines dead stock.  I would even call them elegant.

I built up a Babe Bee a little while ago from my parts bin, and I'll tweak it tomorrow.  Since the first few times my co-worker will be out flying is with me, I figure I can see to it that he has the basics down.  He already knows how to start one, since he asked me to let him start the engine when I did the demo flight on the Platter.  That's also why I want to have an engine for instruction, so he can see how it works, and how to take it apart, clean it, and put it back together if it suddenly starts running rough or lacks power.  Rebuilding should be no problem for him, as we both fix and maintain complicated machinery at our job.

The Simple Mark
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Post  batjac Thu May 01, 2014 11:50 pm

andrew wrote:
batjac wrote:Well, it worked.  My co-worker put two flights on the Osbourne Platter I built for my son, and now he wants one.  ................. I'll also bring a set of plans for a Beginner's Ringmaster that he can build on his own, and transfer the engine to later.

The Mentor Mark

Here's another option for a simple DIY build:  http://www.balsabeavers.com/information/plans/manwin.pdf

Andrew, I did think about the ManWin, and I've built two of them. I also have enough coroplast in the right dimensions to build three or four ManWin trainers. Maybe I'll print out a drawing for that, also. But I kinda want him to start on balsa, too. Coroplast is great for building quick and indestructible planes, but "Balsa Flies Better".

The Traditional Mark
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Post  RknRusty Fri May 02, 2014 1:01 am

Okay Mark, point taken.
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Post  rat9000 Fri May 02, 2014 1:54 am

Mark, I've got one babe bee that's giving me fits,-----I started writing this and thought of something,I've replaced everything in fuel sys. but that one small gasket that's between backplate and air inlet,I looked at it and thought its ok,but it will not pick up fuel.I'll get a new one and try it again.Its going in an old Corsair.
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Post  batjac Fri May 02, 2014 2:57 am

RknRusty wrote:Okay Mark, point taken.
Rusty

Rusty, I didn't mean to sound preachy or intimate that I don't value your judgement. I was just expounding on my reasons for loving the good ole Babe Bee.

The Pontificating Mark
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Post  batjac Fri May 02, 2014 3:04 am

rat9000 wrote:Mark, I've got one babe bee that's giving me fits,-----I started writing this and thought of something,I've replaced everything in fuel sys. but that one small gasket that's between backplate and air inlet,I looked at it and thought its ok,but it will not pick up fuel.I'll get a new one and try it again.Its going in an old Corsair.

When you say giving you fits, do you mean it won't run, or won't run consistently?  I generally replace that little gasket any time I do a refresh of a Bee engine.  I keep a supply on hand from Bernie, but there's a sticky on making your own.  I've done it both ways, and both work.  I just like using the gaskets from Bernie because, well, I'm just that way...

https://www.coxengineforum.com/t308-quick-and-easy-way-to-make-venturi-gaskets

Let us know if that helps.  If not there's plenty of guys here that can help solve your headache.

The Analgesic Mark
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Post  rat9000 Fri May 02, 2014 3:58 am

It wont run past prime,I tapped crankcase holes to get a better seat and broke the tap,luckily got it out.I've got a good supply from Bernie,but I like the handmade ones better that you showed.Listening to Martina McBride.I fired one up in the shop a couple of weeks ago,I told the guys you've got to smell this nitro burning-the supervisior was'nt to happy with it...
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Post  Cribbs74 Fri May 02, 2014 4:11 pm

I used to cut my own until I was turned on to dart shaft o-rings. Those work the best in my opinion.

Ron
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Post  andrew Sat May 03, 2014 11:10 pm

Cribbs74 wrote:I used to cut my own until I was turned on to dart shaft o-rings. Those work the best in my opinion.

Ron

I've done both, but I found that a metric o-ring, 1mm thick, 2mm ID works even better than the dart rings simply because they are a bit thinner and won't cause the plastic backplates to distort when tightened down.  Link is below:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#9262k101/=rta1kv
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Post  rat9000 Sun May 04, 2014 1:35 am

I,tryed it again tonight with mods that I made,new gasket,crank holes tapped,I'm getting the same thing,prime,, wont pick up fuel,its got great compression,one thing is how can you check to see if bleed is open between needle and venturi, I sprayed cleaner thru it.And this is going into a p-40 not a Corsair,its a 5cc tank that's cast..The Buna N O Rings from McMaster are trick-I will get a pack.Thats a good backup plan with flexline tks
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Post  batjac Sun May 04, 2014 5:40 pm

rat9000 wrote:I,tryed it again tonight with mods that I made,new gasket,crank holes tapped,I'm getting the same thing,prime,, wont pick up fuel,its got great compression,one thing is how can you check to see if bleed is open between needle and venturi, I sprayed cleaner thru it.And this is going into a p-40 not a Corsair,its a 5cc tank that's cast..The Buna N O Rings from McMaster are trick-I will get a pack.Thats a good backup plan with flexline tks

WARNING: Long post with stuff you’ve probably read over and over!


Rat, as you know, the three things needed for the engine to run are Fuel, Air, and Ignition Source.  If I were having your problem, the basic things that I would do, were it me are:

Ignition source:  
1) I’m sure you checked the glow head more than once. (You did, didn’t you?)
2) Your starter batteries are fresh, right?  I only use 2 Duracell D-cells.  I avoid the 1 ½ volt hobby batteries from the hobby shop/department store like the plague.  You never know how old those things are.

Air/Fuel:  Since you’re replacing the venturi gasket, that means you’re taking off the tank.  So,
1) Does the backplate still have the mesh screen on it?  Is the screen clogged?  I’m a risk taker and remove the screen myself.
2) Is the opening around the spray bar clean and clear?  Hold the backplate up to a light and make sure there’s no clogging of the opening.
3) Is the hole in the spraybar clear? Use a small, focused flashlight and shine it at the spraybar hole while looking down through the needle tube for light.  You can see the light in the tube if the hole is clear. Alternatively, you could hook a small fuel tank to the pick-up tube nipple, open the needle valve, and hold the backplate lower than the fuel tank to see if fuel weeps from the spraybar hole.
4) Are you using the correct needle?  If you got the Bee second hand, the previous owner may have put in the wrong needle.  You need this one. (http://coxengines.ca/cox-.049-needle-valve-309.html)
5) Is the pickup tube clogged?  Over time the tubes get brittle and gummed up, as does the spring.
6) Is the venturi tube clear?  Remove the reed retaining clip and reed.  Look through the venturi tube to make sure it’s clean and clear.
7) Is the reed creased or bent?   Does it seat properly?
8 ) When installing the reed, is the reed retaining clip in the right way?  It can be installed backwards.  Make sure the clip is installed with the cross bar sticking up towards the crankshaft, allowing the reed to float.
9) Does the reed seal?   Take a piece of medium or large fuel tube and put it over the venturi tube and gently suck in to see if the reed seals.
10) Do you have a good crankcase gasket?
11) When assembling, make sure to tighten the screws snug, but not excessively tight as that can crack/break the backplate.
12) Do the fuel tube and washer trick when installing the needle.
13) For myself, the things I always replace on a Bee when re-working it are the fuel pick-up tube, the venturi gasket, the reed, and the crankcase gasket.  If necessary, the pick-up tube spring and the reed retaining clip.
Test running:
1) Use whatever glow fuel you have on hand, so long as it is Cox compatible.
2) Use a stock Cox 5/3 prop if you have one.
3) Again, use two fresh D-cell batteries, just so you know that’s good.
4) Start with the needle 3 turns out, and open/close from there to get it to start.
5) Prime and crank her up.  Use a spring starter if you can, as I think this makes it easier to start.
6) If it starts, needle it for a rich run and let it run out a tank.  Worry about getting a full tank run first.  Worry about peaking RPM after running through a couple of tanks.
7) If it starts and runs backwards, let it.  You’re just trying to get it to run at this point, so if it runs in either direction, you’re where you want to be.  Worry about the direction on the second run.

Those're the steps I used on Friday to get a Babe Bee started up that hadn't run in many, many years.

The Long Winded Mark
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Post  pkrankow Sun May 04, 2014 8:33 pm

Anaerobic sealant is your friend. Well, it is my friend at least. It is expensive for a small tube, but I have rebuilt a dozen engines and I swear the tube is full. I use a couple drops - not much at all. I use it on the crankcase gasket, venturi gasket, and I fill the rim of the tank, then clean the inside as well as I can. I also use a drop under each screw head. Assemble, tighten, clean the outside with a paper towel, and run it assured there are no air leaks.

Check the reed with a tube for sealing with the needle closed off just to be safe. A stuck or creased reed is a miserable thing.

Phil
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Post  batjac Thu May 15, 2014 5:35 pm

Well, it worked. I met my friend this morning, and we tried out the platter I made for him. He's excited flying it. He put a couple of flights on before he had to take his son to gymnastics, but he's ready to go tomorrow morning. And, he saw the Little Toot I brought along and wants a biplane of his own. I pointed out that the equipment form the coroplast plane will swap right over, and he's stoked to build a biplane.

The Mentor Mark
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Post  RknRusty Thu May 15, 2014 7:53 pm

Great, you hooked one. Be sure and send him to CEF for his building questions and updates.
Rusty

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Post  rat9000 Fri May 16, 2014 2:04 am

Mark,thought I better post this after all the typing you did on trouble shooting a babe bee,just recently got back to it and-No. 3) Is hole in spray bar clean>hook tank to pick up tube nipple see if fuel weeps.Bingo,had two torn apart both with backing plates,both were plugged,got an ultrasonic cleaner with hoppes.I,m also going with Anaerobic glue for safety.I copied your list,hopefully you wont go through that again,gave you a thanks too.
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