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Post  batjac Fri May 23, 2014 1:29 am

Well, since the first build thread I did was The Baby Brothers thread (https://www.coxengineforum.com/t5248-baby-brothers?highlight=brothers) almost a year ago, I figured it’s time to do another.  I’m calling this one The Older Brothers.  They’re both a design called Ferdinand.  The design originally appeared in the September 1959 edition of Aeromodeller.  Then, an updated version appeared in the January 1967 edition.  I like the looks of both, so I thought I’d do another “Brothers” build.

Here’re the two wood kits I cut out:
Older Brothers DSCN1706_zpsbad99e9f

I’ll start off with the 1959 version of the Ferdinand.   The plans called for 1/8” balsa for the wings, but I wanted to use 3/32” for the wings of both planes.  After cutting the wings for the ’67 version, I only had enough 3/32” left for one wing.  So the top wing is 3/32” and the bottom is 1/8”.  The firewall is also a little different.  The plans call for a piece of 1/8” balsa sandwiched between 1/16” ply.  I went with a sandwich of 1/16” balsa instead.  The only other deviation from the plans is using 1/32 balsa for the top and bottom sheeting instead of 1/16”.  Other than that, I mostly followed the plans.  Mostly.   Here’s the wood cut out, and the plans:
Older Brothers DSCN1701_zps4000e349
Older Brothers DSCN1705_zps8ed4b68d

I started by drawing the former and firewall lines on the fuse halves, then creasing the upper portion of the side where they will be joined at the top.  I glued in the former and firewall, then gently pulled together the two sides forming the point.  It looks funny, but I find the pointed cabin kinda quaint.
Older Brothers DSCN1714_zps5239d4fa
Older Brothers DSCN1718_zps8e94ee0f
Older Brothers DSCN1720_zps41a20fd0

Next, I made the 1/16 deck beneath the pointed cabin, and then pulled together the tail ends of the fuse.  I pinned a balsa spacer, and then glued some planking on the turtledeck to hold the spacing for the rest of the build.
Older Brothers DSCN1721_zps0068aeea
Older Brothers DSCN1727_zpsbf99c9f4

The "To Be Continued" Mark
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Older Brothers Empty On to the wing

Post  batjac Fri May 23, 2014 1:31 am

On to the wing.  I cut a square piece if 1/8 ply for the bellcrank mount and glued it in place.  Then I test fit the upper wing to make sure I cut the struts even, and then I glued the struts in place.  To verify I cut the struts correctly, I used an old bubble level I had on hand.  I think it was included in a TV wall mount kit I bought years ago.
Older Brothers DSCN1723_zps07d895d7
Older Brothers DSCN1732_zps3c85bc04
Older Brothers DSCN1729_zps1f522c0f
Older Brothers DSCN1731_zpsffdb202f
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Older Brothers Empty Pulling it all together

Post  batjac Fri May 23, 2014 1:36 am

And then, I made up the leadouts, measured and fabricated the pushrod, mounted the bellcrank, glued the wings in place, hinged the stab & elevator and glued them in place, glued the top and bottom sheeting, and bent the landing gear and fit it in the firewall sandwich...  I got on a roll and forgot to take pictures.  Laughing 

The old 0.5cc to 0.9cc diesels this was designed for must have been awfully heavy, because the nose of this thing is so short coupled.  I’m definitely going to come out tail heavy.  I may have to cut some lightening holes in the sides.  (edit: looking back up at the plans, the engine profile looks larger than a Cox .09.  Maybe I should put a Medallion .09 in it.)

I’ll put a Bee with an 8CC stunt tank and a muffler on it.  Here it is all assembled and ready for paint.
Older Brothers DSCN1741_zps3607d6d6
This thing has a HUGE elevator.  It’s going to be able to do nice aerobatics if I get brave enough with it.  I’m still shy about risking my models, though.
Older Brothers DSCN1742_zps5c2bc023
Older Brothers DSCN1753_zpse6ab1d7c
Older Brothers DSCN1746_zpsd716ed07
Older Brothers DSCN1749_zps9e3f8a16

I’ll set it aside now and build the later version, and then paint them both at the same time.


The Bullish Mark
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Post  Theo Kleynhans Fri May 23, 2014 1:56 am

Nice looking bi-plane Mark.

You make it look so easy.

I also would like to build a bi-plane. It always looks great flying.

I have started a Little satan build for now. I should also start a build thread and show how it is progressing.

Awaiting the second build.

Theo
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Post  OVERLORD Fri May 23, 2014 2:09 am

Mark, That is very good looking. I suppose you will still sand the wings to that profile as on the drawings before painting?

Show us that Li'l Satan Theo!!!

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Post  batjac Fri May 23, 2014 2:10 pm

OVERLORD wrote:Mark, That is very good looking. I suppose you will still sand the wings to that profile as on the drawings before painting?

Show us that Li'l Satan Theo!!!

Lieven

Theo and Lieven,

Thanks for the compliments, Guys.  Lieven, I'm not going to sand an airfoil shape in the wings, just round off the edges.  I thought about it, but decided not to because:
1) The field I fly in is across the street and is a rough grass field, so every landing results in a tumble.  Sanding the wing down to the thin airfoil section just makes it more likely a wing will break on landing.  
2) On a model this size with such a small wing, I do not believe sanding such a thin airfoil into the wing will really make much difference over a flat sheet wing.  I don't think the time and mess of sanding such a thin airfoil is worth the slight, if any, benefit.  That's why I went with 3/32" versus 1/8" sheet for the wing.  Less drag, and just as strong in a biplane configuration compared to a 1/8" sheet wing on a monoplane.
3) I thought about ordering some 3" airfoil shaped balsa from Sig, since I need other supplies and some fuel, but decided against it.  As you can see, the plane has a huge elevator, and plenty of throw, so I fool myself into believing I might do some mild aerobatics with it.  Certainly inverted flight.  And to sand the airfoil into the wing, if it's at all effective, would be counterproductive to that aim.

After thinking on it overnight, I've decided I'm not through building this yet.  With the nose so short coupled, I'll either have to lighten the tail, or add weight to the nose.  Neither is very desirable.  So I have decided to add an extension to the nose to get the engine out further.  It won't be true to the plans, but I figure if the original author, Mr. Barrett, had had a Babe Bee on hand to design around, he would have made the nose longer, too.  I'll make a new firewall and experiment with some tape and balsa to find the length I need and add it on.

The Redirected Mark
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Older Brothers Empty Re: Older Brothers

Post  batjac Fri May 23, 2014 10:15 pm

Well, I couldn’t bear to enlarge the schnozz on this plane, so I changed direction again.  The 1967 version does use a Babe Bee, so I used the same method used on that one.  I used 1 ½” wheels, heavier than I normally use, but comparable to the ones used back then.  I bent heavier gear wire and moved the wheels a little further forward.  It balances slightly nose heavy now, but the weight of the paint should bring it back in.

The first thing I did is to put together the engine for it.  This is an eBay Babe Bee that I got a few months ago.  It turned pretty freely, but I put the front end into a jar of glow fuel for a few days to dissolve any residual gunk in there.  If it were gummed up, I’d drive out the crank and clean everything out, but since it wasn’t gummed up before, I’ll not take it down that far.  The red stunt tank is one of a couple I bought from Bernie on close-out for just such an occasion. I’ll use a bit of tubing to close the tank back vents.  The bottle of oil is some light sewing machine oil I use on reassembly of engines.
Older Brothers DSCN1756_zps3866aeeb

The ball joint was overly loose in the piston, so it got a few taps from a hammer in the piston rod reset tool.  The rest of the assembly was as normal.
Older Brothers DSCN1759_zps9c958a2f
Older Brothers DSCN1761_zps7f1af009

And, all together.
Older Brothers DSCN1763_zps98ae62d3

The Finally Done Mark.
I think.
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Older Brothers Empty Re: Older Brothers

Post  batjac Sun May 25, 2014 2:10 am

And to the younger older brother.  I’ll start off by using a new XActo blade.  The lower blade has been used to build nine other planes.  But, unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be able to be sharpened any more.  So, a new blade.
Older Brothers DSCN1767_zpsbedbb1cc

The parts spread out:
Older Brothers DSCN1697_zps93e4663d

Starting as usual with the formers on one side, then gluing the other side to the formers.  I inserted the ply mount for the bellcrank,  and then the bellcrank itself into the lower wing.  Then, as before, I glued in one section of sheeting on the top to hold the position of the read fuselage for the rest of the build.
Older Brothers DSCN1764_zpsb9337e7b
Older Brothers DSCN1765_zps7d335861
Older Brothers DSCN1769_zpsaa36365c
Older Brothers DSCN1774_zpsc4656de4

I taped the lines to keep the bellcrank centered so I could rough cut the pushrod.
Older Brothers DSCN1776_zpsf42924bf


Then I finished sheeting the top, and masked off so I could shoot a quick coat of paint for the cabin.
Older Brothers DSCN1781_zpsd494f17e
Older Brothers DSCN1783_zps3fc95ef9
Older Brothers DSCN1787_zpsa7952217

The cabin after shooting the paint.
Older Brothers DSCN1790_zps6ebb5441
Older Brothers DSCN1794_zps68b617d2
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Older Brothers Empty Re: Older Brothers

Post  batjac Sun May 25, 2014 2:15 am

Now, I taped the wing and stab to the fuselage so I could mark the final bend position for the pushrod.
Older Brothers DSCN1807_zpsc3d973b5
Older Brothers DSCN1808_zps55702010

After bending the pushrod to length and hooking it to the control horn, I glued the bottom wing to the fuselage and sheeted the bottom, followed by gluing on the stab. When I had the stab glued on and I sat back and looked at it, I thought that it would look good with the upper wing left off. It'd make a nefty lowing sport plane. Maybe I'll use the plans for another low winger, just enlarging the area a little bit.
Older Brothers DSCN1810_zps958df039
Older Brothers DSCN1811_zpsad63cd5f
Older Brothers DSCN1814_zpsd538291d

Now for the fun part.  Making sure the wings get aligned right.  I used my bubble level and carefully sanded, checking level side to side and fore to aft.
Older Brothers DSCN1817_zpsa4a89ac4
Older Brothers DSCN1818_zps10c80542
Older Brothers DSCN1815_zpse2ae5499

With that done, it was make or break time, so I applied the glue and pressed the top wing in place.
Older Brothers DSCN1821_zpse6eba0de
Older Brothers DSCN1827_zps3a594967

Next the struts.
Older Brothers DSCN1823_zpsfb31f223
Older Brothers DSCN1829_zps9105427c

And finally the fin.
Older Brothers DSCN1831_zps9596a297


Last edited by batjac on Sun May 25, 2014 2:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post  batjac Sun May 25, 2014 2:17 am

This is as far as I got today.  I’ll try to make some time tomorrow evening to bend up the landing gear and assemble the engine for it. Then figure out a good way to glue the windows in place.  If the balance works out, I can paint on my day off next Thursday.
Older Brothers DSCN1836_zpsfb141172
Older Brothers DSCN1838_zpsb35460a5
Older Brothers DSCN1834_zpsac75903c


Well, time for bed.

The Tired Mark
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Post  RknRusty Sun May 25, 2014 2:30 am

Mark, how do you sharpen your exacto blades? Was that you that did a thread on that a few months ago? Someone on some forum did, but I forgot how to do it now.
I gotta go back to bed too.
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Post  Surfer_kris Sun May 25, 2014 6:14 am

The ceramic sharpeners sort of works, but it is not quite the same a new blade...
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Post  getback Sun May 25, 2014 7:38 am

Looking good there Mark , I like watching ur builds  Cool  I would like to know about the sharpening process u use to get 9 plane s built with?...Call me stupid or just don't know but have never seen anyone say why the plastic wrap is used to build on ?  Smile Thanks ,Getback
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Post  batjac Sun May 25, 2014 12:35 pm

RknRusty wrote:Mark, how do you sharpen your exacto blades? Was that you that did a thread on that a few months ago? Someone on some forum did, but I forgot how to do it now.
I gotta go back to bed too.
Ruuuyyaawwnsty

Yup. That was my thread way back then. I decided to see just how many planes I could get out of that blade. I also used the blade for any other generic cutting needed, like cutting control lines and such. I don't remember if I posted a picture of the sharpener I used. I'll post a pic tonight when I get home from work.

The Sharp Mark
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Post  batjac Sun May 25, 2014 12:37 pm

getback wrote:.Call me stupid or just don't know but have never seen anyone say why the plastic wrap is used to build on ?  Smile Thanks ,Getback

Getback, the plastic wrap is used when gluing with CA. CA doesn't stick to the plastic wrap, so you can use it over plans when building. I just always have a sheet under my work so any drips from the CA bottle or off of the part I'm working on won't stick to my working surface.

The Clingy Mark
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Post  batjac Mon May 26, 2014 12:14 am

RknRusty wrote:Mark, how do you sharpen your exacto blades?
Ruuuyyaawwnsty

This is the sharpener I use.  It has metal sharpening blades for knives, and a ceramic sharpener for scissors.
Older Brothers DSCN1839_zps081a994d
Older Brothers DSCN1841_zps10d60f82
Older Brothers DSCN1843_zps8023eaa5

No work on the Ferdinand tonight.  After I got home, Rocky III was on, so I vegged instead.

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Older Brothers Empty An interesting comparison

Post  batjac Tue May 27, 2014 11:31 pm

Something I noticed this evening as I was moving stuff around.  The wing area of the Little Toot is greater than the Ferdinand.  The Toot has a constant 2 ¾” chord, whereas the Ferdinand has a 3” root tapering to a 2 ½” tip, so average chord is the same for both.  The Toot has about 1 ½” wider wingspan.
Older Brothers DSCN1847_zpsc51922a4


But look at the difference in the stab and elevator between the two planes.  It’s amazing how much more the Ferdinand has than the Toot:
Older Brothers DSCN1849_zps8b69dd62

The Astounded Mark
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Post  MikeM Tue May 27, 2014 11:59 pm

Mark,

please check your PM box and get back to me..................

thx
-mike
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Post  Theo Kleynhans Wed May 28, 2014 12:54 am

Hi Mark. That is a big difference on the stab and elevator. Wonder how different the planes will fly?

I must say your TOOT looks great.

Do you maybe have some plans for it that you might be able to help me with? I stay in South Africa, and to get plans and kits are extremely difficult around here. So electronic ones would be best.

Theo
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Post  batjac Wed May 28, 2014 11:20 am

MikeM wrote:Mark,

please check your PM box and get back to me..................

thx
-mike

Yes, I am Mark McRiley. Reply sent,

Mark


Last edited by batjac on Wed May 28, 2014 11:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post  batjac Wed May 28, 2014 11:33 am

Theo Kleynhans wrote:Do you maybe have some plans for it that you might be able to help me with? I stay in South Africa, and to get plans and kits are extremely difficult around here. So electronic ones would be best.

Theo

Theo, below is a link to a set of plans for the Little Toot.  You can build it to the plans and have a "correct" Goldberg Little Toot.  I simplified mine by using one of the Brodak mounts.  If you look on the Brodak website you can see how they simplified it even more for a beam mount engine.   If I were to build another one, I would add a little more elevator.  I like the plane, but feel it lacks a little in control authority.

http://www.outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=4337

The Aeronautically Incorrect Mark
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Post  getback Wed May 28, 2014 5:32 pm

Theo , Your planes and builds are looking great, you want more planes to download try these people http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_plans/categories.php?cat_id=71&page=1   some good plans and interesting people there ....be patent with the procedure of getting on though ....Don't wonder to far !! lol!  Getback Mark I couldn't get the outerzone to come up with that link to the toot pic........http://www.outerzone.co.uk/ try this?
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Post  batjac Wed May 28, 2014 6:33 pm

getback wrote:  Mark I couldn't get the outerzone to come up with that link to the toot pic........http://www.outerzone.co.uk/  try this?

Strange. I jut clicked it and it worked for me...

The Strange Mark
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Post  batjac Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:51 pm

Well, at the same time I was taking advantage of the dry spell to paint Brünhilde, I also painted the Older Brothers. I couldn’t think of any really clever ideas on the paint scheme, so I went basic, as I figured a kid from the ‘50s or ‘60s would have done.  The original ’59 design I decided to paint yellow, and the later sportier ’67 version I went with red.  I figured red suited the sportier model.
Older Brothers DSCN1984_zpsbce06533

I think I’m going to use some black trim sheet and make windows for the ’59 version, and then clearcoat it.  It should look okay.  But, here it is, as-is.
Older Brothers DSCN1987_zps63be7c14
Older Brothers DSCN1988_zpsc55234ba
Older Brothers DSCN1989_zpsfb64dd68
Older Brothers DSCN1990_zps091ef0fa


And this one I have to make up some windows for.  I have no clue where to get acetate sheet to make them from, so I guess I’ll have to improvise.
Older Brothers DSCN1991_zps8e77593e
Older Brothers DSCN1996_zpsfe5649d6
Older Brothers DSCN1999_zps76ffdf3c
Older Brothers DSCN2000_zps70d2e340
Older Brothers DSCN2002_zpsa6ba1b92

All that’s left for these two are to do the windows, finish the leadouts, and touch-up a couple of places where my masking wasn’t good enough.  Then finish the landing gear and mount the engines.  Hopefully I can at least get them all assembled, if not test-flown, by next weekend for the Independence Day Fun Fly at Delta Park.

The Sporty Mark
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Post  ian1954 Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:47 am

It seems to me that you have set up a production line. How many builds do you have on the go at the moment?
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