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Norvel 049 Big Mig with CL Tank Mount Empty Norvel 049 Big Mig with CL Tank Mount

Post  GallopingGhostler Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:55 pm

I've been using this engine in my Q-Tee, a 36 inch (914mm) two channel RC parasol plane by Lee Renaud and kitted by Airtronics in the 1980's. The Norvel CL tank mount is weird in that the fuel pickup inside was located about 1/4 inch (6mm) diagonally from the bottom and left edge (looking from the front). This meant that the tank would have about 1/4th amount of fuel left after a run. Also, there was only one vent, from the bottom front of the tank venting with a crook bent forward in hopes to catch some pressure from the propellor slipstream.

When flying QT level, it flew fine, but as soon as I attemped any aerobatics, the engine would die. I then added another vent, drilling a hole in the bottom front of the tank and inserting a nylon tube to the top inside of the tank. This was to allow the tank fuel to be at ambient air pressure.

Norvel 049 Big Mig with CL Tank Mount Q-tee_10

I'll be able to find out if my fix works, when I fly Q-Tee soon.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:58 pm

I just wanted to add that although I am using a Mecoa long glow plug adapter head on this engine, it still puts out more power than a Cox .049 reed valve, pulling Q-Tee with definite authority on a 6x4 Masters plastic prop at my 4,300 feet (1311m) elevation.
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Post  RknRusty Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:07 pm

@GallopingGhostler wrote:I just wanted to add that although I am using a Mecoa long glow plug adapter head on this engine, it still puts out more power than a Cox .049 reed valve, pulling Q-Tee with definite authority on a 6x4 Masters plastic prop at my 4,300 feet (1311m) elevation.
Wow, you're really way up there in altitude, I'd forgotten that. I bet it can really put a cramp in your style.
Rusty at 300'


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Post  andrew Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:18 pm

Many of the tanks shipped originally with two pickup tubes, one for RC and one for CL with a curved end.  The tube was a friction fit and could be pulled from the tank and replaced with the other.  Secondly, because it was a friction fit, the curved tube could be twisted so the end was near the bottom right hand side of the tank.  Your tank is an older version.  The later versions came with a spring loaded vent at the top to relieve pressure when refilling.  The pickup tube on your tank can be twisted to point toward the muffler to ease attaching the pressure tube from the tap in the muffler.
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Post  Cribbs74 Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:20 pm

I've flown there Rusty, several times in fact. The high elevation robs power and your prop selection goes out the window. I imagine if you used a larger than stock venturi it would help. It also causes you to pitch up the prop. I have to learn how to fly again every time I go there.

Anyway George, why not drop the CL tank and just use a 1oz sullivan?

Ron
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Post  GallopingGhostler Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:35 pm

@Cribbs74 wrote:I've flown there Rusty, several times in fact. The high elevation robs power and your prop selection goes out the window. I imagine if you used a larger than stock venturi it would help. It also causes you to pitch up the prop. I have to learn how to fly again every time I go there.
In general, for RC small engines one goes to the larger diameter props. A 6x3 or 6x4 prop will pull better than a 5x4 prop on a reed valve engine. The CL's are a little different story. Because of the thinner air, the planes will fly a little faster, wind affects are less dramatic. Engines lose roughtly 15% power. We are talking about 12.5 psia versus 14.7 at sea level or 0.85 atmospheric, a 15% reduction in air pressure.

Anyway George, why not drop the CL tank and just use a 1oz sullivan? Ron
Problem Ron is Q-Tee is somewhat limited on space in the nose, would require additional mods.

Norvel 049 Big Mig with CL Tank Mount Q-tee_11

Norvel 049 Big Mig with CL Tank Mount Q-tee_12

Norvel 049 Big Mig with CL Tank Mount Q-tee_13
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Post  Cribbs74 Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:39 pm

That looks like a pretty easy mod. Big benefit too. Why does the tank sit so high? What's below it?

Ron
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Post  GallopingGhostler Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:15 pm

@Cribbs74 wrote:That looks like a pretty easy mod. Big benefit too. Why does the tank sit so high? What's below it? Ron
That was a trial fit, was going to fit a Thunder Tiger GP-07 engine instead of the Norvel. The receiver batteries fit up front, there's not enough room for the batteries and tank. Cabin has the receiver and two servos. These are the older Cannon "mini" servos of the 1970's, which are large by today's standards. Because of the short nose, the batteries must reside up front for the plane to balance.

If I were building Q-Tee from scratch, I would select the radio gear components and rearrange to make optimal use of the space. Then I could arrange things so everything would fit and balance. This was simply a repair. I built that plane in 1980 while in college. I Figure-9'd it in the 1990's while living in Gallup, NM. It remained unrepaired until a year ago.

There at the 6,500 feet elevation, I was amazed that Q-Tee would still fly powered by a Cox .049 Black Widow. Q-Tee has decent wing area, it flies on its wings. There I found a 6x3 or 6x4 prop was optimal, and the 5x4 a dog. This was on SIg Champion 25% nitro fuel. This is quite a testament to the power of the pre-Estes Black Widows.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:23 pm

@andrew wrote:Many of the tanks shipped originally with two pickup tubes, one for RC and one for CL with a curved end.  The tube was a friction fit and could be pulled from the tank and replaced with the other.  Secondly, because it was a friction fit, the curved tube could be twisted so the end was near the bottom right hand side of the tank.  Your tank is an older version.  The later versions came with a spring loaded vent at the top to relieve pressure when refilling.  The pickup tube on your tank can be twisted to point toward the muffler to ease attaching the pressure tube from the tap in the muffler.
Thanks for the history lesson, Andrew. I don't recall of a curved tube, I think I bought this from Sig on close out in the 1990's. I removed the muffler, because it robbed some horsepower. Has anyone had luck with Norvel's newer CL tank mount? I've also got Norvel's 1 oz extended RC clunk tank mount. The silicon tubing used does not flex, so clunk doesn't work. I've got it on my Minnie Mambo with a Norvel .061 RC Big Mig on it, but it is set up as rudder only with throttle.
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Post  andrew Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:56 am

George -
I actually did the same thing you're doing with an auxiliary tank -- the NORVEL tank did not give me enough flight time.  I had replaced a BW with a Big Mig C/L engine and tank and ended up leaving the tank mount in place since I needed extra length to maintain a proper CG.  I've used Fuji tanks for some time with the silicone insulation from noodle wire for fuel tubing.  It's very flexible and will work well with most clunks. You might find that a Fuji film can will take less room than the Sullivan tank; it will be lighter without that big rubber plug.

Norvel 049 Big Mig with CL Tank Mount 100_0610

Norvel 049 Big Mig with CL Tank Mount 100_0410
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Post  balogh Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:43 am

@GallopingGhostler wrote:I just wanted to add that although I am using a Mecoa long glow plug adapter head on this engine, it still puts out more power than a Cox .049 reed valve, pulling Q-Tee with definite authority on a 6x4 Masters plastic prop at my 4,300 feet (1311m) elevation.

Just to defend COX, compare the Norvel with a TD049 which is similar in rotary valve carb design to the Norvel, and is 2x stronger than a reed valve COX...let alone the tolerances and general quality...
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Post  GallopingGhostler Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:05 pm

@balogh wrote:
@GallopingGhostler wrote:I just wanted to add that although I am using a Mecoa long glow plug adapter head on this engine, it still puts out more power than a Cox .049 reed valve, pulling Q-Tee with definite authority on a 6x4 Masters plastic prop at my 4,300 feet (1311m) elevation.
Just to defend COX, compare the Norvel with a TD049 which is similar in rotary valve carb design to the Norvel, and is 2x stronger than a reed valve COX...let alone the tolerances and general quality...
Oh, I don't think there is any need to defend Cox nor was I bashing Cox. When the Tee Dee's came out, they were excellent technology and advanced. IMO, the later Schneurle port ABC/ABN technology half-A's with lighter aluminum piston has a slight edge on these as would be expected. Norvel did a good job on this engine, fit and finish is excellent. May be there were problems with the earlier AME engines.  silent

Still, the key to engines is matching up the proper airframe with the proper engine. Any engine will suck mounted on the wrong airframe for which it is not suited. WIth the right airframe, any engine will perform satisfactorily.  Tired w/ Coffee Read

I've never owned a Tee Dee, because the half-A's I flew used the integral tanks and thus I bought Black Widows. I had such a ball with them. Ace R/C was correct when they said simpler was better. I grew up on the Ace Pulse Commander single channel R/C system and later upgraded to their same system but on the old wide band 72 MHz with KRD auxiliary sequential quick blip throttle (hi-med-lo back to hi). I just didn't see a need for a Tee Dee, although one would have been the right ticket for a 42 inch (1067mm) span  Goldberg Half-A Cessna Skylane I built in 1978. It barely lumbered along with a Golden Bee engine. (Lost it in a rain storm, hat sucking updraft carried it away.  Shocked )

Now with collectors involved, the Tee Dee's are going for premium costs on E-Bay even if used. I am not a collector and as thus avoided purchase for this simple reason. Popcorn
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Post  balogh Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:13 pm

Thanks, I fully understand your practical choice for the Norvel..even though I have had very bitter experience with this Russian rubbish (at least my brand new NV Big Mig 061 R/C was, together with an allegedly new, stock piston cylinder spare set I bought with the engine (???) from NV, poorer in fit than any other engine after 100's hours of runtime on them), and I had a long line of posts on this with some NV fans here on CEF, so I would not want rip up the scar tissue on them once again.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:27 pm

@balogh wrote:Thanks, I fully understand your practical choice for the Norvel..even though I have had very bitter experience with this Russian rubbish (at least my brand new NV Big Mig 061 R/C was, together with an allegedly new, stock piston cylinder spare set I bought with the engine (???) from NV, poorer in fit than any other engine after 100's hours of runtime on them), and I had a long line of posts on this with some NV fans here on CEF, so I would not want rip up the scar tissue on them once again.
Sounds like you got a bad lot of engines with faulty parts, of which the spares may have been from the same lot. Stuff happens. Even Fox in their past history had quality control issues. Duke Fox when he was alive, attempted to rectify this to keep the customer happy.

I don't know if the Chinese copy is any better. They are considerably cheaper at $35 a pop. I may buy one of theirs to try it. I'm thinking that with the plain bearing Norvels and ASP's, that maintaining 10% Castor with 20% oil total minimum is probably not a bad practice. I'm doing that. Some may feel this is unnecessary, but we'll see. I haven't put any great mileage on the engine yet.

I can say though that the OS Max .15FP-S engine on my Ringmaster Jr. is impressive, also the Thunder Tiger Magnum .15GP on my Cessna 150 Foam ARF (OS copy, IMO). They still have fine compression. Of course, I am running these on higher content oil with significant Castor.

Of course if one is one of those that like to run 40% nitro in these engines (for speed, combat), might explain their shorter life expectancy. affraid
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Post  balogh Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:39 pm

The funny thing is that both COX and Norvel claimed they hand-selected their piston/cylinder sets to assure the best engine fit. The difference is, that COX really did that evidenced by many of my COX engines with near 100 hours runtime on them, with as-new compression.

The NV I have, and the also new spare set may also have the piston/cylinder hand-selected, but probably after a few gulps of vodka under the belt of the QC guy...if they have any (not vodka, but QC).

But myself having grown up in Eastern Europe under the good old gulash communism and the sole and mandatory choice of Russian induatrial products, am not surprised at all at the infamously poor good old quality of whatever comes from Big Brother. Maybe the Gorbachev vodka is the only exception.


I also have OS Max 4-stroke 056 engines on my larger RC planes, and these have ringed pistons...needless to say, the quality is excellent.
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Post  andrew Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:57 pm

@GallopingGhostler wrote:
I don't know if the Chinese copy is any better. They are considerably cheaper at $35 a pop. I may buy one of theirs to try it.

They are not.

While a few AP's can still be found, I don't believe that they are still in production and parts may become problematic. My experience and that of others who have run the Chinese copies is that you may get a decent one, but in all likelihood, you will get junk -- poor fits, poor compression, short life.
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Post  balogh Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:58 pm

One more thing on Chinese copies of NV or anything...If Norvel is poor, the Chinese copy must be even poorer. Chinese, in Europe, is synonymuos with a truckload of bullsh...t..you guys in the US have not yet been flooded with Chinese products with which we in Europe unfortunately have for long had our experience. Quality in the 21st century has simply gone out of fashion...low cost Chinese suppliers dump the world with goods that are dead on arrival.

As long as I can afford, I will never buy anything made in China or Russia, or whatever made in a "low cost" country (except for the vodka)..low cost does not mean reasonable economy...low cost means rubbish and maximized profit of those who, in the competitive world have decided to relocate manufacturing to countries with unqualified but cheap labor.

I would spend my 35 bucks rather on a second hand engine made by a brandname supplier than on Chinese or Russian crap.

Sorry for my unsolicited review of the merchandise sold from the developing world...
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Post  GallopingGhostler Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:37 pm

@balogh wrote:One more thing on Chinese copies of NV or anything...If Norvel is poor, the Chinese copy must be even poorer. Chinese, in Europe, is synonymuos with a truckload of bullsh...t..you guys in the US have not yet been flooded with Chinese products with which we in Europe unfortunately have for long had our experience. Quality in the 21st century has simply gone out of fashion...low cost Chinese suppliers dump the world with goods that are dead on arrival.

As long as I can afford, I will never buy anything made in China or Russia, or whatever made in a "low cost" country (except for the vodka)..low cost does not mean reasonable economy...low cost means rubbish and maximized profit of those who, in the competitive world have decided to relocate manufacturing to countries with unqualified but cheap labor.
So far, I think what makes the difference is Russian and Chinese products here versus perhaps across the pond are prescreened if you buy from one of the reputable local distributors, who QA the product prior to distribution for sales. I bought the earlier Norvel's from Sig at the time, later from Tower Hobbies. You might say I lucked out from E-Bay, I bought an earlier Russian MDS .46 Pro from a long time modeler who seemed reputable, it works fine. OTOH a friend bought Tower Pro S90 servos from an Ebay vendor really cheap. Out of a half dozen, half the servos were defective, centering kept shifting during operation. Shocked I bought some cheap Chinese Spectra 70 lb test fishing line off E-Bay that apparently wasn't true Spectra. it stretched a foot in 60 and broke at less than half its rated strength. I had one of the hairiest flights with my .35 powered Ringmaster CL, trashed the lines after landing. tongue Next time I will buy brand name US made Spectra.  sunny

On some products I've gathered that it depends on what factory in China did the work. Some are ISO 9001 certified and do good work, others are so-so. I bought 3 Venus brand musical instruments, an Eb sopranino clarinet, Bb soprano sax and a Bb tenor sax. These were of decent quality, good metallurgy, paid roughly $100, $230, and $270 US respectively. The saxes play well in tune. I made a few adjustments, but overall saved considerably what I would have paid for brand named say Yamaha instruments. They appear to be Yamaha copies. The clarinet has a few intonation issues, but it is a plastic beginner instrument that this type defect is normally expected, and I can make it play in tune. Smile  Yet there are some Chinese instruments that I would not touch, because they are of inferior quality. tongue

I would spend my 35 bucks rather on a second hand engine made by a brandname supplier than on Chinese or Russian crap. Sorry for my unsolicited review of the merchandise sold from the developing world...
I got an OS Max 40FP that way off E-Bay in good condition, got a Thunder Tiger Magnum .25GP from a modeler getting out of the hobby in new condition free. So far, I've had good experiences with products from Taiwan. Cool

A couple purchases of defective products can sour one's outlook, this I understand. It's why I bought my daughter a brand name JVC 3-disk CD changer boom box made in Japan for a touch more, after I returned for refund a new DOA out-of-the-box Panasonic 5-disk made in one of the southeastern Asian countries.

I guess the old adage is, Buyer Be Ware! affraid
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