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Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

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Mad Re: Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

Post  Jason_WI on Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:41 pm

pkrankow wrote:

What ever happened to the slow tach race?

Phil

I didn't have the bandwidth available to run it Sad
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Mad Re: Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

Post  Kim on Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:45 pm

Hey guys, I wanted to bump this back to the top so you'd know it's still in the works.

These are the rules for Unlimited and Mouse. If we run a "Stock" class, we'll have to decide precisely "Stock What?" It'll have to be fairly simple to determine the engines' qualification, and an honor system as far as staying with the rules we lock down.

Mark and I have been talking about modifying the Classes, and I am totally OK with any departure the two Forums would like to try. I know that I'm the CD of the race, but I will need discussion here to help nail down the rules for a fair race. I have a lot more time this year, so we can add some classes, with different fuels and props, but still need some guide line agreed to by you guys.

I'm copying this to both the C.E.F. and the .049 Group, and will check back and forth over this next week. I'd like for us to decide on all of it by the middle of the week, and allow me to make a final version of the rules.


TACH RACE 2015 !
January 24th/25th 2015


Fuel and Prop will be the same as last year: Sig 25% Champion Fuel & 5-3 Cox Grey Propeller

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unlimited

Any combination of Cox parts, reed or rear rotor.
Any porting, grinding, chopping, you think will work.
Any head/glow plug or glowhead, RR-1 or Rear rotor type of rear induction systems are fine.
NO front induction TD/Medallion crank/crankcase. NO Cyclon, VA, & Norvel stock or modified to reed induction.
The intent is that these be Cox-based engines like the Black Widow, Sure-Start, Space Hopper, RR-1, Space
Hopper, etc.

___________________________________________________________________________

Mouse 1

Any AMA legal Cox rear reed, with tank. Except no Cyclon conversion.
See AMA rules for more info.

__________________________________________________________________________
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Mad Re: Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

Post  Kim on Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:51 pm

P.S> Forgot to mention that the .020 Unlimited and Stock Classes can be run again. Maybe using Bernie's new props!
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Mad Re: Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

Post  Kim on Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:42 am

Ron and I traded notes yesterday, and it looks like I'll be adding his Tee Dee Tach Race to the Original Tach Race. Figure at this point to run it as an Unlimited, with 35% fuel, a Rusty-Customized prop, and allow .051's in the mix.

Any thoughts?

Also got a note from Rod over on the Collectors Group:

For what it's worth, I'd be in favour of a "Stock" class which would
allow any Cox reed engine which uses any combination of standard Cox
parts which were available when the engines were in production. That
would mean original Cox (or Cox style reproduction) glow head, no
additional porting, although the use of any original production
cylinder/ piston is allowed, no bored out venturis, no KK needles
etc. I think it would have to be done this way so that the CD could
simply check the engine over from the outside and be convinced that it
qualifies. With any class, there needs to be a certain amount of
trust shown. Maybe it could even restrict the cylinder used to one
which was used in the configuration that the engine most resembles.
(i.e. a Golden Bee couldn't run a Tee Dee cylinder & must be fitted
with a No.2 or other single port SPI cylinder). I'm open to other
opinions.

The main aim should be fun and not become too competitive that people
will do anything deceptive to win. I'm not that familiar with "Mouse"
rules but I wonder if it would be hard for the CD to verify that any
engine in this class follows the rules to the letter. Unlimited is
easy, needing only a couple of obvious restrictions such as no Tee
Dees etc.

I'm a novice at this, but I found last time that I didn't really grasp
where my 2 engines fitted within the classes. Because there was no
"Stock" class, I sent a really nice running Golden Bee in for the
Mouse class, but there's no way it could compete with something that's
been modified to the full extent of Mouse rules. I have a fully stock
P-40 which runs upwards of 18,000 rpm. I'd like to think it could
stand a chance of winning a class, but I have no intention of
modifying it from standard in any way.

Rod.
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Mad Re: Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

Post  Kim on Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:48 am

I'm also searching the AMA site for actual description/specs for Mouse Racing Engines, and guess I need more coffee to find it. I'll post it as soon as I find it, or one of you guys have it, please feel free to post it here.
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Mad Re: Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

Post  crankbndr on Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:33 am

Not many rules for engine in Mouse 1,
.0504 CI max
http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2013-2014CLRacing.pdf
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Mad Definition of AMA Class I Mouse Engine Spec's

Post  Paulgibeault on Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:45 pm

HI Guys,

There is a bit of confusion over what an AMA Class I mouse race engine is... IT IS ONLY 3 THINGS:
1. Must be a REED VALVE
2. Must have an INTEGRAL tank.
3. They run on UNLIMITED FUEL.

The rest is completely unlimited. That means I have seen, VA conversions, Norvel conversions, Cyclon conversions, & Trivin & McCollum barstock home-made engines.
Mouse Race mods allowed are: unlimited grinding / porting, everywhere. Unlimited head/ glowplug arrangement. Nothing on a Class I mouse engine needs to be stock or say 'Cox'.  Except for the reed induction part, all AMA CL I mouse engines can be verified to be legal by an external look in about 2 seconds. With 98% of ALL mouse engines being Cox Black Widows (or variants) the reed induction is a given & no need for any further scrutiny...

OK, everybody clear as mud on AMA Class I motors??   Please write in further guys, if I've missed anything...
Alrighty then, with Mouse out of the way let's look at the UNLIMITED CLASS .

In this class we all:
1. MUST USE COX PARTS. but, modifications to them are UNLIMITED.
2. Can use rear reed induction (Thermal Hopper, Space Bug) or RR-1 (drum rotor)
3. Cannot use TeeDee or Medallion crankcase parts.
4. .051 cylinder/piston is allowed.

Given that the Fuel and Prop will be the same as last year: (Sig 25% Champion Fuel & 5-3 Cox Grey Propeller), the ONLY real difference between the two classes is the rear induction part. Bored out Killer Bee backplates (& possibly the large venturi RR-1) will be worth some performance gain, (especially if pressurized). But other than that, you have essentially two UNLIMITED classes, but one with more allowance for better rear induction, & displacement. (.051).

The larger heavier load Cox prop will certainly keep the RPM numbers ~ 1,000 less than the APC. It will also not allow the big venturi engines to rev to their potential. There are arguments to be made for prop & fuel type, but I agree that really, if it's the same for everybody, I won't complain.

I have no comment at the moment about a STOCK CLASS, as that's another topic, & bottom line a bit moot. MY previous winners were (carefully fitted) STOCK engines & so that's showed me many mods are of dubious value even though they seem cool to do... Tuning on the other hand while tedious & frustrating, seems to yield the best results. Good Luck Guys!!

Cheers, Paul  (aka Mr. Mouse )  Smile
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Mad Re: Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

Post  Mark Boesen on Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:57 pm

Hi Paul,

Thanks for posting info, the only exception to the mouse rules is NO: VA conversions, Norvel conversions, Cyclon conversions, & Trivin & McCollum barstock home-made engines.

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Mad Re: Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

Post  Oldenginerod on Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:44 pm

Well it sort of sounds to me like the Mouse class is a little redundant. If you go by the "real" mouse rules, it doesn't have to be a Cox engine. Doesn't that defeat the point? The way I see it, our current two classes (Mouse & Unlimited) are really only separated by integral tank or no tank.
We must stick with Cox, and to be fair we should stick with rear reed or rotor induction, so as I mentioned previously, if we want a class for .049s other than Unlimited, then Stock (or the old Novice) should be considered an option. There's really not much point having engines competing which can qualify for both of the class options.

Rod.
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Mad Re: Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

Post  Kim on Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:43 pm

I would think the reed valve would be the limiting and separating factor between Mouse and Unlimited. It's true that some of the runs might overlap in RPM's, but the top end speeds would seem to have different potentials.

Also, in the "Stock"class, how will we differentiate between the engines. A "Stock" Black Widow would seem to have it all over the stock Babe Bees and Sure Starts.

We can also run any fuel for the Unlimiteds and others, and any prop you guys would like to go to.
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Mad Re: Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

Post  Mark Boesen on Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:53 pm

Oldenginerod wrote:Well it sort of sounds to me like the Mouse class is a little redundant.  If you go by the "real" mouse rules, it doesn't have to be a Cox engine.  Doesn't that defeat the point?  The way I see it, our current two classes (Mouse & Unlimited) are really only separated by integral tank or no tank.  
We must stick with Cox, and to be fair we should stick with rear reed or rotor induction, so as I mentioned previously, if we want a class for .049s other than Unlimited, then Stock (or the old Novice) should be considered an option.  There's really not much point having engines competing which can qualify for both of the class options.

Rod.

Rod we're not going by "real" Mouse (class 1) rules, never have. There is to be no mods to case or conversions, it must be a reed, with Cox case, piston and cylinder.
You're right there isn't much difference between the two classes and I suppose we could join the two if needed, but it really hasn't been much of a problem so far. An RR-1 would be in "Unlimited"
As far as stock goes, we're still kind of up in the air on that and probably need to come to some sort of conclusion. My thought would be stock, as in stock Babe Bee/Golden Bee, period, no dual port cylinder, no swapping of parts, just pure stock. All you can do is play with compression and piston/sleave fit. This is a class aimed at the newer modeler.
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Mad Re: Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

Post  Kim on Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:06 am

OK Guys,
Here we go: How about these for categories for the Tach Race:

A) Unlimited
B) Mouse
C) Stock (totally stock) Babe Bee only
D) .049/.051 Tee Dee
E) .020 Pee Wee
F) .020 Tee Dee

The Unlimiteds have been established previously, but we can change the fuel and prop used (I'll work with any fuel system included, but figure the propeller ought to stay the same across the class).

Same for the Mouse Class, but I'll still work with fuel type and prop..

The Stock Class will go Bebe Bee this time, and run on the new Cox Super Power fuel...if I can get some...with a 5x3 Gray Prop.

The Tee Dee's can run on 35% and an APC Prop if the group wants.

The .020 Tee Dee can also include the Unlimited Custom Engines as before, run on 35% with one of Bernie's new 4x2.5 racing Props.

The Pee Wee's will be the equivalent of the Babe Bee "Stock" class and run on 25% or 35%, also with one of the new 4x2.5 props.

All fuels will be Sig except where noted.

Please comment asap, and we'll lock down the rules so guys can get started on their engines, and I can hit Rusty up for prop work.

Also, please let me know if an electric starter is OK to use just in case I can't get your engine started. It hasn't been an issue before, but figured I'd ask.

Thanks
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Mad Re: Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

Post  fredvon4 on Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:49 am

Thanks for the hard work this requires Kim

I am plenty OK with you using electric finger on any entry I send

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Mad Re: Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

Post  RknRusty on Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:50 am

The electric starter is fine with my engine. I don't think we have any word on whether the new formula of Cox Super Power Fuel will be available at the time of the Tach Race. I hope so because I'll be needing a new quart by then. The new stuff runs great in my Tee Dees.
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Mad Re: Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

Post  Kim on Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:30 pm

Thanks Guys!

The starter is a Sullivan Hornet I've been using for a while, and WILL NOT use it unless I've made a more than reasonable shot at getting a contest engine going.

We'll just revert to Sig fuel if the Cox Super Stuff isn't available by then.
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Mad 2015 Tach Race

Post  Paulgibeault on Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:45 pm

HI Kim,

Contest rules can often end up being controversial, & you'll never get a 100% agreement, but at the end of the day you hope to have more good rules than bad & satisfy the majority. It is refreshing to see the original 2 classes develop into 6 classes. Such forward thinking offers something for everyone & only encourages participation. I appreciate it's more work for the contest director and very much applaud your efforts to volunteer your time & facility.

I have a few other comments...

1. I think there may be merit in running the lighter load 4.75D X 4P APC prop & 35% nitro fuel in the TeeDee Class. This should yield the overall top RPM's of all the engines & ought to satisfy those who really enjoy seeing  " The big numbers".

2. ALL noted fuels are acceptable to me. In light that you are holding a "Tach Race", I would prefer to see Sig 35%, Sig 25%, & Super Power Fuel used in that order. They are all fine, just my preference (for this year) is all.

3. In the STOCK Babe Bee & PeeWee class, I would hope to see stock glow heads used, as alternate heads can really make a noticeable difference.

4.Oh... & one last thing. I won't be entering this class but I feel STOCK Babe Bee ought to be defined. What reed type (if any) & how many cylinder ports.
I'm assuming (& I could be wrong) that the field would prefer to be level, as the two above items can cause a lot of performance difference... It doesn't really matter what you choose, as long as everybody knows up front is all.

5. Use of electric starter. Only as a last resort & use with caution. I doubt you will need it much.

Cheers, Paul (aka Mr. Mouse)


Please comment asap, and we'll lock down the rules so guys can get started on their engines, and I can hit Rusty up for prop work.

Also, please let me know if an electric starter is OK to use just in case I can't get your engine started.  It hasn't been an issue before, but figured I'd ask.

Thanks[/quote]
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Mad Re: Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

Post  Oldenginerod on Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:03 pm

Don't know what happened to my original message 'cos it didn't show up. I think Pauls post may have happened at the same time & bumped it. Anyway, here's what I wrote prior to seeing Paul's post.

Firstly, I'm happy with the use of a starter. Kim's finger can only take so much. I would prefer to see the same fuel and prop used for the pre-exisiting classes, but I'd be happy for Cox Super Power fuel to be used in the stock class and whatever the Tee Dee crew wants is fine by me.
I still think Kim is making it hard for himself. I think someone else should put their hand up to run the Tee Dee classes, just to take some pressure off. I also still believe that the Mouse and Unlimited classes are doubling up- under the rules, any Mouse engine could run in Unlimited and any Unlimited with an integral tank could run in Mouse.
I'm happy to see a Stock class because I've been pushing that barrow, but it looks to me like it's a little restrictive being Babe Bees only. That also opens up a new set of problems for Kim. Does he need to check for original cylinders, pistons & venturi sizes? What cylinder can be used? Single or duel by-pass? Would my P-40 engine qualify? There are an awful lot of variables in Babe Bees from original, let alone what might have been done to them by owners before they landed in our hands.

Rod.
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Mad 2015 Tach Race Stock Babe bee rules

Post  Paulgibeault on Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:41 pm

Hi Rod,

1. I have previously won both AMA Mouse & Unlimited Classes with my stock AMA mouse engines. The ONE THING that the unlimited class offers is the mods for rear induction arrangements which (in my opinion) have not yet fully been exploited. Nobody yet knows how far we can go with the rear induction possibilities which makes it fun to attempt to find out. Rear induction also makes pressurised fuel systems way easier to run. That alone makes it worth having it's own class.

2. The continuing discussion on what constitutes a Stock Babe Bee needs to take place as you'd stated. Yes, there are a number of variables.  On the one hand, a purist might say: " A Babe Bee must have the original copper reed AND single cylinder port AND low compression std. glowhead." OK, that's the purist....but that eliminates the Cox International Babe Bee's.  OUCH!  I rather dislike any rules that discriminate against the C.E.F.'s #1 supporter. OK then, a Cox Int'l Babe Bee uses a mylar reed & a twin slit port cylinder. (The rest, tank & crankcase are the same).

As intriquing as the Stock Babe Bee class is to me... I'd rather leave this event for our new people & not ruin in by entering a special "ringer" engine.
So, at this point I'd rather like to ask Bernie from Cox International what he thinks & give his opinion a heavy weighting. What do you think Bernie? Your thoughts would be much appreciated.

Cheers, Paul (aka Mr. Mouse)



Oldenginerod wrote: Firstly, I'm happy with the use of a starter.  Kim's finger can only take so much.  I would prefer to see the same fuel and prop used for the pre-exisiting classes, but I'd be happy for Cox Super Power fuel to be used in the stock class and whatever the Tee Dee crew wants is fine by me.
I still think Kim is making it hard for himself.  I think someone else should put their hand up to run the Tee Dee classes, just to take some pressure off.  I also still believe that the Mouse and Unlimited classes are doubling up- under the rules, any Mouse engine could run in Unlimited and any Unlimited with an integral tank could run in Mouse.
I'm happy to see a Stock class because I've been pushing that barrow, but it looks to me like it's a little restrictive being Babe Bees only.  That also opens up a new set of problems for Kim.  Does he need to check for original cylinders, pistons & venturi sizes?  What cylinder can be used?  Single or duel by-pass?  Would my P-40 engine qualify?  There are an awful lot of variables in Babe Bees from original, let alone what might have been done to them by owners before they landed in our hands. Rod.
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Mad Re: Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

Post  Mark Boesen on Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:44 pm

The idea for the Stock class is a stock engine (NO MODS) the challenge will be piston/cylinder fit and compression and not what can we do to modify it or skirt the rules. And since the Babe Bee/Golden Bee is the most common that's the direction we're going. Single port engines only.


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Mad Re: Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

Post  Paulgibeault on Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:51 pm

Hi Mark,

EXCELLENT. How about the reed type?

Cheers, Paul

Mark Boesen wrote:The idea for the Stock class is a stock engine (NO MODS) the challenge will be piston/cylinder fit and compression and not what can we do to modify it or skirt the rules. And since the Babe Bee/Golden Bee is the most common that's the direction we're going. Single port engines only.
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Mad Re: Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

Post  Mark Boesen on Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:06 pm

The later Babe Bees did have the twin slit exhaust ports, I'm not sure when the brass reeds went away.

I don't see where is would not be ok:
http://coxengines.ca/cox-.049-engine-babe-bee.html

I do see a problem with trying to regulate heads, do we go with stock or use anything?
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Mad Re: Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

Post  pkrankow on Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:21 pm

Baby bee proposal:

5cc stock fuel tank (darn, my baby stunt bees are eliminated now, I bored the venturis out on both. Most of my non-stunt baby tanks are probably out for the same reason)
unported back plate

A go/nogo gauge should be able to verify this within reason unless screened.

Crank to case fit, and piston to cylinder fit are allowed to be adjusted within reason. Head and head shims may be selected within reason. A brass bushed case would be outside the spirit of the competition, although technically allowable as adjusting the fit of the case.

Phil
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Mad Re: Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

Post  getback on Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:36 pm

WELL I had a write up to//// went cyber ... Stuff , I am good with what ever but thinks wee should uncomplicate, it, too make more people involvement easier I have read soooo much on diff. engines does tend to run together a this point , KIM if you don't have a 1/2 a chicken stick I will send you one with my engine never mind I will just do it!!  THE ELECTRIC FINGER is GOOOD Laughing Eric Babe Bee .049
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Mad Re: Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

Post  Mark Boesen on Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:51 pm

pkrankow wrote:Baby bee proposal:

5cc stock fuel tank (darn, my baby stunt bees are eliminated now, I bored the venturis out on both.  Most of my non-stunt baby tanks are probably out for the same reason)
unported back plate

A go/nogo gauge should be able to verify this within reason unless screened.

Crank to case fit, and piston to cylinder fit are allowed to be adjusted within reason.  Head and head shims may be selected within reason.  A brass bushed case would be outside the spirit of the competition, although technically allowable as adjusting the fit of the case.

Phil

Stock means stock, The way it was made at the factory? I think that's the best way to look at it...was it built with a cylinder shim or a brass bushing?
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Mad Re: Tach Race 2015 Final Wrap-Up

Post  crankbndr on Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:55 am

Looks like the classes are hammered out now, Kim and Mark can set the fuels and props and lets get tuning!

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