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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 4 Empty Re: Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine

Post  Ken Cook Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:29 am

Hello Steve, many of us on the forum here are into different arenas of this hobby. The advice you do receive must clearly have that aspect taken into account. While my above advice works for myself it can really take a negative impact if used for something else. I don't clearly understand what your doing with these engines. Seeing that I'm using mine for air useage, the fuel itself and the load I'm placing on the engine is very different from one who might be using this type of engine for car use. There's certainly a difference when one is using the engines for control line to r/c use. That being said the advice that may be administered might not fit your choice. I personally dislike the use of high or 100% castor fuels. I have my reasons, I do see the use for it in some engines, but if one was to say what is the safest way to use one of these engines I would concur that the castor is better. I mean this from a universal stand point. The protection benefit from the castor as your aware does it's job well. The problem however is the last part of your paragraph where you mention the piston possibly getting stuck in the varnished cylinder.

You can ask 10 different people and receive completely different answers. My experiments with full synthetic is strictly due to the fact that in the colder temps 38 deg and below the fuel doesn't seem to have viscosity problems. Having even 50% castor in the fuel has a very negative impact on the way the fuel flows and seeing I run a lot of engines on bladder pressure I decided to try other means to compensate for this problem. I figured that in my last post to you I would express my findings using a very inexpensive Sure Start as a test bed. I'm not some mad crazed person trying to destroy an engine, just one that is seeking solutions.

Castor oil fuels in general are increasing in price, and also in difficulty locating. I'm well aware of where to find it, my point is that hobby shops at least in this area don't. Rusty mentioned Cool Power. Cool Power is a brand name manufactured by Morgan fuel company. They don't come highly recommended in certain areas of the hobby due to the very low oil contents they offer. I was using a Cool Power product in my experiments which is the 30% heli fuel with 24% oil. This fuel however costs more than the castor fuel I can get specifically for the engine. This fuel is nearing $40 a gallon without shipping here. While this fuel might be working for me currently, I'm also using it in temperatures which are at or below freezing. I have no need to use this in the warmer and hotter months. This may or may not be a factor in regards to why it is currently working for me. I think some of the best advice comes from hands on experience.

Many on here can offer extremely good sound advice. Ken
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 4 Empty Re: Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine

Post  StevenStanleyBayes Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:05 am

Surfer_kris wrote:It sounds to me like you need to read up a bit on model diesel engines in general before moving on with the project. There are many errors in the report regarding the engine operation and the function of the variable compression head.

Model diesel fuel engines have excisted for a long time, well before glow engines came around, and you can rest assured that every possible combination of fuel has been tested already. To keep it short, our model engines are too weak in their construction to run fuels that can be used in full size engines. So the fuel is carefully designed to require a low compression ratio, and hence keep a low load on the internal parts. The level of ether is the the most important part (you'll need around 35%) and then one usually also adds a bit of ignition improver to make the engine run smooth. The ignition improver is a nasty chemical though, so you should keep this level low and there is no gain by using more than 1-2%. The oil level is then set by the construction of the engine, plain bearing engines with iron/steel construction (of piston and cylinder) will require 25-30% of pure castor oil for lubrication. Other engines, such as ball bearing engines with ABC or AAC, construction can use less oil around 20% is good but even down to 15% is possible for competition use (where engine life span is less important).

So if you want to experiment with other fuels, the first thing you need to do is to find an engine that is extra strong in its construction. There is no point in experimenting with other fuel blends on engines that are weak in their construction.

With that in mind, now lets take a look and the cox surestart with the Teflon disc conversion head. This engine has a plain bearing crank and the stock crank (designed for glow use) is too weak for the forces of diesel fuel. So you a need the strongest crank that cox ever made and the Teflon disc has been designed as a fail safe. Should the compression ratio or the temperature of the engine get too high then the seal of the disc will fail by leaking and the engine will stop running. So in essence the Cox engine will only run on fuel that ensure a low compression ratio, plus you need a lot of oil in the fuel for longevity of the engine.

So to take the sure start engine and run it on non-standard fuels for extended periods, just doesn't make much sense. You would either need a much sturdier construction engine (originally designed for diesel fuel) or stick to regular model diesel fuel with the cox engine.


Thanks.

I am not sure what problems there are in the report. In case you say what they are, I will correct them for sure.

Generally, I agree with you and mentioned these things as well. I do not agree the Cox crank is too weak though, although the piston is just connected to a crankshaft pin.

I am aware of the need of Ether, however, I think, BUT I AM NOT SURE, an engine which can reach 160C to ignite ether may as well be able to reach 210C to ignite diesel as well as 225C to ignite naphta. THE PROBLEM IS I AM NOT SURE OF THIS. I only think so, because the internet reports this Cox engine runs on biodiesel which is equal amounts of pump diesel as an ignitor and vegetable oil as a main fuel. On the top there is synthetic oil for oiling purposes.

I also think Cox diesel crankshaft is different than Cox Nitro crankshaft.

I know there have been diesels for a while BUT I am not much too sure how many people have experimented with them because most of the people in model airplane world would be OK to pay the price of the standard fuel as well as because synthetic oils became popular 20 years ago and have been extremely expensive ever since but will not be as expensive in the future when there will only be synthetic oils and not organic for cars and trucks.

I am OK with Cox standard fuel. However, I will be happier to sacrifice some parameters to some extend in order to get inexpensive fuel.

In case the compression for alternative fuels have to be higher, the Teflon gasket and the engine may as well work well but at LOW RPM and RICH MIXTURE. Obviously, for model airplanes, this is inacceptable. Thus, what seems to be dangerous for model airplanes may be perfectly well for this application.

This is also why I think there have not been very many experiments and I need the help from the forum : some may have found other fuels BUT disregarded them ( and they were right ) because other fuels may blow their engines up when used on model airplane where huge RPM and power are necessary.
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Post  anm2 Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:10 am

If this has already been covered then my apologies. I see that you are waiting for a new piston for your engine. If you are going to run a cox sure start engine using a diesel head, you should also purchase a Killer Crank from Davis Diesel. The greater torque generated by a diesel could snap the crankshaft. I have actually run a diesel on a regular crankshaft and didn't have any problems. WIth that said, I have also broken a crankshaft too. It would be a prudent step to put in the stronger crankshaft. With regard to various .049 diesel fuel, I am not aware of many choices. I have only used Davis Diesel, and although I have seen other diesel fuels on line, none have been explicitly designed for .049 (other than Davise Diesel). My understanding is the .049 fuels are a different mixture than the larger engine fuels. Hope this helps.

In truth, I can't see the utility of a .049 diesel engine generator. Too loud if you ask me. Don't get me wrong, it would be really cool, but it sounds like you are doing this as a business venture. Good luck. Andy
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Post  StevenStanleyBayes Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:20 pm

anm2 wrote:If this has already been covered then my apologies.  I see that you are waiting for a new piston for your engine.  If you are going to run a cox sure start engine using a diesel head, you should also purchase a Killer Crank from Davis Diesel.  The greater torque generated by a diesel could snap the crankshaft.  I have actually run a diesel on a regular crankshaft and didn't have any problems.  WIth that said, I have also broken a crankshaft too.  It would be a prudent step to put in the stronger crankshaft.  With regard to various .049 diesel fuel, I am not aware of many choices.  I have only used Davis Diesel, and although I have seen other diesel fuels on line, none have been explicitly designed for .049 (other than Davise Diesel).  My understanding is the .049 fuels are a different mixture than the larger engine fuels.  Hope this helps.  

In truth, I can't see the utility of a .049 diesel engine generator.  Too loud if you ask me.  Don't get me wrong, it would be really cool, but it sounds like you are doing this as a business venture.  Good luck.  Andy


Thank you for the information on the crankshaft and Davis Diesel. You also do not need to apologise as there is no reason. The more inputs I get the better even when covered.

In regards to the third party crankshaft, I will keep this in consideration. For now, I am afraid to use this not because of a technical reason but because of a pure psychological reason : I am afraid to use anything else but Cox original. This is because I first touched an RC engine between Christmas and New Year when I go this and I have run and experimented with such for a few starts only as opposed to most people in this forum who have been running RC engines for 20 years consistently. I have only seen model planes on the fly, high in the sky as well as how they land and only once around 35 years ago.

Davis Diesel is not available in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada and is either extremely expensive or not allowed to be shipped from the US to Canada. This is because Canada Post does not allow any flammable liquids or materials regardless whether the company has a license and special packaging or not. No exceptions even in a sealed titanium alloy container.

I am able and happy to use Cox recommended kerosene based fuel. I am only unhappy with the price here. In other countries, outside of North America, the prices are lower.

I am the only one to blame for the broken Cox piston : I attempted to reset this with a rubber mallet which bounced back even when hammered heavily. Thus, I took a normal hammer with which I was supposed to only gently " pet " the piston reset tool. However, because of the unsuccessful attempt with the rubber mallet, I started to hammer with the HEAVY and BIG steel hammer like a construction worker on Friday evening 1 hour before leaving. Thus, I fixed the piston rod to the piston. I tried to move the piston rod around with a lot of force. The piston rod did not bend nor brake. I hammered the periphery of the piston while rotating because the piston got enlarged after the heavy banging. Then, I attempted to pull the rod out with two sets of pliers and I succeeded but, greedy for more, I continued to pull with all the force I have bending the piston rod while pulling using the leverage of the two sets of pliers and they were large. After applying all force I have, the piston rod snapped at the joint. This cannot happen when normally used because the piston is mainly pushed down by the combustion and not pulled.

In the application, I would mainly run the engine at lower RPM than the people in this forum with rich mixture and low compression. I think the crankcase pin should be OK for this application.

When run with Cox recommended fuel, kerosene based, the engine runs very smoothly and quietly even without a muffler. Like cutting through butter with a hot knife. HOWEVER, although I have yet not run the engine with a muffler, I do have one and I do intend to use as a normal way to run the engine for the application. I hope I will be able to start and run the engine and post a video with sound although there may not be any sound reference to compare.

Some people say when run with muffler, this engine may compare to a vacuum cleaner in noise. This is at high RPM.

Most people in this forum have probably never run the engines with mufflers because this lowers the performance and these people need performance. I don't. I hope a video with the Cox muffler would be interesting for the people in this forum.

There is a way for even more silencing : One can weld / solder a nipple on the Cox muffler and attach a Copper pipe. One can seal the Copper pipe. Then one can drill holes along the pipe. More advanced fabricator can even put this pipe into another pipe with only one exit. I think, one can use the same approach gun smiths use to make a suppressor to make a muffler for the engine. THIS IS NOT APPLICABLE FOR MODELLERS.

The project may not have a commercial application because of the difficult use. People want to either turn an ignition key ( they don't want even this now ) or press a button or pull a starter rope and nothing else. Also they don't want to pay for fuel.

Another reason : in order for this project to have a commercial success, parts must be purchased in bulk ( thousands or, even, tens of thousands ) to be extremely inexpensive. No one would want to invest $100 000 for something which not very many people would purchase.

I want to add to this, though, an electronic system ( best microcontroller based ) can easily be designed for automatic control of the output as per load and desired voltage. Such a system can control the air valve ( throttle ), the fuel needle valve and the compression easily with tiny and inexpensive step motors. Such a system may as well cost less than $10 to make in bulk. Must be made in a company environment as well as the whole device to be tiny and user friendly.

However : how many people do need any generator or any solar panel at all? Not very many. Thus, this is a catch 22 : in order to get SOME people to purchase such a device one has to make this and to be attractive and inexpensive. In order to make this one needs to be sure people would purchase.

This is why, a mini generator made of grass trimmer engine may go a longer way. However, this is a more standard and bigger solution. This is why I want to make this generator and to show this generator to the world. I have realised there are others made. For now, I do not have any expectations other than I want to show the world what I have made to ask the world for their imagination for what more can be done and then I don't care. Then others would decide what to do. I certainly would not spend a penny more. Certain exceptions apply. I may make another one for others to have and show.

The reason I would not spend a penny must not look like I say something against the project but I want to express a principle : I would not even spend a penny on digging a hole even in case someone says there is gold there for sure.
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 4 Empty Re: Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine

Post  StevenStanleyBayes Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:35 pm

Ken Cook wrote:          Hello Steve, many of us on the forum here are into different arenas of this hobby. The advice you do receive must clearly have that aspect taken into account. While my above advice works for myself it can really take a negative impact if used for something else. I don't clearly understand what your doing with these engines. Seeing that I'm using mine for air useage, the fuel itself and the load I'm placing on the engine is very different from one who might be using this type of engine for car use. There's certainly a difference when one is using the engines for control line to r/c use. That being said the advice that may be administered might not fit your choice. I personally dislike the use of high or 100% castor fuels. I have my reasons, I do see the use for it in some engines, but if one was to say what is the safest way to use one of these engines I would concur that the castor is better. I mean this from a universal stand point. The protection benefit from the castor as your aware does it's job well. The problem however is the last part of your paragraph where you mention the piston possibly getting stuck in the varnished cylinder.

You can ask 10 different people and receive completely different answers. My experiments with full synthetic is strictly due to the fact that in the colder temps 38 deg and below the fuel doesn't seem to have viscosity problems. Having even 50% castor in the fuel has a very negative impact on the way the fuel flows and seeing I run a lot of engines on bladder pressure I decided to try other means to compensate for this problem. I figured that in my last post to you I would express my findings using a very inexpensive Sure Start as a test bed. I'm not some mad crazed person trying to destroy an engine, just one that is seeking solutions.

Castor oil fuels in general are increasing in price, and also in difficulty locating. I'm well aware of where to find it, my point is that hobby shops at least in this area don't. Rusty mentioned Cool Power. Cool Power is a brand name manufactured by Morgan fuel company. They don't come highly recommended in certain areas of the hobby due to the very low oil contents they offer. I was using a Cool Power product in my experiments which is the 30% heli fuel with 24% oil. This fuel however costs more than the castor fuel I can get specifically for the engine. This fuel is nearing $40 a gallon without shipping here. While this fuel might be working for me currently, I'm also using it in temperatures which are at or below freezing. I have no need to use this in the warmer and hotter months. This may or may not be a factor in regards to why it is currently working for me. I think some of the best advice comes from hands on experience.

Many on here can offer extremely good sound advice. Ken


Thanks for your reply.

THE MOST IMPORTANT IS TO ASK YOU WHAT HELI FUEL IS. Do you know the components and percentages?

Another IMPORTANT question : Although you have clearly stated you use the engine in sub zero temperatures : WHAT KIND OF SYNTHETIC OILS have you used. Can you list a few brands and models. I will be happy to look into them in the future when I may or may not wish to experiment with fuels.

The rest here are comments which are not important :

I have never said you want to damage Cox engines, etcetera. I have thanked you for your previous message which is very useful.

I try to always say what the standard Cox fuel is because I do not want to mislead other people outside of the forum who may read the post and decide to use other fuels when the engines are brand new and not broken in. In this case a stupid “ disclaimer “ is very useful I think and in most cases not.

As far as Castor Oil is concerned :

Advantages : High Temperature of burning, clinging to metal in a form of thin film, high viscosity and density.

Disadvantages : in occasions when the engine runs very hot with extremely lean mixture in huge amounts and high RPM and load, Castor Oil may. When organic materials ( such as Castor Oil ) burn, they deposit Carbon ( varnish, burr ). Castor Oil clings and films over metal but not over Carbon. Carbon deposits, even in huge amounts ) cannot protect rotating parts because they get easily filed off of there. The linear movement of the piston may not file the Carbon off. Thus, Carbon deposits AT HUGE AMOUNTS will get the piston stuck and will increase friction and temperature of the cylinder. Hopefully, such amounts will not happen. This problem is well known with cars, even though and because and with or without, they have rings ( rings to some extent help deburr the carbon to another some extent get stuck more easily in scratches ). In engines without rings, the huge area of the piston walls will get easily stuck in a cylinder with huge amounts of Carbon deposits which deposit faster than they can be filed off. Thus, the engine must not be run at high temperatures.

As with any other engine : the thicker the oil the safer to the engine and the lower the performance at huge RPM, load and power. This is why you and some modellers do not like Castor Oil. Because you want huge RPM, huge power at these huge RPM. I do not.

Castor Oil does not dissolve very well EVEN in Ether at low temperatures. How do I know this : I put Castor Oil in a glass and squeeze freezing Ether out of a John Deere can to the walls of the glass. I look at the glass near a light bulb. At the beginning, when the temperature is low, I see flakes ( of Castor Oil ) and layers of Castor Oil floating around. With the increase of the Ether and Castor Oil mixture temperature towards the ambient ( room ) temperature, flakes and layers start to disappear. Shaking helps a lot.

Internet says Castor Oil does nor dissolve well in anything except Ether. I think, kerosene, diesel and methanol are such strong dissolvers so I had the skin of the hands falling when I was washing trucks with diesel to make them shine. These also do dissolve car paint, hence washing has to be done with tiny amounts only, almost dry cloths. Diesel will also dissolve thick and strong winter boots leather this is why dry shoe shine must be disposed off or melted with temperature and never dissolved with diesel. This is why I think Kerosene can dissolve Castor Oil AFTER A LONG WHILE AND AFTER A LOT OF SHAKING.

In your case, running in sub zero temperatures, you may not have any other choice but go for Synthetics. However, you may wish to try these : in case you fly horizontally only, you can put the tank higher than the crankcase to use gravity as a pump. I doubt there are counterweight eccentrics which would turn the tank higher than the engine when the engine is upside down because such would add another more than 30g of weight. You can premix the fuel at home and put in a metallic thermos kept in your car at room temperature until you get to the field. You can bring another thermos with hot water, tea or coffee and dunk a jar of fuel into the hot water before you put this into the tank. Make sure ether does not evaporate, do not keep the fuel into hot water for a long while. Because you are running at huge RPM’s the temperature from your engine may slow down the decrease of the temperature of the fuel tank. In case you have an Aluminium 5cc Cox tank built into the engine, this may stay at higher temperature too.

The problem with Synthetic Oil is the inexpensive ones burn at low temperature. You, most likely, burn lean mixture to get your RPM high. This increases the temperature of the engine and may burn some synthetic oils. Some synthetic oils burn at 285C.

Here is what I think BUT I may be wrong on the temperature of burning of fuels as such without consideration or lean or rich mixture, just the chemical properties :

Ether autoignites at 160C. Then, the authoignited ether flame ignites PART of the main fuel. Another part of the main fuel may autoignite from the compression at high temperature of the cylinder. This is why Cox likes ether which ignites at only 160C raised by the compression and then Cox likes main fuel which has a huge autoignition temperature yet a very low flame ignition temperature. Such main fuel is Methanol which flame ignites at 11C and autoignites at 470C. In comparison, kerosene flame ignites at 65C and autoignites at 295C which makes kerosene a less desirable fuel. Thus, with methanol, the engine is supposed to run at lower temperatures, around 160C.

In general, RC diesel engines are not diesel engines but spark engines, just like gasoline engines. This is because the same way as a spark from an electric spark plug ignites the gasoline and air mixture in a car, a “ spark “ from the low power ether ignites the high power main fluid ( methanol ).

With kerosene, because of the low autoignition temperature, some part of kerosene may diesel ignite because of the compression and thus increase the engine temperature.

Biodiesel is a combination of diesel and spark engine : diesel autoignites at 210C from compression and then flame ignites vegetable oil. Diesel does provide not only spark but some power as diesel is much more powerful than ether. Vegetable oil provides more power. Because Castor Oil does not dissolve in diesel very well ( must wait and shake for a long while ) and because Castor Oil is thick as well as vegetable oil, putting Castor Oil in biodiesel would make the fuel so thick so the fuel cannot get through the 1.8mm diameter fuel line and the tiny intake holes and intake pipes not even through the tiny tank nipple. This is why, I am afraid very much, the biodieselers MAY ( hopefuly they do not ) modify their engines ( holes, intakes, nipples ) and put a wide fuel line as well as a fuel pump along with tank high up. I do NOT want to modify the engine because I do not know the amounts and do not want to destroy the engine and do not want to spend the effort for experiments in out of laboratory environment.

THIS IS WHY I HAVE BEEN BEGGING FOR HELP WITH ALTERNATIVE FUELS AND HAVE BEEN HAPPY TO RECEIVE SOME.

Although some alternative fuels may be extremely destructive to modellers, they will not be in the case of this project because I intend to run the engine at much lower RPM and I do not care whether I would get as much power or not. The most important is the longevity and reliability, hence low RPM, rich retarded ignition air to fuel mixture, low compression. Hence, the best fuel in this case would be 33% Castor Oil, 40% Ether, 23% Methanol ( or 20% Methanol, 3% Cetane Booster ). Or the Cox standard methanol formula of : 21% Ether, 49% Methanol, 30% Castor Oil.

However :

I cannot find methanol. I can easily find kerosene.

Ether is very expensive and available but difficult to get to the shop to get some.

Castor Oil is expensive.

These are the problems.

Having said this, in some countries methanol is almost for free as this is considered garbage of many industries and totally useless. Castor Oil is almost for free because this is sold in pharmacies as laxative ( Latin Name : Ricinus Communis, pronounced in Latin Ritsinus Communis ). Ether is also inexpensive and sold in pharmacies as a relaxation medication for nervousness.

I want to also share an impression : when I run the engine with standard Cox fuel for kerosene : 40% Ether, 35% Kerosene, 25% Castor Oil or 39% Ether, 34% Kerosene, 24% Castor Oil, 3% Cetane Booster, even without a muffler, I get the impression the engine runs so oily and smoothly so this looks like cutting butter with a hot knife. I have not been able to run the engine with another fuel.

This is why, I am happy the project would be OK to run on Cox recommended fuel in these countries but not in North America. Even, I have had a reply on this forum from the UK where the price of standard fuel is a fraction of the price in North America. In other countries is even less expensive.

A specific problem in Canada but not in the USA is the government seem to silently and not so silently count ether as a street drug. Ether has been used as an anaesthetic before. I think the government of Canada miscalculates amounts because, I think, only huge amounts of ether can cause the “ getting high “ effect, also, ether may have other reflections on human health being a petrol derived product AFTER A LONG USE AND HUGE AMOUNT ABUSE FOR A LONG WHILE. This is why I think normal people should not suffer just because of miscalculations and not taking amounts into consideration when proclaiming what can and cannot be used as a street drug.

In addition, people who use drugs report on the internet sniffing ether and acetone ( glue ) does not get them high as they are probably “ immune “ to these because they use much more powerful drugs as marijuana, crystal cocaine, cocaine, etcetera.

I want to ask another question, though : how come anyone can purchase 100% Acetone and glue at most any shop around and cannot purchase Ether? I have heard of many people all over the world and in countries where acetone AND ether are freely available to claim they sniff acetone and I have never heard of any drug user to have ever claimed of drinking or sniffing ether.

In addition, there was a post on the internet where a person said, when a student, this person damped a towel in ether and covered the nose and mouth with this ether damped towel in an attempt to get high and : NOTHING HAPPENED, the person did not get high, not even slightly.
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 4 Empty Re: Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine

Post  Surfer_kris Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:54 pm

Diesel fuel is hard to get all over the world now, as people seem to abuse the ingredients for other purposes...
So not only is the fuel expensive it is also very hard to get. I only know of one single source in our country and shipping from other countries is not possible.

I think there is a great fun factor in adding a generator to and engine, but that's about it. I would like to have one though that could charge the RX battery while flying. Smile

As a commercial power source, I have to say that the market must be very close to zero. I run diesel engines regularly but cannot imaging any time when I would like to use one only as a generator. I do run my engines with a muffler, and yes they are quite compared to glow engines but that is mainly at reduced throttle settings. At higher settings you also have intake noise and vibrations, a modern hoover is whisper in comparison.

The exhaust fumes are quite toxic and the smell is something only a mother could love. After a day of flying I usually have to put all my clothes in the washer, that's the only way to get rid of the odour...
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Post  Surfer_kris Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:09 pm

Just checked the price of fuel here. I bought 2 liters of ready made fuel last autumn and it cost me about $75.
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Post  ian1954 Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:38 pm

Kris - two litres is about $24 here but I am not a mother and I love the smell. Fresh and burnt! It is a wonderful aroma, it lingers longer and the rags used to clean up afterwards make good fire lighters!

If you noticed in my degumming video  - I run engines in doors when it is cold, wet or windy. I do leave the door open though.

Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 4 Diesel10

Who needs air fesheners?

Anyway - back to diesel fuel.

Cetane boosters are usually ethylhexyl nitrate whereas the ignition improver for model diesel fuel was traditionally amyl nitrate. It is now isopropyl nitrate as it is easier to get hold of even though they are alkyds that are abused. It is unusual to need more than 2% of this in model diesel fuel there is little advantage adding more.

Ether is a general term for a group of chemicals - but model fuel uses dietheyl ether (a solvent and anesthetic). The sale of this is restricted because it is used in the manufacture of illegal drugs.

The paraffin is known as liquid or medicinal paraffin. It is clear and not the fuel oil purchased from hardware stores and garages.

Again the castor oil in quality model fuel is a first pressing. Castor oil that is first pressed, filtered and then degummed has the unique lubricating properties of castor without the excessive buildup and carbon.

Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 4 Diesel11

Model diesel fuel doesn't depend on really accurate mixes and I sometimes use heating grade paraffin.

But being heavily influenced by television advertising as a child - I would only use Esso Blue and not the lower grades one could buy.



I know quite a few chaps who have been tempted by "biodiesel" mixes and they have got the engines to run but not perform. They have got the engine warmed up and then switched to the "biodiesel" but found that the engine will "run" for a while but is not responsive and slowly peters out to a stop. It is difficult to maintain a consistent performance particularly tick over.

Back to castor oil. I only uses castor oil for lubricant in my diesel engines. Glow engines I am not fussy and I have a stock of good quality synthetic oil from the various motorbikes I have had. Synthetic certainly makes a cleaner exhaust. I use only castor as it is recommend by the engine manufactures. Even Ronald recommends it for his tiny diesels!

However, a lot must depend on the quality. Ken has difficulty in cold weather with castor oil - I don't with the stuff I use. It doesn't thicken up but the lowest temperature I have ever started a diesel was -8 deg C and I had to alter the compression significantly. I have no experience with glow engines at these temperatures.

Likewise, I have had no issues whatsoever mixing this castor oil in diethyl ether. Add it, shake it and job done. I believe the genuineness of the comments I have read and the personal experiences but I have not experienced this myself and have been mixing diesel fuel for many years.

Now back to engines. The Cox Sure start is not the toughest engine. I admire this project but I have bust many Cox 049s dieselising them. Crankshaft webs and con rods. Always through flooding.

I think the project is to be admired - using a brushless motor and escape to start to motor followed by 3 phase rectifiers (or whatever electrickery) to then use the motor as a generator.

On a diesel as small and delicate as this an electric starter is a recipe for disaster. Small diesels flood easily and hydraulic lock so some care has to be taken here.

Small diesels can be a little temperamental and do not often like slow running for long periods. They cool down, compression changes and stops them.

Larger diesels don't have this problem and are much more responsive to the throttle.

Here are two videos of larger diesels. The first one a cold weather start. They both show the slow tick over possible.





Especially for Roddie - we British don't like gloves but even I wouldn't like getting clouted by a 16x9 propeller on a .60 engine!
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Post  StevenStanleyBayes Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:39 pm

Surfer_kris wrote:Diesel fuel is hard to get all over the world now, as people seem to abuse the ingredients for other purposes...
So not only is the fuel expensive it is also very hard to get. I only know of one single source in our country and shipping from other countries is not possible.

I think there is a great fun factor in adding a generator to and engine, but that's about it. I would like to have one though that could charge the RX battery while flying. Smile

As a commercial power source, I have to say that the market must be very close to zero. I run diesel engines regularly but cannot imaging any time when I would like to use one only as a generator. I do run my engines with a muffler, and yes they are quite compared to glow engines but that is mainly at reduced throttle settings. At higher settings you also have intake noise and vibrations, a modern hoover is whisper in comparison.

The exhaust fumes are quite toxic and the smell is something only a mother could love. After a day of flying I usually have to put all my clothes in the washer, that's the only way to get rid of the odour...


The commercial value of the generator is very high IN CASE A COMPANY MAKES THEM AND NOT A PERSON. This is because the company can make the generator very tiny and compact as well as light. The size of the generator can be made to even fit in a very large pocket. I have a US analogue style camo military jacket with very large pockets and, when company made, the whole generator, even with a tank, can fit in this pocket. Obviously, the size of the tank cannot be saved ( unless the fuel is compressed : ) ).

The generator is supposed to run at very low RPM. High RPM are up to the user and the dynamo.

I have run the engine without a muffler and the engine is not as loud. Certainly quieter than a grass trimmer, loan mower, chain saw and others with mini engines. As I have said more silencing can be achieved when a gun suppressor style secondary muffler is used. Again, this best be made in a company and not by a person. I only make the prototype which you all will be informed of. I guess, when you see the prototype, you will have to imagine what a real company can do.

Vibrations can easily be dealt with by using rubber tampons similar to what the car engines have but much tinier or with tiny chock absorber style attachments.

No one is expected to put this engine next to their pillows and inside their tents.

One of the best feature of the engine is, when used with standard Cox Methanol fuel formula AND WITHOUT CETANE BOOSTER, all components are not dangerous. Methanol ( which can be substituted with Ethanol which is 100% spirits which is vodka ) is not dangerous unless swollen. Alcohol is not dangerous even when drunk as we all know. Ether is not dangerous when burning and is even not dangerous when swollen in not large amounts. Ether was used as a medical anaesthetics and relaxation drug. The safest of all ( along with alcohol ) is Castor Oil which is sold in any pharmacy as a laxative. Will not have the same effect when spat away from the engine into the ambient which is what is supposed to be done, I. e., no need for camo toilet paper when in the woods. : )

Some people have posted the smell of the diesel fuel as one of the most attractive feature. I disagree. However, I think but I am not sure, Ether is also used in the perfume industry.

I am not saying this is the perfect and the best generator. I just say this is a good solution. Again, best be made by a company.

Except the fuel, the other problem for a commercial device is people do not want to spring start and to have three controls. Although there are third party carburetors for these engines, I seem to like the full freedom the three independent controls offer. Although they can be simplified in a simple manual, people do not like to read even 1 page manuals. A company can put a carburetor to give only one control along with the compression which will be the second and will not be used as much, just, maybe, for start and battery and starter motor, even a fuel pump, a car without wheels, but this may be more expensive.

The sky is the limit as long as the company made generator is around $50 and less than $100 retail.

The difficult fuel which people would not want to purchase and or mix is the other problem. People want to just go to the pump and get fuel in a tube and this is all.

Again, as I have been saying, I want only to make this generator and show to the world. I have recently realised there are others who have made such, some of them with bigger engines. Then, whoever wants to do whatever they want.


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Post  StevenStanleyBayes Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:40 pm

!


Last edited by StevenStanleyBayes on Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  StevenStanleyBayes Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:41 pm

Surfer_kris wrote:Just checked the price of fuel here. I bought 2 liters of ready made fuel last autumn and it cost me about $75.


Sounds true and bad, I agree.
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Post  StevenStanleyBayes Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:41 pm

!
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Post  StevenStanleyBayes Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:16 pm

ian1954 wrote:Kris - two litres is about $24 here but I am not a mother and I love the smell. Fresh and burnt! It is a wonderful aroma, it lingers longer and the rags used to clean up afterwards make good fire lighters!

If you noticed in my degumming video  - I run engines in doors when it is cold, wet or windy. I do leave the door open though.



Who needs air fesheners?

Anyway - back to diesel fuel.

Cetane boosters are usually ethylhexyl nitrate whereas the ignition improver for model diesel fuel was traditionally amyl nitrate. It is now isopropyl nitrate as it is easier to get hold of even though they are alkyds that are abused. It is unusual to need more than 2% of this in model diesel fuel there is little advantage adding more.

Ether is a general term for a group of chemicals - but model fuel uses dietheyl ether (a solvent and anesthetic). The sale of this is restricted because it is used in the manufacture of illegal drugs.

The paraffin is known as liquid or medicinal paraffin. It is clear and not the fuel oil purchased from hardware stores and garages.

Again the castor oil in quality model fuel is a first pressing. Castor oil that is first pressed, filtered and then degummed has the unique lubricating properties of castor without the excessive buildup and carbon.


Model diesel fuel doesn't depend on really accurate mixes and I sometimes use heating grade paraffin.

But being heavily influenced by television advertising as a child - I would only use Esso Blue and not the lower grades one could buy.



I know quite a few chaps who have been tempted by "biodiesel" mixes and they have got the engines to run but not perform. They have got the engine warmed up and then switched to the "biodiesel" but found that the engine will "run" for a while but is not responsive and slowly peters out to a stop. It is difficult to maintain a consistent performance particularly tick over.

Back to castor oil. I only uses castor oil for lubricant in my diesel engines. Glow engines I am not fussy and I have a stock of good quality synthetic oil from the various motorbikes I have had. Synthetic certainly makes a cleaner exhaust. I use only castor as it is recommend by the engine manufactures. Even Ronald recommends it for his tiny diesels!

However, a lot must depend on the quality. Ken has difficulty in cold weather with castor oil - I don't with the stuff I use. It doesn't thicken up but the lowest temperature I have ever started a diesel was -8 deg C and I had to alter the compression significantly. I have no experience with glow engines at these temperatures.

Likewise, I have had no issues whatsoever mixing this castor oil in diethyl ether. Add it, shake it and job done. I believe the genuineness of the comments I have read and the personal experiences but I have not experienced this myself and have been mixing diesel fuel for many years.

Now back to engines. The Cox Sure start is not the toughest engine. I admire this project but I have bust many Cox 049s dieselising them. Crankshaft webs and con rods. Always through flooding.

I think the project is to be admired - using a brushless motor and escape to start to motor followed by 3 phase rectifiers (or whatever electrickery) to then use the motor as a generator.

On a diesel as small and delicate as this an electric starter is a recipe for disaster. Small diesels flood easily and hydraulic lock so some care has to be taken here.

Small diesels can be a little temperamental and do not often like slow running for long periods. They cool down, compression changes and stops them.

Larger diesels don't have this problem and are much more responsive to the throttle.

Here are two videos of larger diesels. The first one a cold weather start. They both show the slow tick over possible.


Especially for Roddie - we British don't like gloves but even I wouldn't like getting clouted by a 16x9 propeller on a .60 engine!


THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR EXCELLENT RESPONSE AND INFORMATION!

In the UK, the prise of the fuel and all of the components is extremely inexpensive. In North America : extremely expensive. The Cox specified Kerosene Formula would be $30 per litre. Methanol is not sold in the general purpose stores. Some claim the shops which sell paint sell 100% or 99% Methanol for paint thinner. I have not been able to find such but I have not tried Sherwin Williams. Home Depot and Canadian Tire sell paints and thinners but not Methanol. Have not tried Walmart.

I do not know what the word Paraffin is used for but, I guess, being posted here the word is used for Kerosene.

The Cetane Booster I use contains 2 EthylExyl Nitrate and Xylene. Seems to work well with Kerosene. I do thank you very much for specifying Amyl Nitrate and Isopropyl Nitrate are better for Kerosene. The one I use is extremely poisonous and best not to be used indoors regardless of the tiny amount in the fuel. I also use the engine indoors and I open the Windows to ventilate well.

When I saw your big bottle of Ether, I wanted to get a ticket to the UK. This is a treasure not sold in Canada. Sold only as John Deere Starter Fluid. This contains Diethyl Ether.

The information on clear medicinal Paraffin is great and thank you. I do not think this is sold here.

The information Castor Oil must be FIRST PRESSED is great and I also thank you. Cox sells Castor Oil and I have been using this. I am not sure whether this is first pressed but I think so. I have also purchased medicinal Castor oil from the pharmacy.

I continue to say, however, regardless whether first pressed or not, every organic material will leave Carbon deposits when burned hence Castor Oil better not to be burned, i. e. the engine must not be overheated. I think this cannot be overcome. I thank you for the information first pressed Castor Oil leaves much less Carbon deposits.

I suspected biodiesel will require a standard fuel start and heating up the engine and thank you for clarifying your experience. Thus, a good idea is to have two Cox tanks and one big tank : one only for start up the other, for secondary run and biodiesel and the big tank for biodiesel storage. The big tank would have a needle valve to stop the fuel and will be connected to the second Cox tank. Initially, the two Cox tanks would be filled with standard fuel and the valve between the big tank and the second tank will be closed. The engine would start with Cox fuel and, after burning will switch to the second tank and continue to run with standard fuel. Nearly after burning, the valve will be opened and biodiesel will flow from the big tank to the second tank for the engine to continue on biodiesel. The trick is : the first tank is always nice and clean. In case the engine stops, can be restarted again on the first tank and switched to whatever there is in the second.

The liquid which comes from the John Deere container ( the Ether ) is very cold. I continue to claim I have observed extremely difficult dissolving of Castor Oil into this freezing Ether. I continue to claim the freezing Ether cannot dissolve Castor Oil well and has to be waited to reach near room temperatures and shaken well. I will be happy to be wrong.

I have been abusing the engine on electric drill and even making pure diesel combustions while spinning. The engine seems to be strong enough for the purpose of the generator mainly when taken into account the engine will be run on low RPM.

When the engine gets flooded, remove fully the compression screw, fully close the fuel needle valve and fully open the air valve ( throttle ). Then do around 32 spring starts. All the fuel ( which contains oil and is thicker ) will be blown off through the exhaust as well as through the open hole of the compression screw. Then the engine is better than new because is oiled.!

The project is simple but may have a simple yet good electronics with main IC : MAX4210 : a power monitoring IC based on multiplication by using the logarithmic VI function of the diode which is a very inaccurate method but Maxim have been able to trim the IC to 1 to 1.5% accuracy. They also use the current mirror method which is claimed to be more accurate. There will be independent current protection ( easy current sensing and a transistor to be switched on and off ), over voltage protection and may have a simple analogue voltage stabiliser by an open collector transistor which will have the disadvantage of losing power when the voltage is higher than whatever desired but will give much cleaner output as compared to a switching supply. Can be switched on and off. The electronics will be separate and can be plugged into the generator or not as per the desire. This electronics will lose voltage, i. e. one has to go to 13 to 15V to get 12V regulated output.

I have not been able to start the engine with anything else but a spring start. Not electric drill, not hand rotation of the propeller. This is because the engine requires extremely high RPM, although for a short while which the spring does give and neither a hand nor a drill can. I will not recommend any other start than a spring start to anyone. I have suffered enough for all.

Without the electronics, because a simple dynamo is used, no voltage drop is lost. The dynamo is with brushes because the inexpensive dynamos are this way. The brushes cannot be replaced : once the brushes are worn, the whole dynamo must be replaced. I, usually, never use such solutions. I want everything to be built to last forever as in the 50’s and before although I was not born then. Thus, I am older school than old school. However, I use this dynamo because the dynamo is very inexpensive, just $7. Consider this a price of replacement brushes. I always prefer a brushless dynamo or, best, alternator. These are expensive even the ones made in China. YAF 54 alternator seems to be the best Chinese alternator considering the price, yet extremely expensive. I chose YAF 54 despite the 1.4V voltage loss I was to incur. When I realised the price did not include free shipping I started to sing a different tune. Anyway, YAF 54 is available from the manufacturer for $70 including shipping to Canada or USA. Compare this with $7 shipping included!

THE WHOLE POINT IS THE ENGINE TO BE AS TINY AS POSSIBLE. Otherwise I may as well use a grass trimmer engine which may as well be the next project.

I have been saying this on many occasions : people here have been using these engines for 20 years and I : for less than a couple of months. Probably because of this, I think, I am the only person in the whole world ( I will be happy to have more ) who considers these engines INGENIOUS DEVICES and the greatest achievement of the 20th century! I have always only known these devices exist and I have always been dreaming of applications thereof. I am so happy I can now touch what I have been dreaming of and have the possibility to work with them.

The bad news for you all is I see many applications of these engines and none of them is model airplanes. Sorry. I thank God, however, there are people like you all because, without you all, these engines would probably not have been developed.

I call these engines Micro Engines with Internal Combustion. I call the standard spark and gasoline engines of the grass trimmers Mini Engines with Internal Combustion.

I have developed a “ scientific “ name of the diesel engines : Micro Engines with Internal Combustion with Diesel Way of Spark Generation for Spark Generated Internal Combustion. This is : Spark engines but the spark is not generated by a plug but, instead by diesel ( compression ) autoignition of an ignitor fluid ( Ether ).

I am very unhappy these engines are not thought in any University nor College. Mini engines are.

The potential of these engines is enourmous : from a fan forced hand and general purpose warmers through generators to airplanes ( like yours ), batteryless drones to even RC car alike transportation of light objects and robotics.

The main advantage of these ingenious engines is they do not use batteries and are extremely powerful for their size as well as do not consume huge amounts of fuel.

I am very unhappy when people on TV claim their battery cars or drones or whatever is less expensive and they calculate only the electricity needed to charge the batteries. The truth is, although the batteries are made in China, batteries are extremely expensive and can be big and heavy. And the main problem is : batteries last for only so many charges. Then they have to be replaced. And this is what people on TV do not say. They tell you can charge your electrical car with so many cents only and drive for so many kilometers. WHEN YOU CALCULATE THE PRICE OF THE WEARING BATTERIES WHICH COST A FEW THOUSAND DOLLARS AND DIVIDE THIS PRICE PER KILOMETER, the reality is totally different. May cost even more than gasoline and this price may not be easily overcomeable in the near and even remote future. Put the huge price of the car into consideration and divide per kilometer, put the price of the motors which will soon burn, mainly the isolation of the coil wires and you may as well purchase a Lamborghini or Ferrari, may be less expensive. I understand the price of everything else except the battery will soon be reduced, though. Even the price of the burning electrical motors.

Anyway, I got carried away because I am passionate on the topic . I will try to avoid this.
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Post  Surfer_kris Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:59 pm

I had written a very long answer/comment but then the whole thread disappeared including my post...?  affraid  DAMMIT!

In short;

- there should not be any leak around the compression screw, once the exhaust ports are closed there is no escape. So in a flooded engine something will have to give/break (hopefully the disc) as there is only very little room available for reducing the compression ratio with the teflon-disc construction. The counter piston has a much more limited motion there, compared to traditional designs in dedicated diesel.

- please don't reinvent "scientific" names for a +50 year old design...

- don't overestimate the products that a company could make, they rarely beat the prototype. The Sure start engine and the associated intake choke is a good example, this is the feeble result of modern (or fairly modern since none are made anymore) mass production and cost reductions....

- ask a typical teenager, who needs to be online all time, if he/she would prefer to handstart a diesel generator or simply use a tiny solarpanel and backup battery...
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Post  Mark Boesen Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:32 pm

Lol, after listening to braaaaaaaaap of a internal combustion engine and coughing on the fumes, I'd say after 3-4 minutes they'd wish they had a solar panel!

Steve, I like your idea and your detailed amount of preliminary research, but I really believe other then a novelty I don't see where this would be practical. Yes, it would be cool to have a little rectangle inclosed box with louvers and a pull starter, but here's where you'll likely have issues that need to be addressed:

Noise- you'll need a fairly large muffler to get the db's down to an acceptable level.
Exhaust gas- this would have to be an outside generator.
Oil residue from exhaust- what a mess!
Fuel- this needs it, solar, wind or even a hand crank generator doesn't.
Power- How much power do you really thing this will put out? In order to get any really usable amount of power the engines is going to need to turn some RPM, more RPM more noise, more exhaust, more oil to wipe up. If you reduce intake to "throttle it down" your power output is going to drop dramatically.
Competing with other forms of power sources- Solar panels, modern batteries, hand crank generators are all clean and don't affect the air your breathing, don't require any fuel and don't drip oil all over the place.

Remember if gas power is so great, why is it in the aeromodelling community it's taken a back seat to electric power?
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Post  RknRusty Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:25 pm

Kris, since I merged Steven's two threads, all of the posts from both are interlaced in chronological order. I expect the one you fear you may have lost is likely still in there somewhere. Sorry if it caused confusion for the group, but it would have gotten more so if the two threads on the same subject continued to coexist.
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Post  StevenStanleyBayes Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:06 pm

Mark Boesen wrote:Lol, after listening to braaaaaaaaap of a internal combustion engine and coughing on the fumes, I'd say after 3-4 minutes they'd wish they had a solar panel!

Steve, I like your idea and your detailed amount of preliminary research, but I really believe other then a novelty I don't see where this would be practical. Yes, it would be cool to have a little rectangle inclosed box with louvers and a pull starter, but here's where you'll likely have issues that need to be addressed:

Noise- you'll need a fairly large muffler to get the db's down to an acceptable level.
Exhaust gas- this would have to be an outside generator.
Oil residue from exhaust- what a mess!
Fuel- this needs it, solar, wind or even a hand crank generator doesn't.
Power- How much power do you really thing this will put out? In order to get any really usable amount of power the engines is going to need to turn some RPM, more RPM more noise, more exhaust, more oil to wipe up. If you reduce intake to "throttle it down" your power output is going to drop dramatically.
Competing with other forms of power sources- Solar panels, modern batteries, hand crank generators are all clean and don't affect the air your breathing, don't require any fuel and don't drip oil all over the place.

Remember if gas power is so great, why is it in the aeromodelling community it's taken a back seat to electric power?


Noise : the noise is very low even without muffler. Will run with a muffler soon and post the video, hopefully, with reference noise. GENERATORS ARE NOT MADE TO BE PUT UNDER THE PILLOW! I expect the noise to be lower than the noise of a conventional generator as the engine is rather quiet even without the muffler and the muffler is such ( tiny hole ) as to decrease the noise significantly. I HAVE ALREADY EXPLAINED how a tiny muffler can be constructed to reduce the noise even more. In short : similar BUT NOT THE SAME as a tiny gun suppressor : a closed copper pipe with many holes. Can be serpentine or straight with another on top. Tiny diameter : a few mm.

Exhaust gas : although, theoretically, when run on Methanol and without Cetane Booster, the engine is safe, BEST be run outside or with fully opened windows and near them.

Oil residue from exhaust : not a mess when Castor Oil is used. A sponge near or alike does all the job.

Fuel : Fuel is a problem. SOLAR DOES NEED FUEL. THE FUEL IS CALLED SUN or extreme light. HAND ALSO NEED FUEL. CALLED FOOD. Food provides energy to humans and animals to be able to convert this energy into a mechanical energy ( in this case rotation ) in order to power the crank.

Power : This engine has a huge amount of power. Power at low RPM will be OK. I am shooting to get HALF OF THE MAX POWER at extremely low RPM. Thus, the max power is 50W, I want to get 24W at low RPM. Modellers think max power is achieved at high RPM. This also depends on the FUEL. As a gross generalisation, an engine would loose power at high RPM because : the fuel cannot fully ignite and give the power needed, there is one hell of a fluid leakage at high RPM, the adjustment of the ignition angle ( timing ) is extremely sensitive at high RPM, exhaust cannot be fully blown off, may not be able to pump fuel and air into the upper cylinder very well, may require reduction of the compression in order to optimise the angle of ignition ( timing ) which would boost power but then power would be lost because of the decreased compression, thus the optimal power at high RPM would be less than the optimal power at other RPM, etcetera.

Again : less advanced ignition fuel ( equivalent to higher octane gasoline ) would boost the power at low RPM and reduce power at huge RPM. This is why cars like high octane fuel.

Again : by mistake, when running at low RPM, I stuck a hand through the propeller and blood flew all over the place. The engine did not even blink. Slightly reduced RPM for less than a second and recovered as nothing has happened.

Power can be increased by using a tinier propeller which would reduce the aeration of course. I have used 3.5 inch triple blade propeller and been happy. Now : 8 inch as per Cox.
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Post  StevenStanleyBayes Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:18 pm

StevenStanleyBayes wrote:
Mark Boesen wrote:Lol, after listening to braaaaaaaaap of a internal combustion engine and coughing on the fumes, I'd say after 3-4 minutes they'd wish they had a solar panel!

Steve, I like your idea and your detailed amount of preliminary research, but I really believe other then a novelty I don't see where this would be practical. Yes, it would be cool to have a little rectangle inclosed box with louvers and a pull starter, but here's where you'll likely have issues that need to be addressed:

Noise- you'll need a fairly large muffler to get the db's down to an acceptable level.
Exhaust gas- this would have to be an outside generator.
Oil residue from exhaust- what a mess!
Fuel- this needs it, solar, wind or even a hand crank generator doesn't.
Power- How much power do you really thing this will put out? In order to get any really usable amount of power the engines is going to need to turn some RPM, more RPM more noise, more exhaust, more oil to wipe up. If you reduce intake to "throttle it down" your power output is going to drop dramatically.
Competing with other forms of power sources- Solar panels, modern batteries, hand crank generators are all clean and don't affect the air your breathing, don't require any fuel and don't drip oil all over the place.

Remember if gas power is so great, why is it in the aeromodelling community it's taken a back seat to electric power?


Noise : the noise is very low even without muffler. Will run with a muffler soon and post the video, hopefully, with reference noise. GENERATORS ARE NOT MADE TO BE PUT UNDER THE PILLOW! I expect the noise to be lower than the noise of a conventional generator as the engine is rather quiet even without the muffler and the muffler is such ( tiny hole ) as to decrease the noise significantly. I HAVE ALREADY EXPLAINED how a tiny muffler can be constructed to reduce the noise even more. In short : similar BUT NOT THE SAME as a tiny gun suppressor : a closed copper pipe with many holes. Can be serpentine or straight with another on top. Tiny diameter : a few mm.

Exhaust gas : although, theoretically, when run on Methanol and without Cetane Booster, the engine is safe, BEST be run outside or with fully opened windows and near them.

Oil residue from exhaust : not a mess when Castor Oil is used. A sponge near or alike does all the job.

Fuel : Fuel is a problem. SOLAR DOES NEED FUEL. THE FUEL IS CALLED SUN or extreme light. HAND ALSO NEED FUEL. CALLED FOOD. Food provides energy to humans and animals to be able to convert this energy into a mechanical energy ( in this case rotation ) in order to power the crank.

Power : This engine has a huge amount of power. Power at low RPM will be OK. I am shooting to get HALF OF THE MAX POWER  at extremely low RPM. Thus, the max power is 50W, I want to get 24W at low RPM. Modellers think max power is achieved at high RPM. This also depends on the FUEL. As a gross generalisation, an engine would loose power at high RPM because : the fuel cannot fully ignite and give the power needed, there is one hell of a fluid leakage at high RPM, the adjustment of the ignition angle ( timing ) is extremely sensitive at high RPM, exhaust cannot be fully blown off, may not be able to pump fuel and air into the upper cylinder very well, may require reduction of the compression in order to optimise the angle of ignition ( timing ) which would boost power but then power would be lost because of the decreased compression, thus the optimal power at high RPM would be less than the optimal power at other RPM, etcetera.

Again : less advanced ignition fuel ( equivalent to higher octane gasoline ) would boost the power at low RPM and reduce power at huge RPM. This is why cars like high octane fuel.

Again : by mistake, when running at low RPM, I stuck a hand through the propeller and blood flew all over the place. The engine did not even blink. Slightly reduced RPM for less than a second and recovered as nothing has happened.

Power can be increased by using a tinier propeller which would reduce the aeration of course. I have used 3.5 inch triple blade propeller and been happy. Now : 8 inch as per Cox.


Also, SOME MUSICIANS CLAIM ( which means whatever is to be written is not very scientific ) bass frequencies proliferate more through the environment and the high frequencies do not as the environment works as a natural filter to these. I am not sure how true this is. In case so, high RPM noise will not be heard as loudly as low RPM noise, I. e. at the same environment, high RPM noise will reach a lower radius of dispersion. This may mean : you all claim high RPM screaming engines are very loud and low RPM are quiet but, when you go a few meters away, high RPM noise should not be heard to be as loud which means, whatever you hear at low RPM ( you claim to be quiet ) you will hear at high RPM ( you claim to be loud but will also be quiet ) when you go a few meters away. AGAIN : THIS IS WHAT SOME MUSICIANS SAY AND IS NOT KNOWN WHETHER TRUE OR FALSE.
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 4 Empty Re: Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine

Post  StevenStanleyBayes Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:30 pm

StevenStanleyBayes wrote:
ian1954 wrote:Kris - two litres is about $24 here but I am not a mother and I love the smell. Fresh and burnt! It is a wonderful aroma, it lingers longer and the rags used to clean up afterwards make good fire lighters!

If you noticed in my degumming video  - I run engines in doors when it is cold, wet or windy. I do leave the door open though.



Who needs air fesheners?

Anyway - back to diesel fuel.

Cetane boosters are usually ethylhexyl nitrate whereas the ignition improver for model diesel fuel was traditionally amyl nitrate. It is now isopropyl nitrate as it is easier to get hold of even though they are alkyds that are abused. It is unusual to need more than 2% of this in model diesel fuel there is little advantage adding more.

Ether is a general term for a group of chemicals - but model fuel uses dietheyl ether (a solvent and anesthetic). The sale of this is restricted because it is used in the manufacture of illegal drugs.

The paraffin is known as liquid or medicinal paraffin. It is clear and not the fuel oil purchased from hardware stores and garages.

Again the castor oil in quality model fuel is a first pressing. Castor oil that is first pressed, filtered and then degummed has the unique lubricating properties of castor without the excessive buildup and carbon.


Model diesel fuel doesn't depend on really accurate mixes and I sometimes use heating grade paraffin.

But being heavily influenced by television advertising as a child - I would only use Esso Blue and not the lower grades one could buy.



I know quite a few chaps who have been tempted by "biodiesel" mixes and they have got the engines to run but not perform. They have got the engine warmed up and then switched to the "biodiesel" but found that the engine will "run" for a while but is not responsive and slowly peters out to a stop. It is difficult to maintain a consistent performance particularly tick over.

Back to castor oil. I only uses castor oil for lubricant in my diesel engines. Glow engines I am not fussy and I have a stock of good quality synthetic oil from the various motorbikes I have had. Synthetic certainly makes a cleaner exhaust. I use only castor as it is recommend by the engine manufactures. Even Ronald recommends it for his tiny diesels!

However, a lot must depend on the quality. Ken has difficulty in cold weather with castor oil - I don't with the stuff I use. It doesn't thicken up but the lowest temperature I have ever started a diesel was -8 deg C and I had to alter the compression significantly. I have no experience with glow engines at these temperatures.

Likewise, I have had no issues whatsoever mixing this castor oil in diethyl ether. Add it, shake it and job done. I believe the genuineness of the comments I have read and the personal experiences but I have not experienced this myself and have been mixing diesel fuel for many years.

Now back to engines. The Cox Sure start is not the toughest engine. I admire this project but I have bust many Cox 049s dieselising them. Crankshaft webs and con rods. Always through flooding.

I think the project is to be admired - using a brushless motor and escape to start to motor followed by 3 phase rectifiers (or whatever electrickery) to then use the motor as a generator.

On a diesel as small and delicate as this an electric starter is a recipe for disaster. Small diesels flood easily and hydraulic lock so some care has to be taken here.

Small diesels can be a little temperamental and do not often like slow running for long periods. They cool down, compression changes and stops them.

Larger diesels don't have this problem and are much more responsive to the throttle.

Here are two videos of larger diesels. The first one a cold weather start. They both show the slow tick over possible.


Especially for Roddie - we British don't like gloves but even I wouldn't like getting clouted by a 16x9 propeller on a .60 engine!


THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR EXCELLENT RESPONSE AND INFORMATION!

In the UK, the prise of the fuel and all of the components is extremely inexpensive. In North America : extremely expensive. The Cox specified Kerosene Formula would be $30 per litre. Methanol is not sold in the general purpose stores. Some claim the shops which sell paint sell 100% or 99% Methanol for paint thinner. I have not been able to find such but I have not tried Sherwin Williams. Home Depot and Canadian Tire sell paints and thinners but not Methanol. Have not tried Walmart.

I do not know what the word Paraffin is used for but, I guess, being posted here the word is used for Kerosene.

The Cetane Booster I use contains 2 EthylExyl Nitrate and Xylene. Seems to work well with Kerosene. I do thank you very much for specifying Amyl Nitrate and Isopropyl Nitrate are better for Kerosene. The one I use is extremely poisonous and best not to be used indoors regardless of the tiny amount in the fuel. I also use the engine indoors and I open the Windows to ventilate well.

When I saw your big bottle of Ether, I wanted to get a ticket to the UK. This is a treasure not sold in Canada. Sold only as John Deere Starter Fluid. This contains Diethyl Ether.

The information on clear medicinal Paraffin is great and thank you. I do not think this is sold here.

The information Castor Oil must be FIRST PRESSED is great and I also thank you. Cox sells Castor Oil and I have been using this. I am not sure whether this is first pressed but I think so. I have also purchased medicinal Castor oil from the pharmacy.

I continue to say, however, regardless whether first pressed or not, every organic material will leave Carbon deposits when burned hence Castor Oil better not to be burned, i. e. the engine must not be overheated. I think this cannot be overcome. I thank you for the information first pressed Castor Oil leaves much less Carbon deposits.

I suspected biodiesel will require a standard fuel start and heating up the engine and thank you for clarifying your experience. Thus, a good idea is to have two Cox tanks and one big tank : one only for start up the other, for secondary run and biodiesel and the big tank for biodiesel storage. The big tank would have a needle valve to stop the fuel and will be connected to the second Cox tank. Initially, the two Cox tanks would be filled with standard fuel and the valve between the big tank and the second tank will be closed. The engine would start with Cox fuel and, after burning will switch to the second tank and continue to run with standard fuel. Nearly after burning, the valve will be opened and biodiesel will flow from the big tank to the second tank for the engine to continue on biodiesel. The trick is : the first tank is always nice and clean. In case the engine stops, can be restarted again on the first tank and switched to whatever there is in the second.

The liquid which comes from the John Deere container ( the Ether ) is very cold. I continue to claim I have observed extremely difficult dissolving of Castor Oil into this freezing Ether. I continue to claim the freezing Ether cannot dissolve Castor Oil well and has to be waited to reach near room temperatures and shaken well. I will be happy to be wrong.

I have been abusing the engine on electric drill and even making pure diesel combustions while spinning. The engine seems to be strong enough for the purpose of the generator mainly when taken into account the engine will be run on low RPM.

When the engine gets flooded, remove fully the compression screw, fully close the fuel needle valve and fully open the air valve ( throttle ). Then do around 32 spring starts. All the fuel ( which contains oil and is thicker ) will be blown off through the exhaust as well as through the open hole of the compression screw. Then the engine is better than new because is oiled.!

The project is simple but may have a simple yet good electronics with main IC : MAX4210 : a power monitoring IC based on multiplication by using the logarithmic VI function of the diode which is a very inaccurate method but Maxim have been able to trim the IC to 1 to 1.5% accuracy. They also use the current mirror method which is claimed to be more accurate. There will be independent current protection ( easy current sensing and a transistor to be switched on and off ), over voltage protection and may have a simple analogue voltage stabiliser by an open collector transistor which will have the disadvantage of losing power when the voltage is higher than whatever desired but will give much cleaner output as compared to a switching supply. Can be switched on and off. The electronics will be separate and can be plugged into the generator or not as per the desire. This electronics will lose voltage, i. e. one has to go to 13 to 15V to get 12V regulated output.

I have not been able to start the engine with anything else but a spring start. Not electric drill, not hand rotation of the propeller. This is because the engine requires extremely high RPM, although for a short while which the spring does give and neither a hand nor a drill can. I will not recommend any other start than a spring start to anyone. I have suffered enough for all.

Without the electronics, because a simple dynamo is used, no voltage drop is lost. The dynamo is with brushes because the inexpensive dynamos are this way. The brushes cannot be replaced : once the brushes are worn, the whole dynamo must be replaced. I, usually, never use such solutions. I want everything to be built to last forever as in the 50’s and before although I was not born then. Thus, I am older school than old school. However, I use this dynamo because the dynamo is very inexpensive, just $7. Consider this a price of replacement brushes. I always prefer a brushless dynamo or, best, alternator. These are expensive even the ones made in China. YAF 54 alternator seems to be the best Chinese alternator considering the price, yet extremely expensive. I chose YAF 54 despite the 1.4V voltage loss I was to incur. When I realised the price did not include free shipping I started to sing a different tune. Anyway, YAF 54 is available from the manufacturer for $70 including shipping to Canada or USA. Compare this with $7 shipping included!

THE WHOLE POINT IS THE ENGINE TO BE AS TINY AS POSSIBLE. Otherwise I may as well use a grass trimmer engine which may as well be the next project.

I have been saying this on many occasions : people here have been using these engines for 20 years and I : for less than a couple of months. Probably because of this, I think, I am the only person in the whole world ( I will be happy to have more ) who considers these engines INGENIOUS DEVICES and the greatest achievement of the 20th century! I have always only known these devices exist and I have always been dreaming of applications thereof. I am so happy I can now touch what I have been dreaming of and have the possibility to work with them.

The bad news for you all is I see many applications of these engines and none of them is model airplanes. Sorry. I thank God, however, there are people like you all because, without you all, these engines would probably not have been developed.

I call these engines Micro Engines with Internal Combustion. I call the standard spark and gasoline engines of the grass trimmers Mini Engines with Internal Combustion.

I have developed a “ scientific “ name of the diesel engines : Micro Engines with Internal Combustion with Diesel Way of Spark Generation for Spark Generated Internal Combustion. This is : Spark engines but the spark is not generated by a plug but, instead by diesel ( compression ) autoignition of an ignitor fluid ( Ether ).

I am very unhappy these engines are not thought in any University nor College. Mini engines are.

The potential of these engines is enourmous : from a fan forced hand and general purpose warmers through generators to airplanes ( like yours ), batteryless drones to even RC car alike transportation of light objects and robotics.

The main advantage of these ingenious engines is they do not use batteries and are extremely powerful for their size as well as do not consume huge amounts of fuel.

I am very unhappy when people on TV claim their battery cars or drones or whatever is less expensive and they calculate only the electricity needed to charge the batteries. The truth is, although the batteries are made in China, batteries are extremely expensive and can be big and heavy. And the main problem is : batteries last for only so many charges. Then they have to be replaced. And this is what people on TV do not say. They tell you can charge your electrical car with so many cents only and drive for so many kilometers. WHEN YOU CALCULATE THE PRICE OF THE WEARING BATTERIES WHICH COST A FEW THOUSAND DOLLARS AND DIVIDE THIS PRICE PER KILOMETER, the reality is totally different. May cost even more than gasoline and this price may not be easily overcomeable in the near and even remote future. Put the huge price of the car into consideration and divide per kilometer, put the price of the motors which will soon burn, mainly the isolation of the coil wires and you may as well purchase a Lamborghini or Ferrari, may be less expensive. I understand the price of everything else except the battery will soon be reduced, though. Even the price of the burning electrical motors.

Anyway, I got carried away because I am passionate on the topic . I will try to avoid this.


Also, Germanium diodes have a lower voltage drop, still not very low.

The symptoms of an engine to work for a while and stop with biodiesel may mean the fuel needle valve should be more open to allow the thicker fuel to be sucked in as well as the ignition angle ( timing ) is either too advanced or too retarded. Diesel autoignites at 210C as opposed to Ether at 160C. Thus, a biodiesel fuel may require more advanced ignition, I. e. leaner mixture. I am not sure which fuel combusts more simultaneously though : Ether or Diesel. In case diesel is to combust faster than the ignition should be retarded otherwise advanced. I would think Ether combusts faster than diesel but I am not sure. For sure diesel combusts much faster than gasoline.

This is how I start the engine : I start with leaner fuel and than go from lean to rich. At a given point the engine would start for a few spins but not sustain. Then I decrease the air valve ( throttle ) opening to provide richer mixture at which the engine starts and sustains for a long while ( 10 seconds ) or forever. Within the ten seconds, the compression may slightly be increased to make the engine sustain and then the air valve ( throttle ) can be opened more to give slightly less rich mixture. Then, after a few more seconds, when the engine heats up more, everyone can do whatever settings they want and the engine will continue reliably for normally ranged settings.

I understand the sensitivity of the controls with biodiesel may so high so to run the engine continuously may be difficult.
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 4 Empty Re: Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine

Post  StevenStanleyBayes Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:58 pm

StevenStanleyBayes wrote:
Mark Boesen wrote:Lol, after listening to braaaaaaaaap of a internal combustion engine and coughing on the fumes, I'd say after 3-4 minutes they'd wish they had a solar panel!

Steve, I like your idea and your detailed amount of preliminary research, but I really believe other then a novelty I don't see where this would be practical. Yes, it would be cool to have a little rectangle inclosed box with louvers and a pull starter, but here's where you'll likely have issues that need to be addressed:

Noise- you'll need a fairly large muffler to get the db's down to an acceptable level.
Exhaust gas- this would have to be an outside generator.
Oil residue from exhaust- what a mess!
Fuel- this needs it, solar, wind or even a hand crank generator doesn't.
Power- How much power do you really thing this will put out? In order to get any really usable amount of power the engines is going to need to turn some RPM, more RPM more noise, more exhaust, more oil to wipe up. If you reduce intake to "throttle it down" your power output is going to drop dramatically.
Competing with other forms of power sources- Solar panels, modern batteries, hand crank generators are all clean and don't affect the air your breathing, don't require any fuel and don't drip oil all over the place.

Remember if gas power is so great, why is it in the aeromodelling community it's taken a back seat to electric power?


Noise : the noise is very low even without muffler. Will run with a muffler soon and post the video, hopefully, with reference noise. GENERATORS ARE NOT MADE TO BE PUT UNDER THE PILLOW! I expect the noise to be lower than the noise of a conventional generator as the engine is rather quiet even without the muffler and the muffler is such ( tiny hole ) as to decrease the noise significantly. I HAVE ALREADY EXPLAINED how a tiny muffler can be constructed to reduce the noise even more. In short : similar BUT NOT THE SAME as a tiny gun suppressor : a closed copper pipe with many holes. Can be serpentine or straight with another on top. Tiny diameter : a few mm.

Exhaust gas : although, theoretically, when run on Methanol and without Cetane Booster, the engine is safe, BEST be run outside or with fully opened windows and near them.

Oil residue from exhaust : not a mess when Castor Oil is used. A sponge near or alike does all the job.

Fuel : Fuel is a problem. SOLAR DOES NEED FUEL. THE FUEL IS CALLED SUN or extreme light. HAND ALSO NEED FUEL. CALLED FOOD. Food provides energy to humans and animals to be able to convert this energy into a mechanical energy ( in this case rotation ) in order to power the crank.

Power : This engine has a huge amount of power. Power at low RPM will be OK. I am shooting to get HALF OF THE MAX POWER  at extremely low RPM. Thus, the max power is 50W, I want to get 24W at low RPM. Modellers think max power is achieved at high RPM. This also depends on the FUEL. As a gross generalisation, an engine would loose power at high RPM because : the fuel cannot fully ignite and give the power needed, there is one hell of a fluid leakage at high RPM, the adjustment of the ignition angle ( timing ) is extremely sensitive at high RPM, exhaust cannot be fully blown off, may not be able to pump fuel and air into the upper cylinder very well, may require reduction of the compression in order to optimise the angle of ignition ( timing ) which would boost power but then power would be lost because of the decreased compression, thus the optimal power at high RPM would be less than the optimal power at other RPM, etcetera.

Again : less advanced ignition fuel ( equivalent to higher octane gasoline ) would boost the power at low RPM and reduce power at huge RPM. This is why cars like high octane fuel.

Again : by mistake, when running at low RPM, I stuck a hand through the propeller and blood flew all over the place. The engine did not even blink. Slightly reduced RPM for less than a second and recovered as nothing has happened.

Power can be increased by using a tinier propeller which would reduce the aeration of course. I have used 3.5 inch triple blade propeller and been happy. Now : 8 inch as per Cox.


Clarification :

More advanced fuel means the fuel would ignite and combust ( combust on overall ) sooner and does not mean the fuel will combust faster. Thus, Ether would ignite pretty much the same but how slow the main fuel is depends on the main fuel. As a gross generalisation, fuels which autoignite faster also combust faster but this is not always mainly with these engine's fuel which has an igniter and main fuel built in the overall fuel. Thus I, on occasion, make the mistake to call slower fuels more retarded fuels but this is not true always.

Slow combusting fuels ( for example high octane gasoline ) with a prolonged combustion are better for low RPM and get more power there. Fast combusting fuels are better for high RPM.

In case I was to have a choice I would use a slow combusting fuel regardless ( to an extend ) where the ignition is. I think Methanol combusts more slowly than Kerosene but I AM NOT SURE. In case anyone knows, you are welcome to inform. ( For a car, I would prefer a high octane gasoline as this combusts more slowly ).
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 4 Empty Re: Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine

Post  StevenStanleyBayes Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:58 pm

StevenStanleyBayes wrote:
StevenStanleyBayes wrote:
ian1954 wrote:Kris - two litres is about $24 here but I am not a mother and I love the smell. Fresh and burnt! It is a wonderful aroma, it lingers longer and the rags used to clean up afterwards make good fire lighters!

If you noticed in my degumming video  - I run engines in doors when it is cold, wet or windy. I do leave the door open though.



Who needs air fesheners?

Anyway - back to diesel fuel.

Cetane boosters are usually ethylhexyl nitrate whereas the ignition improver for model diesel fuel was traditionally amyl nitrate. It is now isopropyl nitrate as it is easier to get hold of even though they are alkyds that are abused. It is unusual to need more than 2% of this in model diesel fuel there is little advantage adding more.

Ether is a general term for a group of chemicals - but model fuel uses dietheyl ether (a solvent and anesthetic). The sale of this is restricted because it is used in the manufacture of illegal drugs.

The paraffin is known as liquid or medicinal paraffin. It is clear and not the fuel oil purchased from hardware stores and garages.

Again the castor oil in quality model fuel is a first pressing. Castor oil that is first pressed, filtered and then degummed has the unique lubricating properties of castor without the excessive buildup and carbon.


Model diesel fuel doesn't depend on really accurate mixes and I sometimes use heating grade paraffin.

But being heavily influenced by television advertising as a child - I would only use Esso Blue and not the lower grades one could buy.



I know quite a few chaps who have been tempted by "biodiesel" mixes and they have got the engines to run but not perform. They have got the engine warmed up and then switched to the "biodiesel" but found that the engine will "run" for a while but is not responsive and slowly peters out to a stop. It is difficult to maintain a consistent performance particularly tick over.

Back to castor oil. I only uses castor oil for lubricant in my diesel engines. Glow engines I am not fussy and I have a stock of good quality synthetic oil from the various motorbikes I have had. Synthetic certainly makes a cleaner exhaust. I use only castor as it is recommend by the engine manufactures. Even Ronald recommends it for his tiny diesels!

However, a lot must depend on the quality. Ken has difficulty in cold weather with castor oil - I don't with the stuff I use. It doesn't thicken up but the lowest temperature I have ever started a diesel was -8 deg C and I had to alter the compression significantly. I have no experience with glow engines at these temperatures.

Likewise, I have had no issues whatsoever mixing this castor oil in diethyl ether. Add it, shake it and job done. I believe the genuineness of the comments I have read and the personal experiences but I have not experienced this myself and have been mixing diesel fuel for many years.

Now back to engines. The Cox Sure start is not the toughest engine. I admire this project but I have bust many Cox 049s dieselising them. Crankshaft webs and con rods. Always through flooding.

I think the project is to be admired - using a brushless motor and escape to start to motor followed by 3 phase rectifiers (or whatever electrickery) to then use the motor as a generator.

On a diesel as small and delicate as this an electric starter is a recipe for disaster. Small diesels flood easily and hydraulic lock so some care has to be taken here.

Small diesels can be a little temperamental and do not often like slow running for long periods. They cool down, compression changes and stops them.

Larger diesels don't have this problem and are much more responsive to the throttle.

Here are two videos of larger diesels. The first one a cold weather start. They both show the slow tick over possible.


Especially for Roddie - we British don't like gloves but even I wouldn't like getting clouted by a 16x9 propeller on a .60 engine!


THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR EXCELLENT RESPONSE AND INFORMATION!

In the UK, the prise of the fuel and all of the components is extremely inexpensive. In North America : extremely expensive. The Cox specified Kerosene Formula would be $30 per litre. Methanol is not sold in the general purpose stores. Some claim the shops which sell paint sell 100% or 99% Methanol for paint thinner. I have not been able to find such but I have not tried Sherwin Williams. Home Depot and Canadian Tire sell paints and thinners but not Methanol. Have not tried Walmart.

I do not know what the word Paraffin is used for but, I guess, being posted here the word is used for Kerosene.

The Cetane Booster I use contains 2 EthylExyl Nitrate and Xylene. Seems to work well with Kerosene. I do thank you very much for specifying Amyl Nitrate and Isopropyl Nitrate are better for Kerosene. The one I use is extremely poisonous and best not to be used indoors regardless of the tiny amount in the fuel. I also use the engine indoors and I open the Windows to ventilate well.

When I saw your big bottle of Ether, I wanted to get a ticket to the UK. This is a treasure not sold in Canada. Sold only as John Deere Starter Fluid. This contains Diethyl Ether.

The information on clear medicinal Paraffin is great and thank you. I do not think this is sold here.

The information Castor Oil must be FIRST PRESSED is great and I also thank you. Cox sells Castor Oil and I have been using this. I am not sure whether this is first pressed but I think so. I have also purchased medicinal Castor oil from the pharmacy.

I continue to say, however, regardless whether first pressed or not, every organic material will leave Carbon deposits when burned hence Castor Oil better not to be burned, i. e. the engine must not be overheated. I think this cannot be overcome. I thank you for the information first pressed Castor Oil leaves much less Carbon deposits.

I suspected biodiesel will require a standard fuel start and heating up the engine and thank you for clarifying your experience. Thus, a good idea is to have two Cox tanks and one big tank : one only for start up the other, for secondary run and biodiesel and the big tank for biodiesel storage. The big tank would have a needle valve to stop the fuel and will be connected to the second Cox tank. Initially, the two Cox tanks would be filled with standard fuel and the valve between the big tank and the second tank will be closed. The engine would start with Cox fuel and, after burning will switch to the second tank and continue to run with standard fuel. Nearly after burning, the valve will be opened and biodiesel will flow from the big tank to the second tank for the engine to continue on biodiesel. The trick is : the first tank is always nice and clean. In case the engine stops, can be restarted again on the first tank and switched to whatever there is in the second.

The liquid which comes from the John Deere container ( the Ether ) is very cold. I continue to claim I have observed extremely difficult dissolving of Castor Oil into this freezing Ether. I continue to claim the freezing Ether cannot dissolve Castor Oil well and has to be waited to reach near room temperatures and shaken well. I will be happy to be wrong.

I have been abusing the engine on electric drill and even making pure diesel combustions while spinning. The engine seems to be strong enough for the purpose of the generator mainly when taken into account the engine will be run on low RPM.

When the engine gets flooded, remove fully the compression screw, fully close the fuel needle valve and fully open the air valve ( throttle ). Then do around 32 spring starts. All the fuel ( which contains oil and is thicker ) will be blown off through the exhaust as well as through the open hole of the compression screw. Then the engine is better than new because is oiled.!

The project is simple but may have a simple yet good electronics with main IC : MAX4210 : a power monitoring IC based on multiplication by using the logarithmic VI function of the diode which is a very inaccurate method but Maxim have been able to trim the IC to 1 to 1.5% accuracy. They also use the current mirror method which is claimed to be more accurate. There will be independent current protection ( easy current sensing and a transistor to be switched on and off ), over voltage protection and may have a simple analogue voltage stabiliser by an open collector transistor which will have the disadvantage of losing power when the voltage is higher than whatever desired but will give much cleaner output as compared to a switching supply. Can be switched on and off. The electronics will be separate and can be plugged into the generator or not as per the desire. This electronics will lose voltage, i. e. one has to go to 13 to 15V to get 12V regulated output.

I have not been able to start the engine with anything else but a spring start. Not electric drill, not hand rotation of the propeller. This is because the engine requires extremely high RPM, although for a short while which the spring does give and neither a hand nor a drill can. I will not recommend any other start than a spring start to anyone. I have suffered enough for all.

Without the electronics, because a simple dynamo is used, no voltage drop is lost. The dynamo is with brushes because the inexpensive dynamos are this way. The brushes cannot be replaced : once the brushes are worn, the whole dynamo must be replaced. I, usually, never use such solutions. I want everything to be built to last forever as in the 50’s and before although I was not born then. Thus, I am older school than old school. However, I use this dynamo because the dynamo is very inexpensive, just $7. Consider this a price of replacement brushes. I always prefer a brushless dynamo or, best, alternator. These are expensive even the ones made in China. YAF 54 alternator seems to be the best Chinese alternator considering the price, yet extremely expensive. I chose YAF 54 despite the 1.4V voltage loss I was to incur. When I realised the price did not include free shipping I started to sing a different tune. Anyway, YAF 54 is available from the manufacturer for $70 including shipping to Canada or USA. Compare this with $7 shipping included!

THE WHOLE POINT IS THE ENGINE TO BE AS TINY AS POSSIBLE. Otherwise I may as well use a grass trimmer engine which may as well be the next project.

I have been saying this on many occasions : people here have been using these engines for 20 years and I : for less than a couple of months. Probably because of this, I think, I am the only person in the whole world ( I will be happy to have more ) who considers these engines INGENIOUS DEVICES and the greatest achievement of the 20th century! I have always only known these devices exist and I have always been dreaming of applications thereof. I am so happy I can now touch what I have been dreaming of and have the possibility to work with them.

The bad news for you all is I see many applications of these engines and none of them is model airplanes. Sorry. I thank God, however, there are people like you all because, without you all, these engines would probably not have been developed.

I call these engines Micro Engines with Internal Combustion. I call the standard spark and gasoline engines of the grass trimmers Mini Engines with Internal Combustion.

I have developed a “ scientific “ name of the diesel engines : Micro Engines with Internal Combustion with Diesel Way of Spark Generation for Spark Generated Internal Combustion. This is : Spark engines but the spark is not generated by a plug but, instead by diesel ( compression ) autoignition of an ignitor fluid ( Ether ).

I am very unhappy these engines are not thought in any University nor College. Mini engines are.

The potential of these engines is enourmous : from a fan forced hand and general purpose warmers through generators to airplanes ( like yours ), batteryless drones to even RC car alike transportation of light objects and robotics.

The main advantage of these ingenious engines is they do not use batteries and are extremely powerful for their size as well as do not consume huge amounts of fuel.

I am very unhappy when people on TV claim their battery cars or drones or whatever is less expensive and they calculate only the electricity needed to charge the batteries. The truth is, although the batteries are made in China, batteries are extremely expensive and can be big and heavy. And the main problem is : batteries last for only so many charges. Then they have to be replaced. And this is what people on TV do not say. They tell you can charge your electrical car with so many cents only and drive for so many kilometers. WHEN YOU CALCULATE THE PRICE OF THE WEARING BATTERIES WHICH COST A FEW THOUSAND DOLLARS AND DIVIDE THIS PRICE PER KILOMETER, the reality is totally different. May cost even more than gasoline and this price may not be easily overcomeable in the near and even remote future. Put the huge price of the car into consideration and divide per kilometer, put the price of the motors which will soon burn, mainly the isolation of the coil wires and you may as well purchase a Lamborghini or Ferrari, may be less expensive. I understand the price of everything else except the battery will soon be reduced, though. Even the price of the burning electrical motors.

Anyway, I got carried away because I am passionate on the topic . I will try to avoid this.


Also, Germanium diodes have a lower voltage drop, still not very low.

The symptoms of an engine to work for a while and stop with biodiesel may mean the fuel needle valve should be more open to allow the thicker fuel to be sucked in as well as the ignition angle ( timing ) is either too advanced or too retarded. Diesel autoignites at 210C as opposed to Ether at 160C. Thus, a biodiesel fuel may require more advanced ignition, I. e. leaner mixture. I am not sure which fuel combusts more simultaneously though : Ether or Diesel. In case diesel is to combust faster than the ignition should be retarded otherwise advanced. I would think Ether combusts faster than diesel but I am not sure. For sure diesel combusts much faster than gasoline.

This is how I start the engine : I start with leaner fuel and than go from lean to rich. At a given point the engine would start for a few spins but not sustain. Then I decrease the air valve ( throttle ) opening to provide richer mixture at which the engine starts and sustains for a long while ( 10 seconds ) or forever. Within the ten seconds, the compression may slightly be increased to make the engine sustain and then the air valve ( throttle ) can be opened more to give slightly less rich mixture. Then, after a few more seconds, when the engine heats up more, everyone can do whatever settings they want and the engine will continue reliably for normally ranged settings.

I understand the sensitivity of the controls with biodiesel may so high so to run the engine continuously may be difficult.


Clarification :

More advanced fuel means the fuel would ignite and combust ( combust on overall ) sooner and does not mean the fuel will combust faster. Thus, Ether would ignite pretty much the same but how slow the main fuel is depends on the main fuel. As a gross generalisation, fuels which autoignite faster also combust faster but this is not always mainly with these engine's fuel which has an igniter and main fuel built in the overall fuel. Thus I, on occasion, make the mistake to call slower fuels more retarded fuels but this is not true always.

Slow combusting fuels ( for example high octane gasoline ) with a prolonged combustion are better for low RPM and get more power there. Fast combusting fuels are better for high RPM.

In case I was to have a choice I would use a slow combusting fuel regardless ( to an extend ) where the ignition is. I think Methanol combusts more slowly than Kerosene but I AM NOT SURE. In case anyone knows, you are welcome to inform. ( For a car, I would prefer a high octane gasoline as this combusts more slowly ).
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Post  RknRusty Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:45 pm

Dudes and possibly Dudette... Steve ain't backing down, so I've gotta give him credit for determination. Me being an electronics guy, I was also a naysayer right off the bat, at least from that end of the idea. But I think I'll follow the project and see just what Steve comes up with. I don't know much about diesel model engines, but if any Cox engine questions arise, I'll try to toss in what I know and hope it helps.
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Post  StevenStanleyBayes Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:25 pm

RknRusty wrote:Dudes and possibly Dudette... Steve ain't backing down, so I've gotta give him credit for determination. Me being an electronics guy, I was also a naysayer right off the bat, at least from that end of the idea. But I think I'll follow the project and see just what Steve comes up with. I don't know much about diesel model engines, but if any Cox engine questions arise, I'll try to toss in what I know and hope it helps.
Rusty


Thanks. The electronics and electrical is not the main part of this project. The electronics which I did not want to touch but described briefly is mainly for protection as well as for voltage regulation.

A really good electronics would be a microcontroller system which can work under an algorithm to calculate the best settings for the fuel needle valve, air valve ( throttle ) and compression and, through motors, control these settings to provide enough power for a given load and maintain a given voltage. This, I may be able to do, theoretically speaking, but I will not. This is best done in a company environment.

The main part of the project is the engine and everything associated with.

I can hardly wait to put a video of the engine with a muffler just to show how the engine works. This is known to most of the people on the forum, although, I think, not very many have used mufflers because these decrease the performance and because not very many modellers are concerned with the noise.

I was supposed to receive the piston but I did not. Hopefully tomorrow. Then I will assemble the engine and assemble the engine to the stand. Then I will make the video. Again : I have not yet started nor run the engine with a muffler. I will try to make some well known background noises for reference.

The best for now is to wait and see.

Then I will assemble the dynamo and roughly calculate the size of some preliminary pulleys. As I have said, the trick is to have wide enough pulleys so the belt does not jump out.

I will try to use the pulleys I have which are only 5mm and not deep enough, I think. Then, I can either make one out of two pulleys with grinding and filing or I can make own pulleys with rubber washers for pluming.

In case this does not help, I can purchase some rope carbines which have wide Aluminium pulleys and maybe these will work. One of the problem is the generator has only 9mm of the axel out, so, I may need to put an extension, a pipe of some sort which I do not know where to get from. This may be quite difficult to fabricate when there is nothing around.

Ideally, the dynamo would have a tiny fan to reduce the heat. This may have to be supper glued to the pulley.

The pulleys also have to be away from the propellers.

As you can see, other than the engine, I have stupid problems which are because I cannot find good parts, even as simple as pulleys.

However, because the other problems are stupid, I wish to concentrate the help which I would like to get from this forum on the engine.
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Post  Surfer_kris Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:35 pm

StevenStanleyBayes wrote:
However, because the other problems are stupid, I wish to concentrate the help which I would like to get from this forum on the engine.

Then I would suggest that you learn how to tune and use the engine on commercially available model-diesel fuel. That should give you experience with how to operate a model diesel engine. Other fuels are a little futile especially on an engine like the cox sure start.

For hints on the engine (Cox sure start on diesel, with muffler, cold start valve and proper RC carburator etc), you can read here for instance; http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/1-2-1-8-airplanes-70/11612746-muffler-made-capacitor-cox-049-a.html

This is how it looks;

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Post  dinsdale Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:12 am

G'day Steve, and welcome to the friendliest forum on the web - bar none!  I've just read the entire thread with a great deal of interest.  Alas, as a curio I see your idea as an admirable venture, but as a commercial venture I'd have to admit that I'm with the detractors.

Just a few posts up from this one you mention that there'll be no mess to clean up because of the use of castor oil. Exactly the opposite will be true.  Castor is messy - very messy!  But absolutely necessary for these engines.  Other engines which are happy using 100% synthetic oil are almost mess free.

You mention the amount of power you expect to get out of one of these diesel SureStarts.  You say heaps, and I say very little indeed, particularly at the RPM you're talking about  You said that you needed/wanted help with the engines, not the electronics, but you've steadfastly resisted all the help which has been very diplomatically put your way.  Please forgive my forthright manner, but I'll put some issues plainly to you.

IC (internal combustion) engines power output (most of us don't realise it, but when we speak of power output from an IC engine we're talking about brake horse power) is a simple function of rpm and torque (and a tiny constant k).  I doubt that you could even achieve a reliable steady state at 4,000 rpm, but whatever minimal rpm you can achieve there will surely be next to no torque being produced, and all that is being produced will used just to overcome the internal frictions etc so that the engine can keep running.

Also, whilst on this subject, there are numerous articles about converting Cox reed engines to diesel (http://coxengines.ca/engine-and-fuel-guides.html)  , and one of the first things you should do is put an upgraded crankshaft into your engine, such as this one - http://coxengines.ca/cox-.049-killer-bee-diesel-crank.html

These little engines are built for a purpose - port timing, compression, stroke vs bore, fuel mix for instance all play a part.  These engines are NOT being abused at 17,000rpm.  That's just what they're designed to do, and they do it magnificently.  Like any IC engine, like you car too, if you load it up and force it to "lug" heavy loads at low rpm you'll kill it in no time. Think of a 600HP Ferrari and 600HP road train.  The Ferrari can't pull 100 tonnes of trailers and the road train can't do 300KPH.  The old saying is, "horses for courses".

I'd love to see video of your finished prototype, and it's the sort of thing I'd probably have a go at if I'd thought of it, but for any perceived commercial use I'd reckon you're definitely barking up the wrong tree.  If I did have a go at it I'd absolutely definitely start with a different engine - probably 60 or bigger 4 stroke.

Please don't be too offended, but someone had to say it.
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