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1/2A stunt trainer design

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1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  rogermharris on Thu May 28, 2015 12:09 pm

well i have started designing this thing. will be a 23.5 to 23.75" wing span with flaps.
i plan on using either a golden bee or black widow to power it. the wing is cut from a piece of sig's 1/4" x 4" air foil. i'm going to cut it and add 1/2" to the cord as suggested. any thought or suggestions??

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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  pkrankow on Thu May 28, 2015 1:14 pm

Fuse looks short, but I could be wrong.

Have you looked at outerzone?
http://outerzone.co.uk/

Look at proven winners like the Nobler, Magician, Oriental, and others. Replicate the turning moments scaled down to 1/2a.

Phil
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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  rogermharris on Thu May 28, 2015 1:20 pm

pkrankow wrote:Fuse looks short, but I could be wrong.

Have you looked at outerzone?
http://outerzone.co.uk/

Look at proven winners like the Nobler, Magician, Oriental, and others.  Replicate the turning moments scaled down to 1/2a.

Phil

actually some of it may be the monitor/graphics card on that machine. circles look like ovals LOL! phil i have dome some looking on outerzone. hard to find what i'm after when you don't have model names to look fort. thanks phil! i will check out the ones you mentioned
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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  KariFS on Thu May 28, 2015 1:31 pm

Outerzone has a pretty good "advanced search" feature. You can select tags from pull-down menus, such as CL, stunt, scale etc, and you can also set min and max wing span. With these you can narrow down the results pretty good.

There's a lot of 1/2A stunt models there too, with and without flaps.
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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  GallopingGhostler on Thu May 28, 2015 2:26 pm

I think it a fantastic design for something more than a 1960's era round & round style of half-A that had very limited stunting. You could even keep the fuselage and wing as is, make the tail feathers resemble a Ringmaster, then it would be a true variant and qualify for the Ringmaster Fly-A-Thon coming first weekend in October. Cool
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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  rogermharris on Thu May 28, 2015 4:41 pm

Thanks all!  
I downloaded four different designs and the fuse legnth and turning moments look to be ball park. The biggest thing I see including the baby ringmaster is the stabilizer and elevator are in line with the trailing edge of the wing. I'll do the same. For the heck of it I'll put a baby ringmaster/ ringmaster jr. stabilizer and elevator on it


Last edited by rogermharris on Thu May 28, 2015 7:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Looking Good :)

Post  CHELLIE on Thu May 28, 2015 6:57 pm

your plane looks great, Dont forget that I get to do the Maiden flight on it Very Happy  LOL  Next build a 1/2a VOODOO wing, with a TD 051 and a 5x3 prop on a Bladder  Tank Very Happy  A guy was flying a foam combat wing at Whitter Narrows in so calif a few years ago, it had about a 40" W/S and it was Hauling buns, I thought he had a 40 size engine it it from afar, but when i got closer, it had a TD 051 engine with a 5x3 prop and a Bladder tank, dang that thing was fast, Take care everyone, Chellie

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VOODOO-Combat-FULL-SIZED-Model-airplane-plan-22-5-wing-Takes-049-engines-/171700384715" />
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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  roddie on Thu May 28, 2015 8:58 pm

I really like it Rog! Designing is something that I find very enjoyable. I did a reedy-powered model with flaps, back in 1993.. that flew nice with a Golden Bee. I'm thinking that my wing/flap area is identical to yours. Mine was strictly a 1/8" sheet slab-wing though.. whereas you've got some airfoil in that Sig panel. My model's span is 23.5" with a 4.5" constant-chord with slight reverse-swept tips. The full-flaps measure 1.5" at the root-chord; tapering to 5/8" at the tips and are hinged with Dubro sm. size pinned nylon hinges.



The tail-plane construction is 1/8" sheet balsa. The stabilizer has a 7" span/2" chord. The split-elevator has 7" span/1" chord and hinged to the stab. with the same Dubro sm. hinges. The fin/rudder is 3" tall, 3" long at the base.. tapering to 1.25" at the top. Approx. 1/3 of the rear section (rudder) has approx. 1/4" of R/H offset.



The distance from the wings' T/E (less flaps) to the L/E of the stab. is. 6.0". What I can't tell you are the control throw-ratios.. but I seem to remember them being 1:1. The model is in the midst of a re-paint/re-build for a horseshoe-back-plate/wedge-tank retrofit. This is the first model that I was able to loop and fly inverted with. The wing and tail-plane share the same centerline. The fuse is 1/4" sheet balsa with 1/16" birch-ply nose-doublers that extend back 1/2" rearward the wing's L/E. I used 3/8" sq. maple blocks behind the 1/16" birch-ply firewall for a firm radial engine mounting. The nose measures 2.375" from firewall to the wings' L/E. I'm not sure with flaps; how you'd design your tailplane area/stab. to elev. ratio or moment. There's probably a formula somewhere.. I just "winged-it"..



The tail-plane profile seems to be the hardest element of design for me.. particularly the fin/rudder. I've had some fugly prototypes.. Shocked but when they're that bad.. you know it. It just doesn't look good. I've never seen a "totally-symmetrical" stunter. When you think about it; it certainly should have it's advantages. We're all drawn to sleek "Scale-model" designs.. but none of them were intended to fly control line aerobatics.

I attempted a fully-symmetrical design in this non-flapped model of the mid-1990's.



Of coarse; the "landing-gear" negates that concept.. but the model still performs well. Since joining CEF.. I've learned of Rusty's "bath-mat" wing-stooge.. so I just may remove the gear and re-balance the c of g to see how it fly's.



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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  rogermharris on Thu May 28, 2015 9:19 pm

Very cool roodie! Thanks for taking the time to post with all the dims. I did a little more tweeting to it this afternoon and if I have time will at least start cutting some of it tomorrow. My favorite plan as a kid was a babe ringmaster with flaps and a blackwidow.
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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  getback on Fri May 29, 2015 8:07 am

Hi Roger here is some rings you don't see much of ...        some decals too  
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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  rogermharris on Fri May 29, 2015 9:42 am

Eric... I love you!

my trainer was based on the beginner ringmaster. what i see here that really excites me is the bipe! i had completely forgotten about that model but, my dad built one early on. it was crashed and epoxied back together more times than i can count! believe it or not when my dad saw the videos of us flying, he brought up a story that i remember the event but not the plane. i think my little sister was around 9 at the time. we were flying out in an open field in town when a dog showed up. it was a friendly dog but she did not know that! while flying the bipe the dog went to visit her and she sorta ran around to get away from the dog all while still flying and maintaining control of the plane for a full fuel run!!!~ i remember my dad doubled over laughing so hard and i was rolling on the ground .. I WILL BUILD A BIPE!
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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  duke.johnson on Fri May 29, 2015 9:45 am

Does anyone have the drawing for the beginner ringmaster bipe? I have most of the ringmasters and need to start building the bipe series.
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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  rogermharris on Fri May 29, 2015 10:13 am

duke.johnson wrote:Does anyone have the drawing for the beginner ringmaster bipe?  I have most of the ringmasters and need to start building the bipe series.


did a quick search and found this one


Last edited by rogermharris on Fri May 29, 2015 10:19 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : forgot the image....)
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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  pkrankow on Fri May 29, 2015 10:26 am

Here are some kits,
http://pdkllc.com/airplane-049-061/

Phil
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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  rogermharris on Fri May 29, 2015 10:39 am

here is mine updated. the only major things not done yet are widening the cord from 4 to 4.5" and figuring out the pushrod to operate the flaps. what about replicating the decal sheets? i have seen that people are printing their own, where can i get the water slide paper?

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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  rogermharris on Fri May 29, 2015 10:45 am

pkrankow wrote:Here are some kits,
http://pdkllc.com/airplane-049-061/

Phil


nice! i book marked that one phil
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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  GallopingGhostler on Fri May 29, 2015 11:10 am

rogermharris wrote:here is mine updated.  the only major things not done yet are widening the cord from 4 to 4.5" and figuring out the pushrod to operate the flaps.  what about replicating the decal sheets?  i have seen that people are printing their own,  where can i get the water slide paper?

Looks good but in order for it to qualify for the Ringmaster Fly-A-Thon the flying surfaces must be recognizable as Ringmaster, which means the elliptical rudder as well. I guess you could provide an alternate rudder in the plans and one could trace to make one to replace the current one.
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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  rogermharris on Fri May 29, 2015 11:17 am

yea i can do that. this one is for me so i can always make another with a proper ringmaster rudder
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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  RknRusty on Fri May 29, 2015 11:25 am

The Ringmaster Cops might not jump him on that. Make sure they aren't hiding behind the bushes first though.

Roger, I see one thing in your diagram that may need attention, the elevator horn holes are not aligned with the hinge line. That's important for equal deflection with no binding. The center of the holes must be exactly over the center of the hinge line.
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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  rogermharris on Fri May 29, 2015 11:41 am

RknRusty wrote:The Ringmaster Cops might not jump him on that. Make sure they aren't hiding behind the bushes first though.

LOL!!

RknRusty wrote:Roger, I see one thing in your diagram that may need attention, the elevator horn holes are not aligned with the hinge line. That's important for equal deflection with no binding. The center of the holes must be exactly over the center of the hinge line.
Rusty


thanks for the input rusty. the control horn in the drawing is just a place holder. it's not to scale or anything but, i will change it in my drawing. it had not come to mind the the holes should be over the hinge line...
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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  getback on Fri May 29, 2015 12:20 pm

Roger Roger Roger Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed lol! Memorial Day  you are Welcome wish I had more this stuff came in a box form the Bay , That was a cute story // Man if you decide to mass produce those Bipe's , work up a price if you can beat 41.00 I would like to have a kit Smoking  didn't know what you were getting into with that laser machine did ya lol!  You are a fine Fellow I will say that Flying  Beer Cheers
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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  rogermharris on Fri May 29, 2015 12:44 pm

once i draw any plan up, it's just a matter of cutting the pieces. it would just be a matter of figuring out the cost of material. i can not wait to build one now! the only thing i remember about this plane was the wings "cupped" the wrong way. not sure if cupped is the right word but basically ended up with inverted polar air foils so over time it looks like this but, it was a heck of a trainer! maybee a brace to stop that from happening...

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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  duke.johnson on Fri May 29, 2015 12:51 pm

If you get into the laser cutting biz, you might get really busy. I'd send you work for cutting ribs, I hate cutting ribs. Depending on the price, I'd be in for a beginner ringmaster bipe too.
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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  pkrankow on Fri May 29, 2015 3:26 pm

rogermharris wrote:once i draw any plan up, it's just a matter of cutting the pieces. it would just be a matter of figuring out the cost of material. i can not wait to build one now!  the only thing i remember about this plane was the wings "cupped" the wrong way. not sure if cupped is the right word but basically ended up with inverted polar air foils so over time it looks like this but, it was a heck of a trainer!  maybee a brace to stop that from happening...


This is caused by how the dope is applied. Dope shrinks, and pulls wood to the hollow side. On plank surfaces it has to be applied to both sides at the same time before drying is allowed to happen. This way the wood stays straight. The effect can be used deliberately as a means to curve a surface too.

With enamel paint there is much less shrinkage so much less effect. With rattle can application both sides can be painted quickly enough that they are still wet at the same time.

Phil
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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

Post  rogermharris on Fri May 29, 2015 3:33 pm

good to know phil!
it was so long ago that i don't recall if it was that way when first built or over time got worse
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Re: 1/2A stunt trainer design

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