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A PVC fuel tank?

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A PVC fuel tank?

Post  rsv1cox on Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:21 pm

Anyone tried it?

Weight an issue, sealing, venting, mounting?



Lot's of possibilities

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Re: A PVC fuel tank?

Post  rogermharris on Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:32 pm

Interesting idea but I would think it's a lot of added weight with the wall thickness they make thinner stuff. Schedule 20 or electrical conduit??

just looked... even electrical conduit is schedule 40 or 80
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Re: A PVC fuel tank?

Post  rogermharris on Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:50 pm

plastic bottle?? mcmaster carr has them in 1oz. and 2 oz
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Re: A PVC fuel tank?

Post  pkrankow on Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:16 pm

Some plastic bottles can have a clunk fitting stuck into them with no effort.

Using a balloon in a plastic bottle is pretty easy to set up as non-pressure bladder.

Phil
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Re: A PVC fuel tank?

Post  Ken Cook on Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:57 pm

Seeing that you opened up the front firewall, I would suggest 1/2" pieces of balsa epoxied between your engine bearers with the grain running perpendicular. Scraps are perfect for this , it doesn't need to be a continuous piece. The "Tuning fork" engine bearers are going to certainly benefit from doing so. Many old build are glued with aliphatic resin type glues that by now are probably more than brittle. Don't run the grain of the 1/2" parallel with the beams. It's not as strong and it doesn't accept glue as well. This will give you a platform for a metal tank. Pipe the tank with all tubes forward. Trace the outline of the tank onto F-1 and make a precise cut. You will now be able to pull the tank in and out of the plane in case of a problem or leak. Ken
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Re: A PVC fuel tank?

Post  rsv1cox on Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:42 pm

The PVC was what I had on-hand Roger, I'm just brainstorming and "cutting and trying" here. I do like that plastic bottle, 1 1/2" wide ought to be ok, 2 5/8 may be a little long, I will have to look. I have some clunks that would work fine in that tank along with (hopefully) the proper seal w/vent and filler tubes.

I do have many metal tanks, but have had bad luck with them leaking. My smallest plastic clunk tank is still to large.

Ken, that is the way I bought the plane. I cut off the electric motor mount as I want to use combustion. The bearers are too short. I will have to find some poplar and L shape them to go along side the bearers extending them and providing securing points for the aluminum cowl. I take your suggestions to heart.

Sorry for the poor pictures, sometimes my camera just goes kaflooie.





The .19 McCoy is actually a better fit than the .15 Enya, may be lighter too. Will have to get out my scales.

I have never bought planes built by someone else, but I'm liking it. At this stage my hands shake quite a bit and aligning everything is a bit of a challenge. This way I get to do the fun part, finishing etc. Smile

Bought this Sopworth Camel from the same consignment shop no doubt built by the same guy that built the F4. No way I could have glued this thing up as well as he did.


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Re: A PVC fuel tank?

Post  roddie on Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:23 pm

Hey Bob, Cool model! (shoot.. DAMMIT! you posted since I started this reply.. but) Any chance you've got an old-style spice tin laying around? Metal tanks only leak when they need to be re-soldered... Laughing Sorry.. I've come to really like soldering!



Some 1/8" copper tubing.. and "you're my uncle"! Most of the tank-work's already done.. and the sizes look to be between 2 to 4 oz's. Make the bottom the front.. and like Ken suggested; run all the tubes out the front so it slides-in. The back (lid-side) can be soldered-shut after all your tubes are soldered-in. Maybe you've got an old automotive oil-pressure gage laying around that has some tubing? Capillary tubing is another possible source. Old broken air conditioners can be cannibalized for their copper tubing coils.



It would make for a worthwhile project that wouldn't cost you much, if you had the materials on hand.
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Re: A PVC fuel tank?

Post  rogermharris on Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:38 pm

Spice tins are a cool idea and like you said roddie... most of the work is done!
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Re: A PVC fuel tank?

Post  cox24711 on Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:37 pm

rogermharris wrote:plastic bottle?? mcmaster carr has them in 1oz. and 2 oz

i've done that works well heres a pic in my glider


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Re: A PVC fuel tank?

Post  Marleysky on Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:30 pm

Sorry for the poor pictures, sometimes my camera just goes kaflooie.

WORD POLICE: how did you get that past spellcheck?? There's a couple ( over on the dictionary forums) that are still debating the correct and true orgins:
"Deborah, Its an exclamation, adjective, noun, and adverb thats usually spelled KABLOOEY or KABLOOIE and is equivalent to KERFLOOEY / KAFLOOEY and KABOOM!. I had always taken the expression TO GO KABLOOEY to mean to go haywire and although Cassells Dictionary of Slang did not provide that definition the Historical Dictionary of American Slang, through synonyms, did (i..e going utterly amiss see below)." And on, an on they go.  

I have never bought planes built by someone else, but I'm liking it.  At this stage my hands shake quite a bit and aligning everything is a bit of a challenge.  This way I get to do the fun part, finishing

That is the way to go Bob. Do what you like and enjoy your projects more! It should, I said, should allow more time for flying..... RC Plane
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Re: A PVC fuel tank?

Post  rsv1cox on Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:19 am

Spell check?  Whatsat?  

My New England origins phonics must have come into play.  Smile  Think JFK pronouncing "Cuba" and "Car."  Smile  

So... I have learned that outside of New Hampshire the "F" is really a "B" as in Kablooey.  I remember my  teen age daughter once telling me how much she enjoyed Ed Zeppelin’s music.  I corrected her.  Years later she thanked me.  “Dad if I ever made that mistake to my friends they never would have let me forget it.”  

I stand corrected. Smile

Bob

roddie, I'm thinking that Anne Page Creme of Tarter might work. Add a little flavor to the fuel maybe. Smile
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Re: A PVC fuel tank?

Post  Ken Cook on Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:37 am

Using tin plate that's been painted is a very very bad idea. You will be plagued with nothing but headaches trying to clean it well enough for solder and it becomes just one more unfavorable contamination. Most of those tins were designed with dry goods inside and the end result is seams that are not locked and soldered. I will also say this, the copper mentioned above works far superior for leadout termination crimps  rather than fuel piping. Capillary tubing is very thick walled and the ID is usually smaller than K&S 1/8" tubing. While it may work fine for 1/2A, I would be concerned with weight and flow. A Dubro 2 oz plastic or Sullivan S-2 is under $5. I would keep in mind that there's a lot of parts in this plane, it's not a profile and a shut off due to a poor tank is going to result in a mess. I've witnessed this many times. I would go for the Mccoy .19. The Mccoy will swing a 8x6 with more authority than the Enya . The Enya doesn't have enough grunt in my opinion to fly this plane. I have built several types of these planes and the Mccoy .19 is the smallest engine I ever used. Here's my Top Flite Thunderbolt Mccoy .19 powered.  This is far lighter than your Corsair and it makes enough power to get the job done. Anymore weight and the Mccoy would be under a good bit of load.  Keep in mind that these planes have very thin and small wings. While your Corsair has open bay framing on the wings, my Thunderbolt is sheeted. My fuse though is formed shells while the Corsair is built up and sheeted. Nonetheless, these planes are heavy for the small amount of wing area they offer.






I had to make a tongue muffler that turned down 90 deg from the exhaust stack. That was a bit challenging and there's very little room inside the cowling. Ken
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Re: A PVC fuel tank?

Post  andrew on Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:00 pm

Here's a post I started over in RCU on converting Fuji Film Canisters to lightweight 1/2A fuel tanks.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/1-2-1-8-airplanes-70/1847112-fuji-film-tank-revisited.html
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Re: A PVC fuel tank?

Post  rsv1cox on Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:54 pm

andrew wrote:Here's a post I started over in RCU on converting Fuji Film Canisters to lightweight 1/2A fuel tanks.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/1-2-1-8-airplanes-70/1847112-fuji-film-tank-revisited.html

Interesting Andrew,  I read the whole thread.  I haven't seen a 35mm film can for years but I bet if I looked around my basement and found my old camera bag there would be several tucked away in there.

Small tubing is elusive.  I'm always looking for the clear vinyl stuff that would pass through the dedicated hole in my tanked Wen Macs and Ok Cub engines.

Nice picture Greg, looks like you did that fuel tank up fine.

Bang that finger with a hammer..........
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Re: A PVC fuel tank?

Post  rsv1cox on Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:43 pm

Before I go much further I want to nail down the engine for this model.  The need for a fuel tank becomes moot if I just use this tanked McCoy .19.  But these non-redhead gated/fenced cylinder McCoys have not been well received.





This .29 McCoy fits like a glove, but I don't have a tank for it.  





But this is a dandy engine that I rebuilt and it has compression that any glow engine fan would love.  

Of the tank options the best bet is the Mcmaster/Carr option.  At 1 1/4" width it just fits between the bearers and the length works well too.

I really want to monocoat the wings with Corsair blue, but I have some nice McCoy .35 redheads that would love this model, only then I would feel compelled to plank the wings.  The kit contains sheet balsa for this purpose.  

Any one know what this tube is for?



Pilot relief maybe?  Smile

Of the two models, the Camel is the more interesting.  But I have learned the hard way, only one project at a time.

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Re: A PVC fuel tank?

Post  roddie on Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:37 pm

Geez Bob.. somehow I missed the biplane. Was it bought the same day? You're a model airplane/engine fiend!!! lol! (a man after my own heart) Sorry to harp on the spice-tin/hard-tank idea.. but I believe it has it's merits.. and if you haven't done much soldering/brazing.. it might be something you'd find enjoyable.. I did.

Ken Cook wrote:Using tin plate that's been painted is a very very bad idea. You will be plagued with nothing but headaches trying to clean it well enough for solder and it becomes just one more unfavorable contamination. Most of those tins were designed with dry goods inside and the end result is seams that are not locked and soldered. I will also say this, the copper mentioned above works far superior for leadout termination crimps  rather than fuel piping. Capillary tubing is very thick walled and the ID is usually smaller than K&S 1/8" tubing. While it may work fine for 1/2A, I would be concerned with weight and flow. A Dubro 2 oz plastic or Sullivan S-2 is under $5. Ken

Yes Ken.. the paint would need to be removed around areas requiring solder.. and the seams are not locked like the preferred "Pittsburg-seam" (ala "Perfect" brand tank construction) that you enlightened me about.. back when I was building my 1st hard-tank for the speed contest. I'm guessing that a locked-seam holds up better under vibration over the course of time. I would think that the seams in a spice-tin would be plenty strong for a sport model.. as long as they're reinforced with a good hot flow of solder. The joint/seam is already formed.. and it's just a matter of heating it up and flowing the solder in. Granted.. I've never used a spice-tin.. but if I were to try it; I'd use a wire-wheel/brush preferably in a dremel-tool to remove the paint around the seams. If it's a shallow tin (2oz. like Bob's considering..) he could easily solder the inside seams as well, with any common 25W pencil-iron. The rear cap should be removed completely.. which would allow all the paint to be removed from it.. as well as the area where it snaps on.

K & S copper-tube plumbing is the way to go.. but if you don't have any.. you can wait until your next parts-order.. or improvise. I bought a coil of "Sunpro" (CP8574) copper tubing at the local automotive parts store that would plumb several hard-tanks.




I'd use a Dubro or Sullivan tank if I had one on hand. Yea they're only around $5.. as are bell-cranks, control-horns, a container of your chosen paint color.. etc. etc. Like many of us; I have several models in various stages building queue.. that will need extra stuff that didn't come with the kit. wheels.. if required.. another 10-20 bucks.. let alone scratch-builds that didn't come with anything. I've always approached building stuff from scratch if possible. It may not last forever.. but what does?
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Re: A PVC fuel tank?

Post  rsv1cox on Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:57 pm

Well, the fuel tank problem is solved. While going though a box of my old stuff I found this Hayes Products 2 oz tank. I will have to remove a bit of the third former to get it to fit, but that's not a problem.



I'm not wild about the forward looking vent and filler, I will have to do some plumbing there.

I'm still agonizing about how to power it. This McCoy .35 fits well, but I'm leaning toward the silver head McCoy .29



Thoughts appreciated.
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Re: A PVC fuel tank?

Post  Marleysky on Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:08 pm

Bob,  I like the silver 29,  BUT, if mounted as shown in the last picture, it'd give you a nice sharp flat spin!!   Silver cowl, silver engine.....Hi, Ho, Silver!

Roddie ,  I can hear your wife now "Roger, have you seen my All spice can??"  You are a modelers modeler! Always looking for alternative uses for everyday items. Now, I gotta go dumpster diving at the Heating and Cooling guys place  for copper tube outa old A/c units  affraid

Additional thoughts on the pilots relief tube, could also be the outlet for the RC receiver antenna, if it was to be set up for RC.  
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Re: A PVC fuel tank?

Post  rsv1cox on Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:26 pm

Marleysky wrote:Bob,  I like the silver 29,  BUT, if mounted as shown in the last picture, it'd give you a nice sharp flat spin!!   Silver cowl, silver engine.....Hi, Ho, Silver!

Yes... The 90 degree thrust effect.  Smile Bob

Additional thoughts on the pilots relief tube, could also be the outlet for the RC receiver antenna, if it was to be set up for RC.  
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Re: A PVC fuel tank?

Post  getback on Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:13 am

Put the red head to work , that's all you will need for power I think  4th of July Flag  have you considered how to mount that tank through the hole ? you will need some foam in there for the vibration and a way to steady it (mount ) If it were mine I would consider cutting a hatch  affraid I know !! Are you going to muffler the engine ? or how is the exhaust getting out the cowling , a lot of things to be considered other than the engine there ?confused  Eric Popcorn
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Re: A PVC fuel tank?

Post  andrew on Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:45 am

It's hard to tell, but the motor mounts look to be balsa. If that's the case, you'll need to make some modifications, particularly if you're planning to run a larger engine.
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Re: A PVC fuel tank?

Post  rsv1cox on Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:28 am

getback wrote:Put the red head to work , that's all you will need for power I think  4th of July Flag  have you considered how to mount that tank through the hole ? you will need some foam in there for the vibration and a way to steady it (mount ) If it were mine I would consider cutting a hatch  affraid I know !! Are you going to muffler the engine ? or how is the exhaust getting out the cowling , a lot of things to be considered other than the engine there ?confused  Eric Popcorn

I will just make an exhaust manifold for it and cut an opening in the spun aluminum cowl like I did on my Nieuport 28's. Easy enough to do.



I'm not having any luck starting that silver head McCoy .29. Can't figure it out, compression, spark, and fuel all in the proper amounts. Same with the red head .19 McCoy. I may not be holding my mouth right. I might have to resort to one of my McCoy Series 21's. Never let me down engines and easy starting.

I plan on using RTV to secure and insulate the tank, a little on the end and around the bearers. I can't get in there to use rubber bands to secure foam and it's a tight fit anyway.

Yes, I believe those rails are balsa, if so that's something else I will have to deal with. I have lots of poplar to epoxy in there.
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