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NFFS Cox Medallion .051 on ebay

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Thinking NFFS Cox Medallion .051 on ebay

Post  happydad on Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:04 pm

Someone is trying to sell a NFFS Cox Medallion .051 s/n 5128 ??  And he says he Has never heard of the authentication papers from NFFS. Would you buy that engine? It is already over $200.00


Edited 4:06 p.m. 9-4-15. : edited to correct s/n of NFFS Medallion .051 engine ??
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Last edited by happydad on Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:08 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : To correct s/n)
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Thinking Re: NFFS Cox Medallion .051 on ebay

Post  cox24711 on Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:31 pm

NO WAY!!!!!!!
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Thinking +1

Post  happydad on Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:37 pm

cox24711 wrote:NO WAY!!!!!!!

+1 for the vote in confidence.

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Thinking Re: NFFS Cox Medallion .051 on ebay

Post  smooth_bill on Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:00 am

Cox only made 258 of the NFFS .051 Medallions, verses 1000 Cox .049 Venoms, so it's still priced dirt cheap in comparison!

All were serial numbered by Bob Beecroft, who maintains a record of the buyers!

I'd love to have one myself, but they usually sell for over $500 each.

Bill
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Thinking Authentication

Post  happydad on Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:09 am

smooth_bill wrote:Cox only made 258 of the NFFS .051 Medallions, verses 1000 Cox .049 Venoms, so it's still priced dirt cheap in comparison!

All were serial numbered by Bob Beecroft, who maintains a record of the buyers!

I'd love to have one myself, but they usually sell for over $500 each.

Bill

Bill: I have seen several of the 258 sold on eBay including one or two sold by Bernie of cox engines.ca. I have seen a sheet called the NFFS  authentication certificate of authenticity in the eBay ads. So if you were selling one why wouldn't you include the authentication. It seems very important to me. More important than the I graving of a four digit number on the side of crankcase. That's my 2cents. Two Cents

edited 11:51p.m. 9-6-15 - to correct the name of one of the papers included with the NFFS Medallion .051 Engines. The certificate of authenticity. Thanks to Bob B. for the correction.
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Last edited by happydad on Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:58 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : to correct the name of the paper included with S/N, certificate of authenticity)
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Thinking Re: NFFS Cox Medallion .051 on ebay

Post  Admin on Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:18 am

I thought they only came with this paper (along with a copy of the manual).


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Thinking Re: NFFS Cox Medallion .051 on ebay

Post  Jason_WI on Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:08 am

Without the correct paperwork one has to assume some risk it's fake. Bid accordingly. Personally I would not bid on that engine.
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Thinking Re: NFFS Cox Medallion .051 on ebay

Post  anm2 on Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:13 am

Jason_WI wrote:Without the correct paperwork one has to assume some risk it's fake. Bid accordingly. Personally I would not bid on that engine.

The guy selling that engine is Ron Valentine. He has a pretty good understanding of Cox engines, and would not knowingly deceive anyone. He is legitimate. Many people on this forum have purchased from him and he has a very good reputation.

As for the paperwork, I wouldn't get wrapped up in that because I am sure many owners threw it away. Additionally, it would be easy to fabricate. There were a couple of lose piston/cylinder combinations (I think two) that were sold on Ebay a couple of years ago, so it is possible that this could be fabricated. Not sure how you would know, or how you would be able to verify it.

There is a website dedicated to these engines. Here it is: http://www.theaerosmith.com

Personally, I wouldn't pay the premium asked for this engine. It was purpose built to be a collectible, and with rare exception never flew in an airplane. For me, that takes the luster off the engine.

Just saying.

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Thinking Authentic ation

Post  happydad on Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:31 am

anm2 wrote:
Jason_WI wrote:Without the correct paperwork one has to assume some risk it's fake. Bid accordingly. Personally I would not bid on that engine.

The guy selling that engine is Ron Valentine.  He has a pretty good understanding of Cox engines, and would not knowingly deceive anyone.  He is legitimate.  Many people on this forum have purchased from him and he has a very good reputation.  

As for the paperwork, I wouldn't get wrapped up in that because I am sure many owners threw it away.  Additionally, it would be easy to fabricate.  There were a couple of lose piston/cylinder combinations (I think two) that were sold on Ebay a couple of years ago, so it is possible that this could be fabricated.  Not sure how you would know, or how you would be able to verify it.  

There is a website dedicated to these engines.  Here it is:  http://www.theaerosmith.com

Personally, I wouldn't pay the premium asked for this engine.  It was purpose built to be a collectible, and with rare exception never flew in an airplane.  For me, that takes the luster off the engine.  

Just saying.
Two Cents

Without the authentication paperwork from  NFFS the engine is worthless to me. That is what the paperwork is for. Anyone can engrave a 4 digit number on the side of the crankcase.
   Just saying. Two Cents

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Thinking Re: NFFS Cox Medallion .051 on ebay

Post  anm2 on Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:45 am

happydad wrote:
anm2 wrote:
Jason_WI wrote:Without the correct paperwork one has to assume some risk it's fake. Bid accordingly. Personally I would not bid on that engine.

The guy selling that engine is Ron Valentine.  He has a pretty good understanding of Cox engines, and would not knowingly deceive anyone.  He is legitimate.  Many people on this forum have purchased from him and he has a very good reputation.  

As for the paperwork, I wouldn't get wrapped up in that because I am sure many owners threw it away.  Additionally, it would be easy to fabricate.  There were a couple of lose piston/cylinder combinations (I think two) that were sold on Ebay a couple of years ago, so it is possible that this could be fabricated.  Not sure how you would know, or how you would be able to verify it.  

There is a website dedicated to these engines.  Here it is:  http://www.theaerosmith.com

Personally, I wouldn't pay the premium asked for this engine.  It was purpose built to be a collectible, and with rare exception never flew in an airplane.  For me, that takes the luster off the engine.  

Just saying.
Two Cents

Without the authentication paperwork from  NFFS the engine is worthless to me. That is what the paperwork is for. Anyone can engrave a 4 digit number on the side of the crankcase.
   Just saying. Two Cents

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That's true, however, anyone with a computer can print off the the paperwork too. In fact, it is easier to print off the authentication paperwork than it is to engrave the engine. The authentication paperwork wasnt authentication paperwork at all, it was a note that was put in each of the engine boxes when they were shipped. Anyone who is conceded with the authenticity of the engine should email Ron, and ask him to verify if it is a single bypass .051. I am sure he would be willing to do that.

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Thinking Re: NFFS Cox Medallion .051 on ebay

Post  balogh on Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:58 am

Admin wrote:I thought they only came with this paper (along with a copy of the manual).


A once bought a 051 Medallion piston on ebay but it seems to have a larger dia than that of a 051 TD piston. It also has the groove at the piston skirt bottom.I could never use it in my 051TD-s.

If anyone is interested in getting it pls PM me.
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Thinking Re: NFFS Cox Medallion .051 on ebay

Post  crankbndr on Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:47 am

It's the cylinder that is rare not the piston two bypass with boost flute like Killer Bee
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Thinking Re: NFFS Cox Medallion .051 on ebay

Post  balogh on Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:33 am

The - allegeadly Medallion 051 -piston I am talking about has actually 2 grooves on the skirt:




Anybody has seen such and knows what engine it is for? It is a bit larger in diameter and a tad longer than the TD051, also pictured.
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Thinking Re: NFFS Cox Medallion .051 on ebay

Post  anm2 on Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:37 am

balogh wrote:The - allegeadly Medallion 051 -piston I am talking about has actually 2 grooves on the skirt:




Anybody has seen such and knows what engine it is for? It is a bit larger in diameter and a tad longer than the TD051, also pictured.

That is a Killer Bee Piston.

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Thinking Re: NFFS Cox Medallion .051 on ebay

Post  balogh on Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:39 am

How come then it is larger than a TD051 piston? Did the Killer Bee have a different cylinder bore than the TD051? I do not think so but may be mistaken.
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Thinking Re: NFFS Cox Medallion .051 on ebay

Post  Mark Boesen on Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:02 am

Interesting post, personally the engine doesn't flip my switch as much as a early NIB Black widow or RR-1 would. If you look at the box you'll a number written on the top left, it would be interesting to see if others had the same marker on the box. Hopefully Bob will respond, it does look like two different engravers?



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Thinking Authenticity

Post  happydad on Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:51 am

Mark Boesen wrote:Interesting post, personally the engine doesn't flip my switch as much as a early NIB Black widow or RR-1 would. If you look at the box you'll a number written on the top left, it would be interesting to see if others had the same marker on the box. Hopefully Bob will respond, it does look like two different engravers?





Wow I appreciate all the feedback over this issue. I see some of you are as concerned as I was. I emailed the person in question who was responsible for serialization and tracking of the NFFS engines    from NFFS   to see if he would respond. He responded to me when I purchased the Medallion .051 Ghost a while back, see other posts. I will not divulge his name unless he responds or posts himself here as he has in the past.
   For now I will say thanks again for all the comments and especially the pictures Mark.

edited 12:04a.m. 9-7-15 to correct Bob B.'s relationship or not to NFFS.

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Last edited by happydad on Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:05 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : to correct NFFS relationship or not)
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Thinking Re: NFFS Cox Medallion .051 on ebay

Post  crankbndr on Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:45 pm

What is a Ghost Medallion?
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Thinking Ghost Medallion

Post  happydad on Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:05 pm

crankbndr wrote:What is a Ghost Medallion?

The Ghost Medallion is the name given to my Medallion .051 that did not have the groove on the piston or the proper #7 cylinder. Mine had a cylinder that was ground with a RC sleeve. I forgot what it was. I guess it would have to be a #7 because the .051 piston, see other post ghost medallion, fit and another .051 "Medallion .051 piston" sort of verified by a former CEF member and discussed by myself and the NFFS expert Bob B. fit also. So the name Ghost.
   According to Bob there could be up to 300 - 258 or 42 other partial sets of NFFS Medallion .051 engines out there that could have been assembled with some other parts to make a complete engine. No one to my knowledge has ever said what parts were short for the build of 300 NFFS engines. It could have been crank cases, drive plates, or most anything in 1996 when the engines were built, I think that was the year. And that's my 2 cents. Two Cents

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Thinking No

Post  happydad on Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:09 pm

anm2 wrote:
happydad wrote:
anm2 wrote:
Jason_WI wrote:Without the correct paperwork one has to assume some risk it's fake. Bid accordingly. Personally I would not bid on that engine.

The guy selling that engine is Ron Valentine.  He has a pretty good understanding of Cox engines, and would not knowingly deceive anyone.  He is legitimate.  Many people on this forum have purchased from him and he has a very good reputation.  

As for the paperwork, I wouldn't get wrapped up in that because I am sure many owners threw it away.  Additionally, it would be easy to fabricate.  There were a couple of lose piston/cylinder combinations (I think two) that were sold on Ebay a couple of years ago, so it is possible that this could be fabricated.  Not sure how you would know, or how you would be able to verify it.  

There is a website dedicated to these engines.  Here it is:  http://www.theaerosmith.com

Personally, I wouldn't pay the premium asked for this engine.  It was purpose built to be a collectible, and with rare exception never flew in an airplane.  For me, that takes the luster off the engine.  

Just saying.
Two Cents

Without the authentication paperwork from  NFFS the engine is worthless to me. That is what the paperwork is for. Anyone can engrave a 4 digit number on the side of the crankcase.
   Just saying. Two Cents

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That's true, however, anyone with a computer can print off the the paperwork too.  In fact, it is easier to print off the authentication paperwork than it is to engrave the engine.   The authentication paperwork wasnt authentication paperwork at all, it was a note that was put in each of the engine boxes when they were shipped.  Anyone who is conceded with the authenticity of the engine should email Ron, and ask him to verify if it is a single bypass .051.  I am sure he would be willing to do that.  

Actually I don't think that would work. I believe that the paperwork was signed, dated and the S/N was recorded by hand. That would require forgery.
P.s. Which Ron are you referring to?  Bob B?
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Thinking eBay NFFS Special-serial number 5128; some thoughts. Beecroft

Post  theaerosmith on Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:17 am

Gentlemen:

I recognize there are some folks out there who are highly expert with the NFFS Special .051 Medallion motors. Some may have instant recall of many details that I may have to dig into the records for...or pull up Martin Hepperle's extraordinary site. It is 100% accurate, the data written from several exchanges and a motor I supplied, sold at cost, a very long deal, a lucky find. I defer to Martin's site often as it's simply the best. There are comments about Serial 5128 all over the map. With deference to the many experts, I'd like to offer some comments from a perhaps unique perspective, having been involved from handshake contract to mailing them all over the world.

128 was shipped USPS PM 12-14-96, one of two this Sunnyvale, CA freeflighter got. (I'll give the name to the buyer if he's interested in the history).

The engraver needed adjusting on this one-hence the light tooling marking. The box felt-tip marker number is my poor penmanship...all 258 boxes were similarly marked, all with the same Marks-A-Lot pen.

I wouldn't hesitate investing in this motor.

Should anyone be interested, I'll be happy to provide laser printed inserts to replace missing or deteriorated sheets. A SASE would be nice. Too, I'll be happy to supply a signed Certificate of Authenticity...very official looking, and in pen...no Marks-A-Lot ;-) For the certificate, I need to see the motor...please include a postage paid return label.

Bob Beecroft
3488 Linda Vista Terrace
Fallbrook, CA 92028
Bob@theaerosmith.com

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Thinking thanks

Post  happydad on Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:30 am

theaerosmith wrote:Gentlemen:

I recognize there are some folks out there who are highly expert with the NFFS Special .051 Medallion motors.  Some may have instant recall of many details that I may have to dig into the records for...or pull up Martin Hepperle's extraordinary site.   It is 100% accurate, the data written from several exchanges and a motor I supplied, sold at cost, a very long deal, a lucky find.  I defer to Martin's site often as it's simply the best.  There are comments about Serial 5128 all over the map.   With deference to the many experts, I'd like to offer some comments from a perhaps unique perspective, having been involved from handshake contract to mailing them all over the world.

128 was shipped USPS PM 12-14-96, one of two this Sunnyvale, CA freeflighter got.  (I'll give the name to the buyer if he's interested in the history).

The engraver needed adjusting on this one-hence the light tooling marking.  The box felt-tip marker number is my poor penmanship...all 258 boxes were similarly marked, all with the same Marks-A-Lot pen.

I wouldn't hesitate investing in this motor.

Should anyone be interested, I'll be happy to provide laser printed inserts to replace missing or deteriorated sheets.  A SASE would be nice.  Too, I'll be happy to supply a  signed Certificate of Authenticity...very official looking, and in pen...no Marks-A-Lot ;-)  For the certificate, I need to see the motor...please include a postage paid return label.

Bob Beecroft
3488 Linda Vista Terrace
Fallbrook, CA 92028
Bob@theaerosmith.com


Bob: Thank you for the clarifications and for commenting here.

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Thinking Re: NFFS Cox Medallion .051 on ebay

Post  Admin on Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:31 am

Very nice! Thank you for coming on and sorting this out. Hand Shake

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Thinking Authentification paper-051 Medallion...

Post  theaerosmith on Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:27 pm

Papers-I have provided a certificate of authenticity for several collectors. Seemed like a reasonable thing to do. I guess that'd be "papers from NFFS", though done on my own. Nobody in NFFS has any connection with the motors. I chose to keep the records and have tried to keep the story straight as well as help with replacement "At Last" letters, etc. (Those letters were duplicated at a local drugstore, a terrible thermal process copier, the paper starting to turn brown and brittle as I was sending the engines out. The replacement is heat-set laser on acid-free bond. A certificate of authenticity the same, but I need to see the engine for one of those.

Anyway, that's the story on "NFFS certification", just my choice to stay involved, and no NFFS involvement.

I read somewhere here that someone had a letter of authenticity from someone in NFFS about a "Ghost" Medallion. THAT's bogus. I do wish that Estes had destroyed the 42 pistons and liners.

Bob

happydad wrote:Someone is trying to sell a NFFS Cox Medallion .051 s/n 5128 ??  And he says he Has never heard of the authentication papers from NFFS. Would you buy that engine? It is already over $200.00


Edited 4:06 p.m. 9-4-15. : edited to correct s/n of NFFS Medallion .051 engine ??
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Thinking the Ghost Medallion .049

Post  happydad on Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:59 pm

theaerosmith wrote:Papers-I have provided a certificate of authenticity for several collectors.  Seemed like a reasonable thing to do. I guess that'd be "papers from NFFS", though done on my own.  Nobody in NFFS has any connection with the motors.  I chose to keep the records and have tried to keep the story straight as well as help with replacement "At Last" letters, etc.  (Those letters were duplicated at a local drugstore, a terrible thermal process copier, the paper starting to turn brown and brittle as I was sending the engines out.  The replacement is heat-set laser on acid-free bond.  A certificate of authenticity the same, but  I need to see the engine for one of those.

Anyway, that's the story on "NFFS certification", just my choice to stay involved, and no NFFS involvement.

I read somewhere here that someone had a letter of authenticity from someone in NFFS about a "Ghost" Medallion.   THAT's bogus.  I do wish that Estes had destroyed the 42 pistons and liners.

Bob  

happydad wrote:Someone is trying to sell a NFFS Cox Medallion .051 s/n 5128 ??  And he says he Has never heard of the authentication papers from NFFS. Would you buy that engine? It is already over $200.00


Edited 4:06 p.m. 9-4-15. : edited to correct s/n of NFFS Medallion .051 engine ??
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Bob: I never meant to imply that the Ghost Medallion .051 engine, (my name), was ever authenticated or have I ever asked for it to be. It is a parts and pieces engine with an unmarked/ungrooved .051 piston as comparison measured against a TD .051 piston and one of the former CEF member "engine049"'s unconfirmed .051 pistons and a cylinder that matches this piston and seems to be a .051 version of #7 with the proper exhaust fluting.  See other postings on CEF.
   As far as the connection to NFFS as far as I knew, until you corrected me you were the only connection I was aware of to NFFS. My apologies.  
  In the past when another NFFS Medallion .051 sold on ebay I saw in the sellers pictures a page that showed the S/N, a handwritten signature and other information I couldn't exactly recall.  
  Again I apologize for any misunderstandings on my part. I was only trying to find out from other CEF members if they recalled anything similar.

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