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Question for Ken Cook and any one else with an opinion Empty

Question for Ken Cook and any one else with an opinion

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Question for Ken Cook and any one else with an opinion Empty Question for Ken Cook and any one else with an opinion

Post  fredvon4 Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:45 pm

I am building several planes that I would like to use hard tanks on.

I don't have the patience and dexterity to open and fix tin tanks...I know I know--- Ken and others will insist they all need opened, fixed, cleaned and re-soldered...I an willing to pay someone to do this but I simply can not do it anymore

I am looking for size, configuration, and brand advice on tanks for the following airplanes
Model numbers would be nice

I have a S1 Ringmaster to finish this winter powered by Fox 35..
??What Brodak or other vendor tank works well?

I have 2 Riley Wooten Demons, one with OS FX 25 and bladder and the second one I want to put a Fox MKVI on the nose but needs a inside the wing tank...
??What Brodak tank will fit in the diamond airfoil area?

I have several Mongoose with bladder but want to set one up as per original kit with Fox 36x and VECO T-28A 3oz. There is  2"  3/8th" from LE to back of engine  
same ??

I have yet to build a replacement for the VooDoo I re-kitted and am waiting to see I Riley does in fact re-issue new kits (we are hoping he does)..
That said I have enough pre-cut parts to scratch build a few VooDoos and would like to do one with hard tank also

??same question?

I prefer tin tanks BUT not too biased against plastic clunk tanks

UniFlo---chicken Hopper---standard vent doesn't matter much to me as long as they will let me start and run the engine a fly the plane as intended

I really need to know what fits, and not too terribly concerned is they will run a full 5 minuets or do a full pattern

None of these planes are for ANY competition flights
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Post  Ken Cook Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:04 pm

Fred, there's a lot of information to be heard from myself and also required from you. For starters, I will probably end up with carpal tunnel if I type all of your requested info. I will be brief as possible. Just for the record I have little patience for stuff that doesn't work. This is why I investigate inside to insure against stupid problems that consume my valued time. Those who don't take things apart, they will some day. There's really not a whole lot to say about a Ring. Personally, I feel you will have more than enough fly time with 3.5 ounces. That being said, A Brodak BH-597 is my choice. This fits on the nose with enough room. It also has it's fuel pickup under the tank allowing a straighter shot to the needle valve and a piece of fuel tubing less than 2" long. I use muffler pressure with this tank over uniflow. I don't use uniflow on the Fox due to vibration problems, that's just me though. A chicken hopper could be substituted and I've seen these work terrifically on the Ring with a Fox .35. I like Hopper tanks, I hate fixing them cause it's a major pain in the rear end. If the hopper is your choice go to Eric Rule and get the GRW. Buy any other and your going to regret it.

The Brodak tank has ribs to stiffen the metal on the BH-597 deep wedge. Due to flexing from rubber bands over the tank and repeated filling I've seen the tank crack directly on these ribs. It won't happen immediately, it probably will though at some point.

As for tanks, 1" high tanks typically 2" wide are sized by length. If you have a 4" tank, you have a 4 oz. tank. The T-28 was a common tank. Brodak catalog probably and more than likely cross references Perfect and Veco size tanks. A MK VI is going to be extremely heavy on the nose of a Demon unless you make a long boom version. If this is a Blackhawk kit, your going to fold the plane on it's first flight out unless you redesign it as the MK VI is 4 times more powerful than the engines of the period. A tank could be made to fit, but it will probably be sticking out of the wing. This means making tank fairings around it. A tank may fit, but I don't generally use tanks in wings due to them being problematic. When I say problematic, I mean fuel feed issues in hard g maneuvers.

Any Mongoose I ever flew or witnessed had a chicken hopper on the nose. A GRW 325C is exactly 2 3/8". Shave a flat on your leading edge, sink the tank into it a bit and glue a piece of 1/8" ply on the engine side of the tank. Best Mongoose tank you can have. Extend the fill and also the uniflow pipes by using fuel tubing about 1 1/2" long and leave them rest directly on the cylinder head. It gets the pipes into cleaner air due to the cylinder head causing turbulent air as it spills over the cylinder. Remember, when you set your needle, you don't do it conventionally like a stunt model on it's gear. Pick the plane up nose high and cocked outboard of the circle. Peak the engine and then needle it back to where it's bouncing in and out of a wet two.

        The problem with hard tanks in a wing are the fact that commercial tanks generally have the fill on top and overflow on bottom. You can't have pipes hanging down on a wing as you will damage them and the tank needs to be reworked. A Brodak A.T.F. tank can be modified to work but this is what you didn't want to do. Probably the only tank that would've fit the Voodoo properly and work properly was the Veco pressure tanks. They were just nice tanks. Similar tanks could easily be made and this would take a little homework on size but if need be, I could build that tank for you if you provided me with the basic tank. If you do find a Veco tank like mentioned, it more than likely is corroded to hell inside.

    I always suggest standard vent to most people. This doesn't suit many, but it's the easiest and it's  a no brainer to figure out. As their skills improve, I suggest moving onto uniflow. Seeing your list of planes here, I don't see the apparent need for uniflow but if your satisfied with runs that lean out throughout the flight, stick with standard vent. That being said, a uniflow tank can be run in standard configuration, muffler pressure, uniflow to the atmosphere. You have 3 choices in one tank. It's entirely up to you .
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Post  Cribbs74 Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:10 pm

If you are totally opposed to soldering then GRW tanks are the way to go according to Ken.

Brodak tanks should be gone through. I have had success with Brodak tanks, but they have been reworked (By Ken)

As to the style, you can go a lot of ways. I have seen tanks that shouldn't work, work and really good tanks that stink.

Ken will probably chime in soon.

Edit: nevermind he already did while I was writing.
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Post  balogh Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:47 am

Sorry for coming in with an idea from the R/C world, but unless a balloon tank is a no-go in C/L competition or wherever you have problems with metallic tanks, I could not imagine a better design than a party balloon with a rubber stopper for 2 plastic tubes entering the tank,1 fuel supply and 1 filler pipe inlet (only 2 connections) that does not require a vent, flies inverted without sophisticated internal piping or heavy clunks, prevents foaming of fuel, and fits in any empty,vacant space inside your plane near the firewall, center of gravity permitting.
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Question for Ken Cook and any one else with an opinion Empty Thanks Ken, Ron, and Balogh

Post  fredvon4 Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:54 am

Mucho thanks fellows exactly the info I needed to start the acquisition

Yes I have considered a Balloon set up too, and may experiment a bit with that option

I had forgot about RSM Distribution (Erik Rule) who sold me one of his beautiful 1/2a Stuka laser kits has tanks.

The Brodak site has 196 options but you have to click on each one to get dimensions and no cross reference(That I could find...I suspect I could call and they can tell me what tank is replacement for a plan call out of Veco or Perfect tank from yester year

Ken I agree the BlackHawk Demon double kit wing is weak as designed for the hog on the nose.  I happen to have a few of (6) Mk-IVs and MK-VIs from Marvin Denny's junk barrel. Some of them were set up for "slow combat" and have JB welded in venturi / NVA to run on suction

The problem with hard tank inside the Demon diamond airfoil wing is as you noted, the PITA if it need fixing, and the available free space to fit one (only 1" tall between the upper and lower spar and the taper to the front down to 1/2") Unfortunately I don't have original plan so don't know what hard tank they used to put in there and the BH kits have no recommendation. I may ask Riley Wooten what he used in the past

As I will not be competing with it, I will just make the wing heavy with plenty of shear webbing on TE, between spars and laminate the entire 1/2" square LE with Carbon veil and TOW ....I may even do the LE with harder wood than is in the KIT.  And since I have a lot of that size spar materiel in Bass wood or Spruce I will use the heavier spar stock and already planned to extend the booms to balance it
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Post  Ken Cook Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:27 pm

Fred, are you opposed to a bladder tube inside the wing? I have a 6" long bladder tube inside my Demon. It's totally concealed and it handles 4oz+ no problem. The MK VI uses a good bit of fuel and fast. The tanks you seek are going to be 1" high. You will need to make a tank compartment in the wing by adding a rib on each side of the tank followed by some trimmers alongside the tank's sides. The tank will be flush to the top of the sheeting and as the diamond airfoil protrudes down to the leading edge, the tank will be sticking out and above the sheeting. There's not a lot of room in there for a decent flight with the engine your opting to use. Personally, A Fox .35 on a Demon will get the Demon into the 85 MPH + range. Not a good flyer in terms of maneuverability but it goes like hell on the level.

I would seek a set of foam wings 550 sq and make a profile body and mount that MK VI on the nose with a 4.5 oz chicken hopper. You will have a blast with it. Make a plug in wing with external controls so in the event of gravity surges, you can plug a new wing right back in and go fly. Phil Cartier used to offer a kit like I mentioned for these engines. Ken
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Post  fredvon4 Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:35 am

Thanks Ken

The first Demon has bladder fed OS 25 FX on the nose and I opted to just box in and seal the outboard rib bay for a bladder. I used thinned epoxy and making sure no sharp burs inside the compartment...In other words I did not try to fix florescent safety tube bladder compartment. Pretty much replicated how we do it in a foam wing with fill on top and small drain out bottom in case of bladder burst.

Some of the planes I will build were intended to have pacifier tank and I have Vienna sausage cans prepped to form the humped compartment

Several (3) of the MK-IVs with MK-VI internals from Marvin are intended for suction from a tank and he did a great job of JB welding the venturi and NVA...I may just save then for some of the other planes I have to build and put a Magnum 25 on the nose of the second Demon

Regarding the Phil Cartier Texas Slow type planes---I got a wing set from Jeff and complete one on e-bay and partial one from a SH member, just have not built any of them yet. I also have not built the Core House RST yet

Of course I have a hanger with half dozen of Jeff's Fast combat wings the Fox and Nelson 36s set up for bladder work with

My desire to build a few of Mathis and Wooten other 50s 60s combat planes is progressing but I don't have the desire to source old Johnson, early Fox, or other engines of that era so I am just going to use what I have and adjust for power and weight

Most (ALL) of these are intended to sport fly and perhaps show off at one or more of the vintage days around the country ...Providing I can ever learn how to finish a plane to look as good as some I have seen You and others show off on SH Vintage combat thread
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