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My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  JPvelo on Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:11 pm

Rusty,

I love DC enamel, goes on nice and looks better dry than wet, and it's rock hard after 12 hours. You can paint more coats/other colors after 12 hours IF YOU APPLY VERY LIGHT MIST COATS, ABOUT 5 MINUTES APART. Get everything covered with the mist coats then lay it on like normal. Skip the mist coats and you'll have alligator skin on your airplane. Or you can let it cure for seven days if you are blessed with more patience than me.

Jim
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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  RknRusty on Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:41 pm

JPvelo wrote:Rusty,

I love DC enamel, goes on nice and looks better dry than wet, and it's rock hard after 12 hours. You can paint more coats/other colors after 12 hours IF YOU APPLY VERY LIGHT MIST COATS, ABOUT 5 MINUTES APART. Get everything covered with the mist coats then lay it on like normal. Skip the mist coats and you'll have alligator skin on your airplane. Or you can let it cure for seven days if you are blessed with more patience than me.

Jim
Sounds a lot like the stuff I used. If I'm not mistaken it's more fuel resistant too. When I was ready to do the first priming, everybody around me was raving about DC-540, so that's the first reason I got the matching lacquer. Then I just wanted to try something different, and later read that it's the comparative lightest of the many DC blends. The fuelproof part makes the enamel look good. As I've said before, I don't fret too much over paint weight.

I just finished painting the elevators. I got one minor sag on the pretty side, so I laid it horizontally to dry, hoping it'll flatten out.
Later,
Rusty

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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  JPvelo on Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:08 pm

If it's anything like the enamel you'll be surprised how well the sag flattens out.
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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  RknRusty on Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:52 am

Last check before heading to the beach.
I weighed .8 oz. on the painted elevators, so the weight is looking good. Main airframe 19.9 + .8 + painted flaps + LG + engine + tank and bolts, one long CF linkage & control horns,... am I missing anything? Tip weight is already in it. I think I'm on target for the 40 oz. range.

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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  ian1954 on Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:25 am

Undercarriage?
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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  getback on Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:31 pm

Huh... Beers Crazy Eyes Damn! Friends/Meeting Sh*t Hit The Fan Phone Phone Sleeping at Computer Fireworks Sounds like yur on time there      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWTLUmUjo8A


Last edited by getback on Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  RknRusty on Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:26 pm

Time for an update. I posted this in the open forum on SH too.

This is the airframe I was building when I did the three jigging videos. Two of the three are on Walter Umland's site near the bottom of the page here: http://www.builtrightflyright.com/MiscPgs/AlignJigSet/AlignJigSet01a.htm
The stab jig video isn't on there yet. Right now I'm at that point where "The devil's in the details" gets tedious. My goal is a very capable and dependable Profile PA ship, so I've been meticulous with that in mind. It looks like I'm going to hit the mark pretty close on weight.

I'm in the process of silk-spanning the flaps right now, so after they're painted and hinges glued, I can spray the trim colors and apply the decals. Then hook up the linkages, bolt on the power plant and LG and go fly. Sounds like a week, but as usual it'll probably be two.
So here's a question: I have some tissue(ran out of silk span), and it seems stronger than silk span which I would think is good for the flaps. It has an obvious grain because it resists tearing much more in one direction. Should I run the grain lengthwise from end to end of the flaps, or crosswise? I can conceive of arguments to support both ways. Thanks for any tips on that.

Here are the two sets of plans I have for it. I'm using the one for the FP.35/.40, but there are hardly any differences. I hope it's as light as projected, I'd like to use the fp.35, because the tank cutout fits a new 3-1/2 oz. Uniflow tank I have. But after Bob Z. modded my fp.40 head, It may very well run on the small tank too.

Okay, hope y'all approve of my work. I have pics of it all in case anyone is curious about some other part of the model I haven't included here.
Rusty

Here's some pics and a couple more questions.
These pics are hosted on Photobucket. After opening a thumbnail, I think if you see a gray and white magnifying glass to the right of the picture, click it and you'll get a huge version for a closer look. You can see all my blems that way.


This fuselage came in the kit as two pieces to be laminated. My buddy Wayne Robinson built the fuse and sandwiched carbon fabric between the halves. He covered the whole fuse with light fiberglass and dope. After he built the fuse, he turned it over to me to me to finish the wing and rest of the kit.
I really like the sleek razorback look rather than the bubble canopy.
Now look at the 4th rib from center. Someone whacked it and it's chipped under the covering. Maybe it was me. At least I haven't dropped a screwdriver through it yet.



That white DC Lacquer is pretty bright and reflective. It might be heavier than dope, but it seems like the lightest paint I've ever used. I have blue red and black for trim colors.

Questions: Should I wet sand it before masking and spraying the trim colors on? Or wait until it's all painted, and wet sand before the clear dope?


I love the outboard tripler on the nose. Not only extra strength and resistance to vibrations, but at first glance, the recessed tank and engine will look like a full fuselage.


Here's a look at the fillets. Microballoons and eopxy.


The Stab fillet. I forgot I had 1/4" triangle stock for the underside, but I think the fillet will serve the same purpose. I'd already put it on there before I remembered.


Here is my only mistake so far as I can tell... the control rod hole is too far aft, so I have to move it forward and try not to ugly it up in the process. Another headslapper. GRRRRR!


My painting supplies.

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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  pkrankow on Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:38 am

Diagonal on the grain.  Lengthwise is probably second best.  I'm not sure if there is a vast difference on flaps either way.

Looking good.  

You might want to try making a fairing to cover the push rod exit if you think the hole got ugly.  I think it looks OK, but I have never built for a competition concourse front line finish.  It can be attached with a couple small screws afterwards but it should be painted at the same time so the colors match best.  It can be a heat gun molding of plastic around a plug, or it can be fiberglass and epoxy around a plug, or even carved shaped balsa, or some combination of these.

I have mixed feelings about the canopy, but that might be because it is not in paint like the rest. I am sure it will look excellent when you are done.

Phil
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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  RknRusty on Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:30 am

pkrankow wrote:Diagonal on the grain.
Yes, that's it. Makes a lot of sense, 45 degrees fanning out from the hinge lines toward the tips. Thanks Phil.
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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  Ken Cook on Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:31 pm

Rusty, domestic tissue will give you practically no strength. Once it gets wet, it turns to mush and you have little to no time to place it. If you slide it, it's going to rip. If your using it to hide the wood grain, you would have much better results using Jap tissue. It offers a bit more workability over regular tissue and one side is already somewhat sealed. One thing you should be keeping in mind is that in order to do the pattern your going to need a minimum of 4 oz's and that's even close. Your tank cutouts should be based around your useage. Seeing that you have LA .46's and Fp.40's 4-4.5 is the norm. If your tank is less than your pushing the issue. You will find that if it works or just gets you through the pattern now in the summer, nearing fall you will fall very short and probably begin running out of fuel as you near the overhead or even in the overhead 8. Cutting your nitro back to 5% will yield a few laps, and running a slightly larger prop can offer less rpm's but it could also load the engine too much.

I very rarely color sand prior to trim colors. I mask, spray the tape edge with clear and proceed. I do have some concerns for your clear though. Very rarely can you spray Brodak dope without using retarder especially now in the humid weather. It will blush and it can also cause the underlying DC coats to blister especially around fillet areas due to the top drying first and trapping in the solvents. If you do spray, I would do it in the later evening. As I always tell everyone, Brodak thinner is medium, it dries fast compared to Sig and it will trap moisture in causing bad blushing. This is why you need the retarder. I wouldn't spray it on the model at first, I would do a test panel and wait 1/2 hour and see what it's doing.
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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  RknRusty on Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:52 pm

I'll test a piece of that tissue and see what happens. I do have enough silkspan, but it's the old yellow stuff from my Yak-9 kit. I'm looking for extra strength plus hiding wood grain. I have filled it pretty well with sanding sealer, and sanded it back down but not quite all the way to the wood. Maybe I could get away with skipping the paper and not sanding the primer as aggressively.

I'm going out now to do some work on it, catch y'all later,
Rusty

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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  RknRusty on Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:14 am

The last piece is made! Fireworks
I got tired of sanding so I only painted one flap white today, and I'll finish the other one tomorrow. Then I can shoot clear on the flaps and elevators and glue their hinges. All the controls are made up, but they'll wait for the trim colors to be applied just for the sake of convenience.

I painted a test board white before I painted the first flap this afternoon, so I'll practice on that with clear dope in the Preval sprayer and get the hang of it. And also confirm that it really is as compatible as my research indicated. Wayne suggested I thin the Brodak butyrate clear by 60% for the Preval. Now, after dusting on the first two coats of clear, how many more coats should I add? And in the past when I've used Lustrekote clear, I always spray more on the front end where fuel spillage is most likely. How much more should I apply in that area?

Boy I'm tired of sanding. I used 220, 320, and 800. After priming I was worried about how much grain I could see, but after sanding, the DC540 had filled it in like magic. The white is very forgiving paint too. It goes on so thin and covers so well, it can make anyone look like a pro.

Thanks for all of the advice throughout this build. I've been saving my "Thanks" button all this time, and I wish I could use it for more than one of you, but I'll review the whole thread and pick someone to anonomously crown with the rep points. And Greenies will be liberally distributed too. I could not have done as good of a job without the huge amount of input from everyone who's posted in this thread.
Rusty

The front flap in the picture is now in the cool dry house with the white paint curing.

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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  Ken Cook on Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:31 am

I will just chime in my experience with the Preval sprayer. In my opinion it's too small not offering enough spray pattern.  It will work but your going to be faced with a few problems, first, the press of the button is not controllable initially. If spraying outdoors, your more than likely going to have to stay closer to the model due to wind and spray pattern. This can cause very uneven overlap strokes. Spray one direction side to side, then oppose it when coming back to keep a wet edge at all times.  The clear is going to want to splatter out on pushing the button down and releasing. So spray into the air first and come into your model. I stated this earlier, if you don't have the retarder, don't be surprised that the clear comes out milky due to blushing, let's keep our fingers crossed.

Dope takes repeated coats. There's a very good chance that when your spraying your not going to be able to keep a wet edge where the overspray dries on the existing coats. You may have to wait a day , lightly knock off the sandy gritty overspray with some  400-600 grit  and respray. Fresh dope can sometimes clog paper badly which is why I suggested the aggressive jump between grits.  Dope will melt right back into itself. I would spray about 3-5 coats of clear on the plane. I would also prior to using the contents of the bottle, spray areas such as the nose a additional time every time you spray the plane. Edges, they need to be cleared using additional coats equally. You have to be careful though when dusting edges, you will blow overspray across your flat surfaces revealing a sand dull flat look. My suggestion would be to first go around and spray all edges FIRST, then go into the main flats. If blushing occurs, it's not the end of the world. It just means that you picked a bad day to paint but if you do have a window of a less humid day and you spray again. This can release the underlying blush and it can also be trapped within the new coat.  It will be a lot less and your white may not show it unless your in direct sunlight. You will know when it blushes though because it will be very milky with no shine too it.
 
                Let me just add intersections, don't lay the dope heavy at any of these areas. They will naturally shine above all other areas due to dope settling into them from the verticals. It can also blister these areas due to too much dope and solvents being trapped there. Fillets don't require a lot of paint and when the dope shrinks from drying, it can cause a bit of a tug of war in these areas. Spray just enough to coat.


                Spray a light misting coat, coat all surfaces, come back in 10 minutes, spray again, spend some time in and around the areas I mentioned, grab points, edges, nose area, etc. Let the plane sit. Place the model in the sun, this will lay down the dope and dry it faster and can eliminate blush. It also helps to lock in the shine. Unless something is jumping out at you as far as rough spots, I wouldn't knock down the model with paper, I would continue to spray. The whole idea is to build coats, not take them off. Spray again the following day keeping a mental note of where you experienced problems on the initial spraying. The majority of the dope is solvent so the weight is going to evaporate. Dope is very forgiving and can easily be repaired due to the high solvent content melting back into itself. If you want to further your fuel resistance, take the plane to a body shop and have them spray just the nose with auto urethane. I use two part urethane on the exhaust side and tank area. I just spray a touch of it.

               While you will see initial shine, you will note that by the 3rd coat, the shine consistency will be far flatter and greater. If this suits your needs, by all means go fly. I would though wax the front end prior to fueling. If Brodak dope gets on the clear it will turn it milky white and eventually it will wash it off. Keep raw fuel off of it. Place extensions on your overflow vent to get it away from the plane. If you have fuel on your hands, wipe it off prior to handling the model.

                Keep in mind though dope is not going to give you that new car like shine. It's going to be dull. It will have somewhat of a shine. If your looking for that bright new car look, well your in for a real experience. This requires a lot of patience. This takes a lot of time of wet sanding and polishing. I use Brasso and a old sock. The plane will have to sit for almost two weeks. Sand using 1000, 1500 , 2000 in soapy water wiping it off and noting how much orange peel you have due to the sprayer. When knocked down flat, you will have a continuous dull looking model with even sanding scratches. You will also burn through the clear which will cause you to spray again and again waiting and sanding even more. Once sanded, slip the sock on your hand, put some Brasso on it and begin to rub to the point your finger tips start burning in back and forth motions, This is so much fun you just can't explain it. You will note that the model and your finger is almost to the point of ready to ignite themselves and just about then your almost ready. Monokote is starting to look real good about now.
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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  RknRusty on Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:43 pm

Ken, I'm glad some of my painting method is how you describe... that is painting the edges first and pulling the trigger in space, then sweeping past the target before releasing. I actually have a good touch with rattlecans and use a couple of grip handles that help, if you shim them for different cans. I'll be in my indoor curtain booth. The outdoor temps have been and will continue to be in the low 100 range, and closer to 90 in the shop. Humidity is 48% right now, and I hope it's that way when I start clearing it. I sprayed my test board whth white 24 hourss ago so I probably should wait till tomorrow and just finish painting the other flap white tonight. I'll clear the flaps and elevator before installing them. And I still have to mask and spray the DC trim colors before clearing the fuselage.

Regarding this statement:
..... If Brodak dope gets on the clear it will turn it milky white and eventually it will wash it off. Keep raw fuel off of it. Place extensions on your overflow vent to get it away from the plane. If you have fuel on your hands, wipe it off prior to handling the model.
Did you mean, "If fuel gets on Brodak dope..."? The Brodak dope is my clear.

I could take it to Wayne's airbrush, but then I'd have to politely juggle his and your advice, and I'd rather have one adviser. In the end, it really doesn't matter if it isn't beautiful, but it would just be nice if it turns out that way. I'd expected the statement on the label claiming "Fuel Proof Dope" to be more accurate than you suggest. But right now I'm ready to fly this bird. I'll take what you tell me, print it out as a reference and go for it. It'll be what it'll be. I bet you get weary typing the same doping instructions 10 times every year. Thanks for doing it again.

Rusty

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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  Ken Cook on Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:12 pm

Brodak dope is not very fuel proof. In fact it's not very fuel resistant. It will stand up to a degree. Raw fuel on it, absolutely not. It can discolor  and once it becomes soft and sticky  it will wipe off when cleaning with a towel. . This is why I suggested 2 part auto urethane on the nose. If you have Sig Lite Coat on hand, it's the most fuel proof dope available and it will spray over Brodak. John however came out with his Crystal Clear which supposedly is similar to the Sig Lite Coat. It's really clear compared to the BP - 1085. If you note my plane is looking rather greenish. This is due to the yellow of the traditional clear. Cyrstal Clear prevents this.

This is two years of use using 10 percent. This is the result of raw fuel. Note underneath the fuse where my hands grab, it's all wiped off. No biggie, it could've been repaired, but I will continue flying it until the wings fall off.

Your best defense against this is to build up coats on the nose and wax the nose using a quality automotive wax prior to fueling. I have gone to the auto urethane and since disregarded wax.
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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  RknRusty on Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:22 pm

Wow that lack of fuel protection is disappointing, I would not have bought it if I'd known that.
I will look into the automotive urethane, there are plenty of body shops around. I have a new can of clear Lustrekote on the shelf too, so I might spray some of it on the test board after the Brodak clear and see what happens. That L.kote is very fuel resistant, but gets crackles in it with age and abuse. I don't have a clue what's in it. I also have clear Minwax poly-u in the silver can that supposedly doesn't yellow. It's as fuel proof as anything I've ever used but I've never put it on top of paint. Nor do I know what would happen if I mixed it with Brodak thinner. That could be a screw up waiting to happen.



I sanded the primer on one side of the other flap today and got tired of sweating. The flap I painted white Saturday and the elevators are beautiful, looks like they were made in a factory. Do you think a couple of days is long enough to safely try the Brodak dope? My plan is to mix it to 60% thinner.
Thanks for hanging in there with me.
Rusty

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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  NEW222 on Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:43 pm

Looking good Rusty. But I will just throw my. 02 here regarding the Minwax Polyurethane mentioned. The stuff that you have pictured is what I have and use. I can safely say that it will yellow a bit, predominantly on the lighter colors, and not as visible on the darker ones. I used the Minwax on my .049 powered foam airboat and the polyurethane got a yellowish hue on the whole boat, and it was not exactly visible to me instantly. You may want to do a test again just to be safe. I would hate for you to have something happen to that beautiful plane.
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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  NEW222 on Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:54 pm

Ok. So I just jumped out of bed to check out my can of polyurethane. Besides the labeling fonts and locations being different, my can has all the same, with the exception of the artwork pictured in the lower background also not on mine. Mine is a new batch from April -May this year, and could also be different cans in Canada. Lastly, when opened, mine has a deep rich golden hue to it.
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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  RknRusty on Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:04 am

Yeah, I'm not gonna use that stuff, I was just typing without my blab filter engaged... again.

I just posted in your Twister thread on SH regarding the LE shaping gauge. I'm going to trace it and mail it to you in case yours is as square as it looks in the photo, as Paul Walker mentioned. Nice Twister though. You made a good choice for your first bigger plane.

Don't keep it a secret here at CEF.
Rusty

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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  Ken Cook on Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:12 am

Rusty, I mention this quite frequently that no dope is fuel proof. Some are better and some are obviously worse.Sig has the highest resistance.  Your 60/40 mix is typical. You can't spray it unless it's thinned to that ratio. I would just keep building up coats in the areas of contact and wax it as I mentioned. Don't allow fuel to spill on it. If you do, wipe it off immediately. I was getting siphoning off of the top tube which was running down the back of the tank. If you have the Lusterkote and you have had good success using it, spray the tank area and nose on the engine side and use the clear for the remainder. I wouldn't use polyurethane, it's oil based and your other paints are lacquer based. If you have to do a repair, this can cause problems not to mention it will make your white look beige somewhat.
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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  RknRusty on Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:08 am

Ken Cook wrote:...If you have the Lusterkote and you have had good success using it, spray the tank area and nose on the engine side and use the clear for the remainder...
That's a good idea. I did learn in my research that many people have used Lustrekote over DC Lacquer with very good results John Tate and Bill Little both have endorsed it for that specific use. I may very well take that route on the front end.
Rusty

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Clear coat

Post  JMynes on Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:25 am

Rusty,

I've been using Klass Kote two part epoxy paint lately, and I'm very impressed with this stuff. It cures as hard as a hammer, and back when I was using fuel I never had any problems with fuel proofness.

They offer a clear, I have some, but haven't had an occasion to try it yet. I suspect it would provide a bullet proof layer of protection, but I have no idea if it would yellow over time. Perhaps someone else has tried it?

My finishes are nowhere near award winning, but Klass Kote makes my work look better.

Jim
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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  RknRusty on Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:50 pm

Hey Jim
Glad you joined us here at CEF. I have read plenty about Klass Kote, never used it, but since I'm expanding my horizons I may consider it. weather permitting I want to start painting the bulk of the Twister tonight, but it's iffy with storms in the area.

For a small forum, we have a surprising amount of talent here. I'd be handicapped without these folks, and they're easier to discuss things with than on some other forums. More of a fun-or-bust outlook here.

I'm looking forward to posting some pics of my masterpiece paint job
Rusty

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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  getback on Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:16 pm

Welcome to the Forum JMynes ,, There is another guy on here doing preserves on plastic and using the Klass Kote ithink , it was Expoxy based and I looked into it and had a lot of $$$ in front of it but in the long run would probably bee worth it . Coming along nicely Rusty !! Eric sunny
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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

Post  RknRusty on Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:56 pm

Thanks Eric. I stood there before supper this evening, looking at it, and and couldn't muster the nerve to pull the spray trigger. Maybe I should wait till in the morning.
Rusty

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Re: My Fancherized Twister build; 3 days til Huntersville

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