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Post  RknRusty Wed May 11, 2016 8:31 pm

Sometimes I look for something and still miss it... what is the engine?

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Post  JPvelo Wed May 11, 2016 8:39 pm

No pressure allowed! It has basically a Black Widow built from parts. I put it on a test plane, it's a strong runner but won't stay lit inverted for anything more than an inside loop. It also cut out on the start of a hard dive, pretty much an outside maneuver. This is with 10% and an upright cylinder. I'm hoping its low nitro fuel slopping onto the glow plug and putting the fire out. I have some fresh 15% (the contest limit) I'll try out Friday. These Bee type tanked  engines confound me. I already did all the stuff in the Paul G. article so it holds steady rpm for the entire run.



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Post  JPvelo Wed May 11, 2016 8:55 pm

I'll get some video of the engine on the test plane Friday and turn it over to the CEF diagnostics team.
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Post  RknRusty Wed May 11, 2016 8:58 pm

A Merlin 2019 Hot drop-in might help keep it lit.
http://www.merlinglowplugs.com/Aircraft.html

Or a hot Nelson if you have a head for it. Maybe a squirt of Ronsonol?

Good luck,
CEF Diagnostic Tech Rusty

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Post  JPvelo Wed May 11, 2016 9:01 pm

RknRusty wrote:A Merlin 2019 Hot drop-in might help keep it lit.
http://www.merlinglowplugs.com/Aircraft.html

Or a hot Nelson if you have a head for it. Maybe a squirt of Ronsonol?

Good luck,
CEF Diagnostic Tech Rusty

No high compression heads.
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Post  RknRusty Wed May 11, 2016 9:10 pm

Oh. Hmmm, I think my Stuntman23 BW used to fly 2 or 3 inverted laps on a full tank, but no two are ever alike. The length of the vents inside varies a little bit from one tank to another. I expect you have to do the stunts in order after the wingover though.


EDIT: Inverted doesn't wash the plug like the hi G maneuvers, so I guess that's a different problem.

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Post  Cribbs74 Wed May 11, 2016 10:35 pm

Run a loop of fuel line from one vent to the other. Cut a v in the middle.

I never had any luck with a B inverted.

Tanked engines run like turds inverted. It makes no sense because the pickup is mid way. Anyway....Ken mentioned once that if you run a piece of fuel line from one vent to the other and cut a v in the line in the middle it will alleviate the problem. Never tried it though as I scrapped my B engines for TD/Medallions.

When I was learning outside loops I was infuriated with my Black Widow as it would cut out at the worst time. Cost me a couple planes.

Ron
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Post  rsv1cox Thu May 12, 2016 6:20 am

Ok Jim,  I can't get this model out of my head, I love biplanes, it reminds me of my Aircrate and I just gotta build one.

A couple of questions.  Why no inside the box elevator control?  Looks like the engine module was built separate, how did you attach it?  Are the faux engine exhausts drilled through making them somewhat functional as cooling air exits?  How much of this duplicates the Musciano Thunderbird?  Looks like the engine module can be built a couple of ways, and your model seems to render better.  

Don't expect much, my building skills are no where near yours, but I have to give it a try.  Gotta download the plans then off to the LHS to balsa up.

Bob

Edit add. Downloaded the plans and answered a couple of my questions. There might not be enough space inside the hollow log to place a bell crank.
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Post  JPvelo Thu May 12, 2016 7:08 am

Bob,

Thank you! Don't knock your building skills. Three years ago when I joined Central Arizona Control Line Club my stated goal was to learn how to make a model that didn't look like a chunk of wood with paint. It takes practice and patience. This plane had fillets done with spackle, clear dope, sanding sealer, DC 540 primer, and paint. It came out much better than I thought it would without tissue.

By engine module do you mean cowling? Everything forward of the top wing is cowling. There are small 1/4" ply blocks epoxied to the backside of the firewall under the top and bottom fuselage planking. That's what the cowling screws into. The plywood teardrop that extends over the wing holds the cowling on, you can see the small brass screw in the photos. I'll post a photo of the bottom tomorrow, it's essentially the same thing.

The exhaust are drilled through for cooling. This is the same thunderbird that's on the plan I just added some cosmetic items and the cowling hold downs. I moved the leadout guide down so it's closer to the vertical CG.

Good luck! Take your time and don't be afraid to ask questions.

Jim
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Post  rsv1cox Thu May 12, 2016 7:27 am

Thanks Jim. I was going to cheat if I could and order the kit. I emailed larry the red baron, but I guess BHM has closed shop as of the first of this month. Bummer. Yet to hear from him though.

The downloaded plans are almost useless, gives the wing spread as 15" but little else. I may have some questions. Smile

There was a time when I could build a pretty straight model, but today my hands shake like leaves in the wind making built-up wings nearly impossible to positon and glue. But, these sheet wings will be a piece of cake.

Looking forward to it. I just started cleaning up Kim's submission. Going quite well.

Bob
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Post  roddie Thu May 12, 2016 8:47 am

I don't have much experience with running fuel of any less than 25% in Cox engines. I think that Ron's suggestion of connecting the vents externally with a loop of hose with central V-notch has merit.. but I was under the impression that this trick was used for running Babe Bee backplates inverted. On a stunt-tank, this method would yield a single vent to the side of the tank.. not under it. That might work.. but you may need to cut a vertical slot in your cowl for the tubing-loop to protrude out; with the V-notch facing into the airstream. Do the rules allow for modifying a stock-tank's venting?

Since this engine is configured as a Black Widow.. did you match-up the tank and backplate for the same size flow-holes? They could be different sizes from each other. This probably wouldn't be causing your particular condition.. but something to be aware of.

I've posted this photo in a few threads.. and apologize if you've seen it already. These are both stock GB tanks/backplates.

Musciano Thunderbird - Page 2 Golden12
Musciano Thunderbird - Page 2 Golden13

The left-side is .063" and right-side is .082" with no evidence of the larger having been drilled-out. I don't know if the larger would be effected adversely by stunt-flying.. but it might. The people who maximize their air-intakes are generally speed or racing flyers. A smaller intake may not provide as much power.. but "may" provide a steadier/stable flow when being tossed around in the air. Who knows...  Huh...  What type of reed/retainer are you running in the engine?

One more thing to consider.. Some people feel that running the tiny spring inside the fuel pick-up provides a capillary-action for the effectiveness of the feed. It's questionable (IMHO) whether even running a vinyl-line as opposed to silicone might make a difference on a given engine. You wouldn't think that a reed-valve engine which sucks-in it's fuel, would be so sensitive to these things.  Huh...

I'm sure you don't relish pulling the cowl/engine to try any of these things either.  I hope there's an easy solution.
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Post  JPvelo Thu May 12, 2016 5:24 pm

rsv1cox wrote:

The downloaded plans are almost useless, gives the wing spread as 15" but little else.  I may have some questions.  Smile
Bob

There's a top view of the plane in the upper right corner of the plans. Go to the copy shop and enlarge that until you hit a 15"'span. That will give you your wings, tail, and firewall/fuselage width. Next measure from the firewall to the hinge line, that will tell you how much to enlarge the side view on the plan. Hope that helps.

Jim
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Post  rsv1cox Fri May 13, 2016 5:52 am

Thanks Jim, I did that with my Aircrate plans. But I found a NIB kit, may be the last one for sale. But I will try a scratcher as well.

Bob
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Post  JPvelo Fri May 13, 2016 2:54 pm

Bob,

Here's a few shots of things you could do on the kit or a scratch built.

Bottom of the cowling:Musciano Thunderbird - Page 2 Image_8

1/16 ply landing gear cradle:
Musciano Thunderbird - Page 2 Image_6
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Post  JPvelo Fri May 13, 2016 3:06 pm

I put the engine on the test plane today(see below) and went to the field with some fresh 15% fuel. With no other changes except fuel I got loops, lazy eights, outside loops, and inverted laps. I flew once then completely tangled my lines getting the out of the way to fly the mustang so sorry no video. The contest allows for one stop to refuel during the stunt routine. I think I'll do the wingover, climb and dive, and inside loops then refuel and do the outside stuff with a full tank just to be safe.
Musciano Thunderbird - Page 2 Image_9

Here's a closeup of the "Golden Widow", it's getting 18500 rpm on 15% with a MA 6x3 cut down to 5x3.

Musciano Thunderbird - Page 2 Image_7
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Post  rsv1cox Fri May 13, 2016 3:26 pm

Thanks for those pictures, helps to get the old noggin going. A "test plane", I like that. I might have enough parts around to build up a Golden Widow, but I might need a stunt tank. If I can't find one here Bernie has plenty.

Larry the red baron hooked me up with a fellow by the name of George Ellison in Oakland California who has just one Thunderbird left. He's sending it to me with free shipping and no price mark-up, nice guy but I will toss in some extra anyway. No contest bird here, I couldn't do it justice. I just love those Bi planes and your is a knock-out.

Bob
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Post  Cribbs74 Fri May 13, 2016 8:00 pm

Glad you got it sorted. Can't believe 15% is the contest limit. Makes me wonder if the CD's have ever flown a 1/2A.

I have yet to get a B engine to run well enough for stunt, I don't run anything with leas than 25% and stil had problems. I too did the Paul G thing.

Ron
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Post  JPvelo Fri May 13, 2016 8:32 pm

Ron,

I've been running TDs' on 10% after seeing that Ken Cook does it and realized it's the secret to keeping a good finish on models. 15% seems to be plenty for the Bee on this plane.

It is really fresh fuel I had today. A guy in my club owns Excalibur fuel and mixes to order then brings it to the field or meeting.

The one thing I did different than the Paul G article you might try is to seal the tank to the backplate with permatex gasket sealer instead of trying to get dental floss in there.

Jim
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Post  PeterJGregory Sat May 14, 2016 7:43 am

I think you might want to put a little pilot in there to complete it before flying... Very Happy
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Post  pkrankow Sat May 14, 2016 9:16 am

I've run 0% nitro without problems. Nitromethane + castor. Yellow HEET + drug store castor oil, 75%:25% (yes, that is a heavy castor load) It was "weak" as in the rpm was down, but not so much as not to fly. The needle was picky and difficult to get an excellent setting, but not nearly as bad as running bladder.

The big deal with getting an engine to run well is have a clean engine, clean fuel, and clean tools (fuel syringe), and don't expect excellent performance from the first run of the day. In fact run half a tank through on the ground. This will heat up the engine and free up any stickiness in the reed.

Now on an airplane with a weak nose the added vibration will cause havoc. The larger vibration will flat mess up an engine run.

Phil
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Post  rsv1cox Tue May 17, 2016 9:59 am

I received my Thunderbird kit yesterday Jim along with another vintage Enya. Now I have got to figure out if I want to build it, hoard it, or just scratch one out.

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Decisions, decisions, decisions.
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Post  JPvelo Tue May 17, 2016 10:13 am

I'm interested to see what type of cowling the kit came with.
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Post  Kim Tue May 17, 2016 10:22 am

rsv1cox wrote:I received my Thunderbird kit yesterday Jim along with another vintage Enya.  Now I have got to figure out if I want to build it, hoard it, or just scratch one out.

Musciano Thunderbird - Page 2 Stuff_10

Decisions, decisions, decisions.  


BUILD IT !!!!!
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Post  fredvon4 Tue May 17, 2016 10:53 am

Plus 1 for BUILD IT

BHM is out of business but I think most of us with Larry's kits copied them first, built the kit model, and can make a second or third as time and whim premits
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Post  rsv1cox Tue May 17, 2016 4:53 pm

Alright already, I just needed a little encouragement. Smile

Nicely outfitted as usual for these BHM kits. But no formed cowl as expected, although a cowl is listed on the parts list along with cowl top, bottom etc.. I think the cowl as intended is just a box. (see pictures) But what makes Larry's model special is the cowl along with his attention to detail.

If/when I build it I will make every effort to duplicate Larry's build. Makes the plane.

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Bob
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