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Brexit

Post  ian1954 on Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:33 am

It didn't work!

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Re: Brexit

Post  crankbndr on Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:12 am

The doomsdayers are out in force today, think Y2K. Stand pat and buy when panic merchants are selling. Bravo UK!!!!



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Re: Brexit

Post  fredvon4 on Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:16 am

Living a majority of my live in Germany and seeing the wall fall, then the flood of immigrants that virtually turned Germany and their economy to crap...later, when the EU was proposed, I was certain Germany would have no part of it..got that wrong

I was much distress in the early 2000s when on assignment there to find a beer (you must understand Germany and Beer) was nearing $5 US (3 Euros) for a smidgen .02L draft glass.... used to cost me about 70 cents for a glass and a little over a buck for a 1 liter bottle.

I was on an expense account but still had many German friends who were totally [bleep] at the cost of this thousand+ year old staple of life

Over the years I have insulated myself from most news and world events...was not aware Great Britten had anything to do with the EU. Thought they kept the Sterling Pound and was oblivious to any other involvement

That said I am Leary of any efforts towards a World government and think the constitutions of each country and THEIR sovereignty is absolute.

I am very happy GB has flipped their collective finger at this abomination of a terrible idea



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Re: Brexit

Post  1/2A Nut on Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:38 pm

Fred I lived in England twice total of 14yrs and Holland for 3ish.. USAF, I'm half English on my mums side.
I could never see them laying down and letting union run the show, changing over the Brits money to Euro's
would be a crying shame to boot. Long live the Queen God save the Queen Beer Cheers
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Re: Brexit

Post  batjac on Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:46 pm

Well, only having spent a  little time in England, I don't have any skin in the game.  But I'm glad to see that the referendum went to freedom rather than more control from outside forces.  I've been watching the various papers the last few weeks, mostly the Guardian and the Daily Telegraph.  Interesting to see all the arguments for and against.  Amazing how much they parallel many of the Left/Right arguments we hear here.  Especially how the Remainers talk down to the Exiters, calling them everything from ignorant, to racists, to zenophobes, to just plain facists.  But, I just couldn't see how so much of the people, usually in the Guardian, were so rabidly against England having self-rule and for rule from Brussels.  That makes them feel more secure?  To risk being boorish, I would still quote Benjamin Franklin, “Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”  I’m sure the Remainers don’t see it this way.  That’s just my simple minded ‘Murikin way of seeing it.

I seriously doubt that this will be a financial and social crisis as so many of the pundits over there have been predicting.  England is too big a market to be ignored.  Too many consumers of European goods for the other nations to want to lose as customers.  So the Pound dropped today.  It’ll be back up shortly, once people see the hysterical predictions were empty and start wanting to buy Pounds again.  And the open borders thing has always seemed like suicide to me.  So you need a passport to travel. So what?  I kept reading comments by young people in England saying their future was being taken away.  That they wouldn't be able to get jobs in other countries, marry people outside of England, wouldn't be able to travel freely and exchange ideas,  information, and culture.  Bull.  The world is more open today than ever before.  No freedoms have been taken.  You can still talk to people in other countries, exchange ideas and information through the internet.  Still hop on a train or get in the car and travel to other countries.  And I guarantee that if you’re intelligent, educated, and industrious, you’ll still be able to get a job anywhere.

Maybe I’m just a dumb Yank, but I see the UK taking back Sovereignty as a great thing.  Taking control of your own lives, not following the dictates of politicians in Brussels.  I’ve seen the comparisons of the UK leaving the EU like an individual state leaving the U.S., and while I wouldn’t mind giving Southern California back to the Mexican government, the comparison is daft.  Each state has representatives in the Federal government, and we have more direct input to the laws created than I seem to see in the way the EU Council operates.  But, I only know what goes on over there from reading the newspapers, so I could be spouting total nonsense.  For example, I’m still scratching my head and trying to figure out one comment in the Guardian this morning from one Remainer that said, “So now our greatest enemy is the USA.”  Ummm, what?

Sorry to be long winded.  I purposely kept from bringing up Brexit on this or any other board that I frequent, and had to stop myself from emailing my UK friends and asking them what they thought about it in the days leading up to the referendum.  But, since the door was opened…


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Re: Brexit

Post  batjac on Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:03 pm

fredvon4 wrote:Over the years I have insulated myself from most news and world events...was not aware Great Britten had anything to do with the EU. Thought they kept the Sterling Pound and was oblivious to any other involvement


I always admired the UK for staying out of the Eurozone (EZ) and keeping their Pound.  I never understood why a prosperous nation would want to peg their currency to other depressed economies.  I know the theory that was proposed on fiscal as well as political unity, better buying power, and helping to lift other countries up to a better standard of life.  But when the vote to enter the EZ came up, I couldn't believe people would listen to the theory rather than using common sense and seeing that instead of lifting up the poor economies, the most likely outcome would be to drag down the prosperous countries and make welfare states out of others.

Again, I'm just a stupid, uneducated Yank with no formal economic or financial training other than paying my bills and keeping a few dollars in my wallet.

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BREXIT

Post  jmcalata on Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:07 pm

The economic system is cruel.  Mad  
They should learn from us  I Love This Forum! , in the world of  Small Cox Logo  model airplanes engines no borders.

United Kingdom United States Australia Canada Colombia Finland France Germany Hungary Northern Ireland Spain

And of course USA and Uk are the pioneers. Very Happy
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Re: Brexit

Post  ian1954 on Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:56 pm

In 1975, I voted for the UK to join the EEC (European Economic Community) and not a European Union. Over the years the British have resisted the creation of anything above an economic arrangement and the creation of a political union. This has now extended to what is obviously the creation of a "Superstate".

The EU is not democratic and unbelievably bureaucratic. We have contributed more than our fair share and have become hostile to being dictated to by anonymous bureaucrats in Brussels.

Huge divides have appeared. Our politicians did not expect this and it was a demonstration of how little they pay attention to the electorate. 80% of our elected politicians were in favour of remaining while the people they were representing wanted out.

It is also fair to say that a majority of under 40's wanted IN but the older we are the higher the percentage wanting OUT. The younger generation think that this will affect their futures but ............

We have a population of 68 million now - 8 million are EU immigrants not born or raised here. This is an island with limited resources and we have seen our Public services stretched to the limits and beyond.

Our jewel is the NHS (National Health Service) - it is free because we all contribute towards it. If you visit England and are taken ill or have an accident - you will be treated as if you were a National. No one will ask for a credit card or demand payment but this has been abused. We have suffered from "NHS tourists" travelling and coming to England to take advantage of free treatment.

We have Social Services, pay unemployment benefits and subsidise the poorly paid.  That is why there are queues of immigrants wanting to come to England - they are also allowed to claim benefits for families not resident in the UK.

This has reached a tipping point. Housing is in short supply, our schools and medical services cannot cope with the influx and so I do not understand why the younger generation cannot see that there futures and their children's futures are affected by this.

Property rental 20 years ago would have been 10-15% of wages - now it is 40-60%!

Wages haven't increased significantly in many years and competition for jobs (particularly low skilled) is fierce. This creates many social problem.

The EU has been a money pit. A one way street where we pay a very large contribution and the EU dictates what we receive and how we spend it. The difference between what we pay and what we receive is £6.5 billion!

It is also fair to say that the acceptance of "refugees" by the Eu - in particular Germany set alarm bells going here. It is difficult here to talk about immigration without being accused of being racist.

This poster caused a furore! Yet it was an actual photograph.



The majority of "refugees" are young men - not families, women or children. A lot of us question their motives - most young men would fight to protect their freinds, families and way of life and not run away. Germany's motives for accepting one million is simple. The German population is getting older and they need younger cheaper labour.

Once in Europe, two million have freedom to move and will more than likely head to Britain. We are too generous!

The EU were given a chance to allow us to control our own borders and not provide subsidised immigration. This was refused - big mistake! The consequences of Vrexit are enormous.

It has also furthered the divide between England and Scotland - Scotland has always been subsidised by England directly and indirectly through the EU and want Independence themselves. It will be a shame to see the UK break up as well but it will ultimately benefit England. I don't know what they will do when we rebuild Hadrian's Wall!

This will cause quite a lot of animosity with the remaining EU members who will no doubt seek some form of commercial retribution. These politicians along with our own do not understand the English mentality. If they did they wouldn't have Brexit.

Project Fear was initiated by our politicians and supported by the EU threatening dire consequences for Brexit. This did nothing but antagonise the English even further.



Now



Even though it is obvious that the politicians did not expect this, I hope that the European people understand why the English want no more of the EU. They too will be affected by Brexit and it seems that their politicians are out of touch with their people and act in their own personal interests and not those of the people who elected them.

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Re: Brexit

Post  KariFS on Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:42 am

Well, I am not wise nor informed enough to be able to tell whether the UK or EU will be better or worse off with the decision. Thus far I have voted in every election that I have had the right to, except for one, when I was out of the country. I am seriously reconsidering about the whole voting thing after the folks that I have voted have after elections done just about the opposite to what they promised. Like Fred, I think I will just let it go and stop following the news, already have done so somewhat.

But I know this:
1. The whole referendum was caused by Cameron's hunger for power, and most of the leave-lobby was probably motivated by another power-hungry bunch (you know that mayor fellow that looks like D Trump's long lost twin brother).

2. Most of the folks who voted for "leave" are old and/or not very educated. That's according to surveys, reported by media all over. Many of them did not know what they very voting about.

3. UK never was a part of the Schengen area, so no one enters freely, everyone goes through passport control. So the problem with illegal immigrants had nothing to do with EU as such. Eastern European workers of course are a different matter.

4. The "leave" bunch will have hard time figuring out who to blame for all the problems when the EU can't be blamed anymore. Something along the lines of the old saying about eating the cake and keeping it too, like the folks (reportedly) in Cornwall area:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-cornwall-issues-plea-for-funding-protection-after-county-overwhelmingly-votes-in-favour-of-a7101311.html

Here in Finland we have a party named "True Finns". They have gained a lot of popularity by their extreme opinions and big promises. Now that they are the 2nd biggest party, and haven't actually done much good, they have run into trouble with the polls dropping from, say 25% to 7%... They also blame EU for just about anything and, while in the opposition, were also yelling for a referendum for "Fixit", but now that they are in the government, not so much anymore.

I am not saying that EU as it now stands is the ideal system, they should change back towards the old system that was more like an economic community, free trade area and customs co-operation. Now that they meddle with everything and produce mostly just paper waste, it is nothing but a drag. But maybe brexit is what was needed to make EU better too. So far the three big ones (UK, Germany and France) have had hard time agreeing about most things, and being the 3 largest economies in the area they have pretty much run the show. A lot of things have gone the way the UK wanted.

Personally, I think referendums are suitable for determining who will represent the country in the Eurovision song contest and who will get to the next round on X-Factor but for not much else.

We are living some interesting times, the economies of both the UK and the EU will dive, but hopefully not crash before a new rise.
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Re: Brexit

Post  ian1954 on Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:07 am

KariFS wrote:


1. The whole referendum was caused by Cameron's hunger for power, and most of the leave-lobby was probably motivated by another power-hungry bunch (you know that mayor fellow that looks like D Trump's long lost twin brother).

The referendum was an event that has been looming for over 15 years. It was included in the previous two election manifestos but sidelined - Cameron didn't have much of a choice but to call the referendum. It is fair to say that he was a Eurosceptic but believed that we could change the EU from within. He failed with the negotiations to change the EU and lit the blue touch paper for Brexit.

Boris Johnson is a colourful personality but only joined the leave campaign following the failure by Cameron to secure the UK's wishes. He was then in the prestigious position of Mayor of London. To resign as Mayor and join the leave campaign and oppose the government was a major event in his life with his career on the line. Whether I like him or not, he is to be admire for following his beliefs.


2. Most of the folks who voted for "leave" are old and/or not very educated. That's according to surveys, reported by media all over. Many of them did not know what they very voting about.

I voted for leave along with my friends and colleagues who are over sixty. All university graduates with professional qualifications and many years of experience. We have the benefit of knowing what life was like before the EU and seeing the destruction of the British culture. The under 25's know no different and don't seem to grasp that at that age - we were home owners, had very well paid jobs and people still queued in a very orderly fashion. Politeness was paramount and pensions with a pleasant retirement were guaranteed. Not any more!

I am over 60 - have two degrees, several accountancy qualifications and more IT qualifications than you could shake a stick at! (most of these are out of date though!). I would never disrespect anyone because of their age or because they are not academically gifted. At over sixty, they have a wealth of experience and know what matters to them and it is not the EU.

When I came to London- it took a few small sacrifices to get on the housing ladder. I eventually (30 years ago) bought my present home for £130,000 with a mortgage of £80,000. Easily affordable for me at that time. The lack of housing and population increase has seen house on my street reach £1.3 million! How is anyone with a young family going to be able to afford that? Rents for similar properties reach £5,000 per month.

Under 25's have know concept of the future and, to me, live in a virtual world. There is a divide - they have no respect for the elderly and I have seen a gradual decline in community spirit. Most of my younger neighbours don't even respond to a "Good Morning" - just walk around with there ears plugged up staring at a handheld device. Would I want one of these deciding my future direction (what is left of it)?


3. UK never was a part of the Schengen area, so no one enters freely, everyone goes through passport control. So the problem with illegal immigrants had nothing to do with EU as such. Eastern European workers of course are a different matter.

Illegal immigrants are not seen as the issue. It is the immigrants that are or will be legalised by the EU and the flood of legal EU immigrants that have stretched our services and worn out the "Welcome Mat".

Quite naturally - our "uneducated" see the influx of even "less educated" as a threat. Business loves "cheap" labour. We have a "minimum" wage of £6.70 an hour - say £240 per week, £12,480 per year. This is subject to tax and National Insurance but would yield around £1,000 per month. Our cost of living is very high and rent for a single person would take up half of that. I left home at the ripe old age of 17 to go to University and never returned (except for visits) - it is not unusual now for 30+ year old's to still be living with their parents. The younger generation don't seem to be able to relate low wages and high rents with immigration.

Most of our immigrants are very hard working and nice people, I have met lots of very friendly Polish chaps but there has to be a limit. The recent influxes from EU adoptions are unacceptable. We are experiencing a net increase of 330,000 a year. Where do we put everybody and maintain our services?



4. The "leave" bunch will have hard time figuring out who to blame for all the problems when the EU can't be blamed anymore. Something along the lines of the old saying about eating the cake and keeping it too, like the folks (reportedly) in Cornwall area:

Britain has been through desperate times and survived. Two world wars and although that is an inflammatory topic in the EU, most people aren't aware that we were bankrupt after the 2nd World War. The war ended and all our production was geared to the war effort. We had lost thousands of men - our cities were in ruins and our industries worn out.

We had to borrow money and the US and Canada kindly obliged.

The U.S. didn't seem to realize that Britain was bankrupt", and that the loan was "denounced in the House of Lords, but in the end the country had no choice." America offered $US 3.75bn (US$57 billion in 2016) and Canada contributed another US$1.19 bn (US$16 billion in 2016), both at the rate of 2% annual interest. The total amount repaid, including interest, was $7.5bn (£3.8bn) to the US and US$2 bn (£1bn) to Canada.[9][10]

The loan was made subject to conditions, the most damaging of which was the convertibility of sterling. Though not the intention, the effect of convertibility was to worsen British post-war economic problems. International sterling balances became convertible one year after the loan was ratified, on 15 July 1947. Within a month, nations with sterling balances (e.g. pounds which they had earned from buying British exports, and which they were now permitted to sell to Britain in exchange for dollars) had drawn almost a billion dollars from British dollar reserves, forcing the British government to suspend convertibility and to begin immediate drastic cuts in domestic and overseas expenditure. The rapid loss of dollar reserves also highlighted the weakness of sterling, which was duly devalued in 1949 from $4.02 to $2.80.

The last payment was made on 29 December 2006 for the sum of about $83m (£45.5m), the 29th being the last working day of the year. The final payment was actually six years late, the British Government having suspended payments due in the years 1956, 1957, 1964, 1965, 1968 and 1976 because the exchange rates were seen as impractical. After this final payment Britain's Economic Secretary to the Treasury formally thanked the US for its wartime support.

We are good for our debts unlike some EU members!

The funding that Cornwall receives is £60 million per year - last year our contribution to the EU was £10 billion!


I am not saying that EU as it now stands is the ideal system, they should change back towards the old system that was more like an economic community, free trade area and customs co-operation. Now that they meddle with everything and produce mostly just paper waste, it is nothing but a drag. But maybe brexit is what was needed to make EU better too. So far the three big ones (UK, Germany and France) have had hard time agreeing about most things, and being the 3 largest economies in the area they have pretty much run the show. A lot of things have gone the way the UK wanted.

Personally, I think referendums are suitable for determining who will represent the country in the Eurovision along contest and who will get to the next round on X-Factor but for not much else.

We are living some interesting times, the economies of both the UK and the EU will dive, but hopefully not crash before a new rise.

Changing from the EEC to the EU was not a good idea and the EU hasn't had the incentive to change direction. Perhaps now they will before further referendums are demanded and the "Union" collapses. The EU knew the vote would be close - it was in their power to change and they didn't. The consequences are astronomic.

The pound has fallen - imports and foreign holidays will be a lot more expensive but that is two way. Any country relying on Britain for tourism or exports will feel the pain until the market gamblers stop playing!

Everyone has the right to their own opinions on this and it is sad that so many divisions have been opened up. But they were always there.

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Re: Brexit

Post  fredvon4 on Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:55 am

I have learned more on CEF in 4 years than I did in 12 years of primary USA education.

It is amazing to me that fact based, as well as cause and effect, historical context is not at all well presented by any media outlet...let alone not ever taught in our school system ---even at University

The skill of critical thinking is also non existent in my country...Both houses of Congress...7%~12% approval ratings as far back as I can remember... 90% re-elections rates each cycle...hummm......they all suck buy MY GUY syndrome ( because he brings meager STUFF or CASH to us (infrequently)

I often wonder some times is a benevolent dictator should be considered with the inevitable coup d'é·tat every 50~70 years
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Re: Brexit

Post  KariFS on Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:37 pm

DAMMIT!

Wrote a long reply to Ian and lost it as the browser crashed.

First off, Ian, I respect your opinion, clearly there is a lot of knowledge and insight behind it. On the other hand, the "remain" side has a few good arguments too. What I meant was that most voters (like 60%) have no clue and the "leave" side had it easier to make arguments as the world economics have gone to heck, it affects the UK in many ways and they blame the EU for it. The "remain" people try to argue that the economics went bad regardless of the EU but that does not appeal to the general public so well. The truth is somewhere in between, as the world economics is a huge unpredictable and irrational mess (I am an engineer, so the concepts of "money" and "economics" are vague to me).

Finland and UK have a lot in common. My country was broke too, and after the war, since we were on the "not winning" side (as if there were a choice) we also had to pay for the "damage" we did to the ars... agressors who actually started the entire war. The payments were made in form of Industrial products such as ships, locomotives, machinery, you name it. That took about 15 years, during which there was a shortage of just about anything, incl food, in the home market.

In the process those generations built a pretty good industry and a welfare system. Free healthcare, free education (I did not pay a penny in tuition fees for my MSc), social security etc, lot like it was done in the UK. And in Finland, all this is going down the drain. Not sure if we would be better or worse off if we were not a part of EU. We are a small nation of 5.5 M people, not much natural resources on the area and so on, so it would be difficult to be alone. On the other hand we pay a lot more to the EU than what we get in return and all the directives make life difficult.

I wouldn't mind discussing this over a pint or three... Anyway I would much rather have seen Grexit than Brexit. The remaining EU needs to burst the ugly zit of the finance bubble, let a few German banks fall, and then, like the UK, Germany, Finland and others after the WWII, start re-building on the smoking ruins. I am almost 45 and will get by, but I am a little worried about my sons who are 14 and 11. Economy, immigration, China, Russia...

A secretly wise man named Mark once told me "Kari, you need to lay off that thinkin' s###, it's gonna give you a headache". Maybe I'll take his advice Smile
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