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Post  rsv1cox Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:10 pm

There has been so much discussion here regarding the combat stunt Li' Satan that I put it on my bucket list to own one.

Yesterday my son visited a yard sale and found a bunch of 1/2A partial kits of popular Quillows models that had been built but still retained some parts and all the plans. But one was a Goldberg kit of the Lil Satan that looks mostly complete.  Not sure if you can tell by the photo but perhaps you Lil Satan fans could clue me in.  Missing parts?  

Lil' Satan and friends Lil_sa18

Lil' Satan and friends Lil_sa10

Lil' Satan and friends Lil_sa14

Lil' Satan and friends Lil_sa12

Lil' Satan and friends Lil_sa11

Lil' Satan and friends Lil_sa13

Lil' Satan and friends Lil_sa16

The Sig box contains some olive drab plastic parts of maybe Cox or Wen-Mac planes plus some other stuff including a rather novel tail wheel assembly.  All the plans are there for the boxes pictured but not much usable. $12 worth of exploring.

Bob
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Post  1/2A Nut Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:09 pm

Vintage Aero Art.

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Post  gcb Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:44 am

Actually you can recreate some of the parts by reassembling the sheets that the parts were taken from and using that as a pattern for what's missing.

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Post  Ken Cook Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:28 am

There's very little parts in a Lil Satan. The plan is full size and pretty much shows what's needed. A very easy and overlooked part is the triangular gussets at the wingtip and trailing edge. Without them, the wing is subject to racking. In addition are the tail boom gussets from the trailing edge to the booms. I would like  to add though, the center section sheeting should be replaced with wider sheeting. The sheeting can cantilever over both sides of the center ribs to allow a larger base for covering. As is, there's little to no area due to the plane being silkspanned and doped prior to gluing on the booms. With the wider sheeting, you can easily pre assemble  allow yourself a little luxury of iron on covering without the risk of it pulling off of the sheeting into the open bay. I typically make it a 1/4" wider.
       The integral tanked bee is probably the worst engine possible to use on this model. While it was designed for it, the plans dictate how the pickup is to be placed due to orientation of the backplate. Not only is it next to impossible to assemble as shown, it rarely ever works or stays put. A solution for this is to make a new firewall so that the orientation of the backplate has the needle facing up. Unfortunately, this places the needle in a bad position subjecting it to breaking or bending in a ground strike.  I have redesigned many for product backplates and placed a tank directly behind the engine (Not over into the next open bay). The Lil Satan turns just fast enough to provide fuel delivery issues. These issues become quickly noticeable using a Black Widow or Golden Bee.

I would also like to mention the center gusset on the elevator. It's purpose is to provide a bit of stiffness to the elevator and offer a larger footprint for the control horn. The single screw control horn is about useless. While on this topic, the control wire is shown on the print with a kink in it. The wire itself in my opinion is undersized and placing a kink in it and where it's located promotes bending. If possible, try and forego the kink and give the wire the straightest shot possible to the horn. A kink can be made directly after the bellcrank end to allow the wire to exit the sheeting. Seeing that you really can't brace with a fairlead, this keeps the controls from mushing out. The stock horn is too small and the center screw allows it it to pivot which can and will crash the model. The gusset on the elevator is balsa, if using wood glue, it will dry and dial a cup into the elevator. This center gusset piece should be substituted for a piece of 1/64" ply. Finding a decent piece of C grain balsa for the elevator will also discourage this piece from warping. If doping, place equal amounts of dope on both sides of the elevator.
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Post  Cribbs74 Sat Jul 23, 2016 12:28 pm

It looks to be all there Bob. I've always wanted an original kit, I've built one from a Brodak kit and I wish I had ignored some of the modifications.

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Post  RknRusty Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:43 pm

Expanding on Ken's advice, here are some mods I did to my Satan.

I cut a new elevator and hinged it with a CF rod with a 1/16" wire through it. Wired it to the stab so the tube rotates on the wire. Also in the pic is a .5"  horn cut down to two holes and connected a clevis to the top hole.
Lil' Satan and friends Wp_20111

In this next pic, the small CF rod in the background passes through the center sheeting and is JB Welded to the 1/16 wire to the bellcrank, with the clevis in the top pic on the rear end.
Lil' Satan and friends Wp_20112

I changed the engine to a Tee Dee using the aluminum radial mount.
Lil' Satan and friends 09291210

But if you don't want to use a pressure bladder, a Medallion would work with this mount too. Notice my lead balancing weight screwed to the wings n the crankcase to account for the lighter engine.
Lil' Satan and friends Sam_1910
Lil' Satan and friends Lil_sa10

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Post  rsv1cox Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:04 am

Thanks guys, all good information. My son reads this stuff on-line and is amazed by the knowledge collected here.

The kit looks to be mostly complete including the gussets that Ken mentions but it's missing the twin booms. I can get the length from the plans but I will have to guess at the profile. I have some hard 1/4" balsa that should work just fine to replicate.

Everything is a little insect eaten but usable.

Lil' Satan and friends Plane_10

Lil' Satan and friends Plane_12

Lil' Satan and friends Plane_11

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Post  Ken Cook Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:52 am

Bob, the booms were 1/8" originally. However, the Satan is a touch nose heavy. This is fine for the beginner but for the more experienced, a bit of tail weight is necessary. I found that( 2 ) 1/8" wheel collars balances the Satan when the collars are installed on the pushrod all the way to the rear. Of course all this is irrelevant due to different engines. You can take many different Black Widows and Golden Bees and you'll be amazed at the weight differences.  I would think that 1/4" tapered and shaped would more than likely do it well. I would only recommend this though for the experienced. Old style woodie wings can get a bit flighty especially on initial launch. Once the speed comes up it stabilizes but for the first lap it can be a roller coaster ride until it settles in. A nose heavy wing will do far better here. If you noticed, the Satan has no wing tip weight. The engine nacelle is all the way to the right with the cylinder pointed outboard. It does work, but I would still utilize 4-5 grams of weight in the outboard wing. It just keeps things from getting crazy.
         
               While it's not clear on the print, the print mentions of not throwing any scrap pieces of wood away until complete. The leading edge is square at the wingtip ends. Adding small soft blocks and fairing them down to the wing tip assists in the covering aspect. Directly on that corner is where the compound curve is stressing the covering the most due to trying to radius in such a short span. Without these blocks the wrinkles can really compound in that corner so while it may not be necessary to install them, it really does the covering justice and it's one of those little things that just looks attractive when added. The plans suggest a 5 1/4-4 prop. This is the largest prop I would ever suggest using a Black Widow or Golden Bee due to it loading the engine too much. The wing however has a lot less drag but nonetheless in this application a 5x3 would do better in terms of rpm's as these engines tend to like to run on the higher rpm side with repeatable results.

Many like to stay with tradition in regards to covering, but I would never ever recommend silkspan on this model. It will just get torn up due to grass and weeds. It does add strength, but it presents far more problems in a negative way than in a positive one. If you do cover the model in a dope fashion, I would make it a synthetic covering opposed to the silkspan. I'm a fan of the iron on and I have never been faced with a weight penalty due to using it.
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Post  roddie Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:35 am

Regarding the need to make the booms; it looks like the elevator is on a higher plane than the wing. Maybe that's an illusion because of the boom-shape? I've seen plenty of models that have a tail-plane that's higher than the main-wing.. but it just seems to me that it would adversely affect the model's ability to turn equally in either direction. I'm wondering too (if this is the case with the Lil' Satan).. whether that adds to its inherent instability when launching?

I'm just asking this question so that when Bob makes his booms.. he puts the hinge-point in the right place.
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Post  rsv1cox Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:49 am

@roddie wrote:Regarding the need to make the booms; it looks like the elevator is on a higher plane than the wing. Maybe that's an illusion because of the boom-shape? I've seen plenty of models that have a tail-plane that's higher than the main-wing.. but it just seems to me that it would adversely affect the model's ability to turn equally in either direction. I'm wondering too (if this is the case with the Lil' Satan).. whether that adds to its inherent instability when launching?

I'm just asking this question so that when Bob makes his booms.. he puts the hinge-point in the right place.

Yes, that's been concerning me also.  While it has a "flying tail" type elevator and isn't fixed I still have to position it correctly in relation to the wing and determine the movement limits.  I wish the plans showed those booms in profile in full scale.  

Shaving and tapering the 1/4" balsa for the booms is a good idea although I may have some 1/8" around here someplace.
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Post  RknRusty Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:58 am

One more thing I forgot to mention, not only for flyability, but for better looks also. A spar to hold the shape improves airflow over and under the wing. If I did it today I would have installed it farther back at the high point, but you get the idea. I was still on the upside of my learning curve at the time. Notice I put crude shear webs between the spars too. The spars are CA hardened 1/4" balsa and the webs can be 1/32" vertical grain, and should be wider than mine and face mounted as shown.

This is before I realized I had to widen the sheeting to accommodate iron on covering. That was a quiet scream moment. It also shows the shaped blocks at the corners of the LE that Ken mentioned.
Lil' Satan and friends Satan_10

This has been a fine and tough flyer and still is to this day. This pic illustrates the benefit of widening the sheeting for Monokote too.
Lil' Satan and friends Virgin10

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Post  fredvon4 Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:15 am

Bob
No guessing required for the tail boom side profile and location of the stabilator height

It is pictured just under the left wing panel on the plan...... just not full sized

Photo copy that area of the plan and then adjust size so the rib profile is the same length as your kit ribs and the tail boom size will be correct
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Post  RknRusty Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:26 am

@rsv1cox wrote:
@roddie wrote:Regarding the need to make the booms; it looks like the elevator is on a higher plane than the wing. Maybe that's an illusion because of the boom-shape? I've seen plenty of models that have a tail-plane that's higher than the main-wing.. but it just seems to me that it would adversely affect the model's ability to turn equally in either direction. I'm wondering too (if this is the case with the Lil' Satan).. whether that adds to its inherent instability when launching?

I'm just asking this question so that when Bob makes his booms.. he puts the hinge-point in the right place.

Yes, that's been concerning me also.  While it has a "flying tail" type elevator and isn't fixed I still have to position it correctly in relation to the wing and determine the movement limits.  I wish the plans showed those booms in profile in full scale.  

Shaving and tapering the 1/4" balsa for the booms is a good idea although I may have some 1/8" around here someplace.
Everything about making the booms is on the plan full size. Look closely and you'll see it has a couple of triangular protrusions that act as stops to limit the throw, so you shouldn't have to guess at any part of the boom, hinge. stab assy.

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Post  RknRusty Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:42 am

Oh I see Fred's right, the profile isn't full size. Hmm, I'll investigate my Goldberg plans, I have both.
I believe the over thinking may be beginning here. And I have a kit I can send you a tracing from.

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Post  roddie Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:38 am

This is a cool thread on many levels. It's always good to discuss aspects of design.. and learn from other modeler's experiences! Most kits can and have been improved upon.. simply because cost-cutting measures resulted in kits that fell short of the original designer's efforts; both in performance and durability.

I'm excited to try the bathmat-stooge on a little flying-wing; the "Rod-Bat".. that I designed over 25 years ago.. and have never flown. I don't know who originally came up with that type of launch-assist.. but I learned about it here on CEF through Rusty.

Here's an old CEF link to his method..

Rusty's wing-stooge

I've always been a "loner" with my modeling activities.. and have built all of my models with landing-gear (wheels or skis) to be launched via a pin-stooge. I've never flown a combat-style C/L model. As many of you know; I'm building a 1/2-scale foamie Goldberg Voo Doo ("Phred's Phault").. Rolling Eyes and my old Rod-Bat that has yet to fly.

Bob will likely want to try this launch method at some point with this model. I know that I will be giving it a try with my "flying-wings". Thanks Rusty! Building a flying model is one thing.. getting it in the air (especially when alone..) is another!
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Post  rsv1cox Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:52 am

@roddie wrote:This is a cool thread on many levels. It's always good to discuss aspects of design.. and learn from other modeler's experiences! Most kits can and have been improved upon.. simply because cost-cutting measures resulted in kits that fell short of the original designer's efforts; both in performance and durability.

I'm excited to try the bathmat-stooge on a little flying-wing; the "Rod-Bat".. that I designed over 25 years ago.. and have never flown. I don't know who originally came up with that type of launch-assist.. but I learned about it here on CEF through Rusty.

Here's an old CEF link to his method..

Rusty's wing-stooge

I've always been a "loner" with my modeling activities.. and have built all of my models with landing-gear (wheels or skis) to be launched via a pin-stooge. I've never flown a combat-style C/L model. As many of you know; I'm building a 1/2-scale foamie Goldberg Voo Doo ("Phred's Phault")..  Rolling Eyes  and my old Rod-Bat that has yet to fly.

Bob will likely want to try this launch method at some point with this model. I know that I will be giving it a try with my "flying-wings". Thanks Rusty! Building a flying model is one thing.. getting it in the air (especially when alone..) is another!

Two thumbs up roddie!

Thanks again all. Fred, my up-scaling eye isn't what it used to be, but that's about to change. A visit to the eye doc reveals cataracts in both eyes. Seems they want to reduce them to soup and vacuum them out and replace with clear corrective lenses. Hurray, no more glasses to fog over with black spray paint. Now if they could just steady my shaking hands. Years ago both my wife and my mother had this done, I'm just catching up. Smile

Thanks to you fellows this project might turn out to be fun. I do have a roll of red monocoat that came with the Camel, but it's opaque not clear like Rusty's, and I kinda like that transparent stuff.

BTW, I was wrong, and for those wondering, it's not the first time. Smile The booms are present. What I thought was a solid sheet of balsa when viewed from the other side are the die cut booms, just not cut all the way through. Live and learn.

Lil' Satan and friends Ls_boo11

The attachment for the stab looks suspect and complicated, Rusty’s carbon fiber rod looks to be the better arrangement.

Lil' Satan and friends Ls_boo12

Lil' Satan and friends Ls_boo10

Lil' Satan and friends Ls_boo13
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Post  roddie Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:13 am

Yea Bob.. anyway you "slice-it".. a stabilator is a different animal when it comes to hinging. I like Rusty's method. Wish I'd seen that prior to what I did on my foamie. Construction sequence vs. finishing.. kinda' dictates how well it's going to "look". There's an old saying; Paint and Chrome won't get you Home.. The integrity of the mechanical parts is paramount. We're assembling tiny fragile components with these airplanes. When you think about it.. they are mechanical marvels to be able to do what they're designed to do. Leaving anything to "chance" is a "dance with the devil".. no pun intended.
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Post  fredvon4 Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:25 am

Bob
I can relate (eyes shaky hands)

I had 20/15 both eyes most of my life... like all old men developed the short arm syndrome... and got reading glasses for big bucks when I discovered the 3 ari for $7.99 walMart +1.75 did a great job for my near vision

Now I notice my right eye is out of focus with them (late day headaches)

considering trying one +1.75 and one +2.0 in the WakMart el cheapos before a trip to eye doc

I attribute the hand shakes to nerve damage from decades of bare handed soaking it bad solvents like MEK, Xylene ect...

I have a bunch of small 1/2a planes I want to build but my experience this year building the Jumpin Bean is I can no longer do the dinky parts placement and assembly with any precision so moved up to focusing on .35 sized models

Back to the Lil satan

Build it and follow Ken's advice on the LE fill in balsa helping the covering job, and control link BC to Horn suggestions for straight shot with minimal bending

I think this plane benefits a bit from 1" TE expansion with a flat piece of 1/16th

Not too sure Rustiy's mention of adding spars is really necessary ....bigger planes don't work as well with "starved horse" covering but I doubt it matter much with 24" span wings

I have two and the wider chord one is less twitchy....this is a difficult plane to fly without much 1/2a CL experience

Defiantly use wider center sheeting so covering and then attaching booms is much less a problem

I have one with TeeDee and one with Norvel short nose combat both on bladder... learn bladder from Rusty

my attempt at strong Black Widow was a problem for first lap but with the more power TeeDee easier to get up to speed in about 1/4~ 1/2 lap

That said a good Gold bee or BW work OK once up to speed...but...as Ken noted, with a tanked Bee engine the very hard G force changes make the engine struggle for fuel...where a bladder system is easy to adjust run time and engine runs very consistently from start until the few seconds of lean at the end
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Post  RknRusty Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:26 am

I'll trace that boom this afternoon and scan it to a PDF, put in my Dropbox where anyone can download it from the link I post. Make sure your PDF reader and print driver are set to 100% and it should be the right size.

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Post  fredvon4 Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:32 am

Bob

Copy the parts and just build three at the same time

BTW Sig pre-shaped LE 1/2" is close enough as is their TE shapes

Why three?

One is trainer for you and son////once it is sorted out and fixed a few times it can be the hanger queen while you and son have fun two in the circle chasing a 10 foot streamer

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Post  RknRusty Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:32 am

Speaking of launching, for those who've never seen our old young member Microflitedude Matt fly his first IC powered C/L flight(he'd flown an e plane once before), here's what the Satan does with full up elevator... hand-launchers beware!
https://youtu.be/0FzPcccyC78

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Post  rsv1cox Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:48 am

@RknRusty wrote:Speaking of launching, for those who've never seen our old young member Microflitedude Matt fly his first IC powered C/L flight(he'd flown an e plane once before), here's what the Satan does with full up elevator... hand-launchers beware!
https://youtu.be/0FzPcccyC78

Enjoyed that. Way to go Matt.

Speaking of young members, wonder what happened to Greg. We haven't heard for him in a while. He must have found girls. Smile
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Post  roddie Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:19 pm

@RknRusty wrote:I'll trace that boom this afternoon and scan it to a PDF, put in my Dropbox where anyone can download it from the link I post. Make sure your PDF reader and print driver are set to 100% and it should be the right size.

Rusty, Bob mentioned that he found the booms.. just to save you some time. I still question the hinge-point location in relation to the wing. Do the boom kit-parts have any reference marks for the hinge-pins? I can't see any indication on the plan that mentions this. I see a note for where to attach the pushrod to the horn for training vs. advanced.. but no actual hinge-point location reference. I would think that this would matter. If you needed to build your "own" booms.. you'd need to know where to make the holes for the best performance. The stabilator is definitely on a higher plane than the wing. You can ascertain this by using a straight-edge on the plan. I'm really surprised that the stab is not in-line with the wing on this type of model.
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Post  roddie Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:25 pm

@rsv1cox wrote:
@RknRusty wrote:Speaking of launching, for those who've never seen our old young member Microflitedude Matt fly his first IC powered C/L flight(he'd flown an e plane once before), here's what the Satan does with full up elevator... hand-launchers beware!
https://youtu.be/0FzPcccyC78

Enjoyed that.  Way to go Matt.  

Speaking of young members, wonder what happened to Greg.  We haven't heard for him in a while.  He must have found girls.  Smile

lol! I was going to ask the same thing regarding both; Matt and Greg. You're probably 100% correct there Bob! They'll be back in 30 years or so..
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Post  RknRusty Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:46 pm

Roddie, yeah there are a pair of plywood ovals that fit into a relief in the boom, and they have pin punches for the hinge.

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