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Post  ian1954 Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:49 am

You are not the only one to come across this issue

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/1-2-1-8-airplanes-70/10897534-throttle-sleeve-ace-cox-setup.html

It is not just the diameter of the wire but the approach angle to prevent fouling. On one of my test setups I used much thinner wire attached the thicker pushrod as you have shown and angled it.

I like the pictures, this model is certainly coming along. Is that propeller a pusher?
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Post  roddie Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:20 am

OVERLORD wrote:Thanks Kari. It looks like this:

Snowplane, radio gear - Page 3 Imgp2626

Lieven, Do you have the pliers designed to remove that type of clip? The pliers have two small hardened steel pins that spread the clip-ring open for removal and re-installation. If you can spread the clip-ring and slide it down just a little, this should allow you to install that rod oriented as shown in your photo.. then move the clip back up until it snaps back into it's groove. Be careful not to spread the clip open too much.. or it may not fit tight enough afterward; to grip and turn the barrel. If possible.. try to just lower the rear-facing part of the clip that the rod will connect to. You shouldn't need to move it too much.

You may need to file the top radius of the rod to clear the muffler housing. A clevis may work without needing to move the clip.. but you may need to file the clevis ears on the inside as well.

Here's another option that looks pretty neat!

Snowplane, radio gear - Page 3 Cox_th10
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Post  Kim Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:45 am

Hey Lieven,

I don't know if you can get these over there, but I have used the smallest Sullivan cables for throttles on all sizes of engines.  You can easily put a Z bend in the cable itself, hook it through the snap ring hole, and CA one of the threaded tubes on the servo end for adjustment.  It has enough flex to follow the throttle ring around the cylinder without stressing anything. The shroud may need a little support arm on the engine mount to help aim the cable at the ring.

I really like them because they easily flex around and through the crowded fuel tank area in the noses of planes.

Snowplane, radio gear - Page 3 Cable10
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Post  OVERLORD Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:50 pm

Thanks guys for your contributions. Kim gave me an idea I'd like to try. I'm thinking of taking a bit of electrical cable, strip of the insulation and wind the strands nice and evenly. Then bend it 90°, poke it through the circlip hole from below and bend it again between the circlip and the muffler with a knife blade or something similar to get a Z shape. To strenghten it, I'm thinking of heating the cable with a soldering iron and let it impregnate with solder. The other straight end of the cable will then be soldered to a piece of music wire.

The problem with using the pliers is that you cannot use them again to fit the circlips. And to force that back over the aluminium taper into the groove might be a bit delicate.

The prop in the pictures is a Cox 6x3 prop. I just screwed it on backward. I don't know if it's the best choice.
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Post  OVERLORD Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:08 pm

Although we haven't got snow, I tried the engine today and made some trials to see if it would proceed at all. I tried it first on the lawn. After starting the Dagonfly, it moved only a little. The grass gives too much resistance. After a few runs, black goo was coming out of the crankcase behind the drive washer. When turning the engine by hand, There was play on the crank and at each down stroke bubbles were abundantly present. I decided to do an engine change and put the the snow plane on the drive way. The little stones would give less resistance. A bit of downhill helps as well!!

The engine started well and initially, the snow plane did go well. However, it suffers from the engine torque and turns automatically to the left. After a while , revs seem to be decreasing a little.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KooNlBoS64M

Another video:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me8tERTazpo


Last edited by OVERLORD on Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:01 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
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Post  ian1954 Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:13 pm

It is a fine start.

Sort the engine out, install RC and ...........take advantage of some snow.

When I saw it heading towards the road, i thought that it would have been my luck for it to to pick up and head under a car!

This does look as if it will be a successful build.
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Post  KariFS Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:26 pm

Not bad at all Cool

The first few meters of the second video tell that it'll be really fast on snow. You might be able to compensate the tendency to turn left by turning the engine a little?

I agreed with Ian. Get the engine sorted and the rc system set up before the next snowfall Snowman  The engine, when it runs well, seems to have enough power.

Your build certainly is an inspiration. I just got back few hours ago from a walk on a frozen lake, your machine would be perfect for some fun out there Cold
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Post  roddie Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:50 pm

Hey Lieven, That's a great looking model! It will surely move-right-out with a peaked engine! I wonder if wheels were ever adapted to the full-scale vehicle? I wonder how stopping on a down-grade "with" skis was accomplished?
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Post  GallopingGhostler Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:57 pm

Too bad you didn't have dew wet grass to try out the snowcar. Then it might scoot better. Seriously, getting that engine to peak out would make a world of difference.


Last edited by GallopingGhostler on Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post  roddie Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:16 pm

Maybe a 6 x 4 prop instead? I think you mentioned trials would be with a 6 x 3..
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Post  navion34 Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:02 am

Well done Lieven !!!

Hope you can try it on snow soon !!!
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Post  getback Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:14 am

The build looks really Lieven , Yes I think get the engine up to rpms and I would get me a left hand prop instead of running one backwards . Let it snow for you Snowman
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Post  dckrsn Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:07 pm

Leiven, though I haven't commented, I've enjoyed following your progress on this project.
It  has inspired me to perhaps persue something I've been thinking about for a couple of years now.
The Leyat Helica. What do you think?
Bob
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Snowplane, radio gear - Page 3 Leyat_10
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Post  OVERLORD Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:03 pm

Thanks guys, for your comments and support.

I ordered a replacement crankcase assembly to rebuild the Dragonfly. I will glue keels on the bottom of the skis so the model resists better against the engine torque; I think Roddie mentioned that already before. The Call Air snowcar with the .35 engine has got them as well

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18221066&postcount=3894

Also I better fit a cable to the front ski to prevent it from going nose down and digging into the snow. I'm going to do that on the rear skis as well because the support is in fact glued too much to the rear of the skis: when you lift the whole thing up, the front of the skis go down. I also could glue a coin or washer to the skis' rear for balance instead. I only need about 8g.

Roddie, The prop in the video is an 6x4. I broke the old Cox 6x3 when stopping the engine with a rag.

The Leyat is an interesting vehicle and much info and documentation was preserved over the years, Not because many were made of but because it's such a unique vehicle. I saw one once in real life. It was during one of the Air cooled Days at Brooklands in april 2000 or 2001. If I remember well, it was a replica. They steer with the rear wheels, that's a bit dodgy and olso, in turns they lift one rear wheel. It would be a nice and interesting project Bob. I hope you'll start soon!!



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Post  RknRusty Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:25 pm

I love it. I might have to copy it in case we get some snow. I could play with it maybe once a year, or even run the sprinkler on a freezing night to ice up the yard.

I have a question for you guys that run pushers. I noticed when one of my Bees started backwards, and I somehow didn't notice(I'm a little slow on the uptake sometimes), it began to bog and I had to turn it much richer after it first peakd to regain a full 2-stroke; I assume because the piston and cylinder begin to tighten from the heat. Do engines used like this have a significantly shorter life due to higher heat induced friction?
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Post  dckrsn Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:36 pm

RknRusty wrote:Do engines used like this have a significantly shorter life due to higher heat induced friction?
Rusty
Good question Rusty. Might be cause for a heat sink.
I have a few for the finned heads(P#1970).
PM me your address, and I'll pop one in the mail for you.
Bob
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Post  KariFS Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:38 pm

OVERLORD wrote:
Also I better fit a cable to the front ski to prevent it from going nose down and digging into the snow. I'm going to do that on the rear skis as well because the support is in fact glued too much to the rear of the skis: when you lift the whole thing up, the front of the skis go down. I also could glue a coin or washer to the skis' rear for balance instead. I only need about 8g.

Lieven, how about installing a rubber band instead of cable? If you make the rubber band a bit short, so that when you lift the model off the ground, the tips of the skis would point up, and when you put it back on the ground the rubber bands would be under tension. That way (I think) in soft snow, the front ends of the skis would stay above the surface better. Maybe:huh:

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Post  roddie Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:14 pm

Lieven, I'm curious as to why you're replacing the crankcase on the engine? What were you running for fuel in those vids? Are you able to obtain good fresh 1/2A fuel in your region.. with at least 25% nitro?

I really like this model.. it's very cool.. and you did a great job building it!! I honestly wouldn't worry about the way that the skis balance on their pivots. The mounts look like they're in good positions to me. The front tips of all three skis should naturally ride-up over snow.. and not "dig in". They should by design; "float" over moguls .. the way you've built their mounts.

Maybe a single radiussed central "keel" on the front ski (just below where it pivots/steers) would assist tracking/steering, without stress-loading a servo too much. It wouldn't need to be very long or deep to be effective.. similar in cross-section; to a curved x-acto blade.. but only 3-4mm below the ski. The added weight of radio components will help keep it planted and tracking straight, until steering-input is given.

Have you got the engine-throttle design worked-out yet? The roof of the craft looks like it was sealed-up for your test-runs. Will you be hinging it at the front, so it opens for access to the cabin and radio components? You could make a vertical stand-off servo-mount from 3mm plywood, that extends up through a slot in the roof.. with a 90 degree bellcrank at the top (outside) for your throttle pushrod. You could adopt the "Ace" method of using a short piece of tight-fitting fuel line (sleeve) for fine-tuning a 2-piece pushrods'-throw.

One more point that I mentioned previously.. some "down-thrust" would definitely lessen the surface-tension on the rear-skis. You could accomplish this by simply shimming-out the "top" two engine mounts between the firewall with some flat-washers.

Rusty asked about "pusher" engines.. (engine forward of prop).. I don't know for sure.. but with conventional "tractor" props that "pull" the engine/model.. there is ample internal lubrication in the fuel for the crank to be "pulling" toward the front of the case. With a "pusher".. there is friction where the drive-plate meets the nose of the case.. where there's pretty much "no" lubrication. This is why using an electric starter can wear-down the nose of the case.. if you're heavy-handed with it. Marine-modelers use a thrust-washer in their drive-lines for this very reason.

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Post  Oldenginerod Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:53 am

Lieven. Maybe just replace the prop driver plate with a brass one. Sure Starts are sold that way as a pusher. I think Cox International has them.
Rod.
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Post  OVERLORD Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:35 am

Roddie,

The Dragonfly was bought 2nd hand. I didn't know his condition. It's something you cannot tell from looking at the outside. It might have been started by an electric starter during its previous life or maybe run on fuel with synthetic oïl only. I don't know. As the word 1/2A is extiguished over here, I mix my fuel myself. I have Dyna Glo with 25% nitro, 8% synthetic oïl and 2% castor. With that I add 10% extra castor.

In one way or another, I have to make sure to front of the ski's don't go down too much when the surface is uneven. The points would easily dig into the snow that way. So, I need to come up with something like a linkage cable or a spring or a combination of both or a rubber band as Kari mentioned. Concerning the, keels, A depth of 3 to 4 mm would be OK indeed. I'll follow the kind of keels mentioned  on the Call Air plan. For the roof, I still need to make a lock for the hatch. The hole for the throttle connection will be behind the hatch, also still to make.



RknRusty wrote:I love it. I might have to copy it in case we get some snow. I could play with it maybe once a year, or even run the sprinkler on a freezing night to ice up the yard.

I have a question for you guys that run pushers. I noticed when one of my Bees started backwards, and I somehow didn't notice(I'm a little slow on the uptake sometimes), it began to bog and I had to turn it much richer after it first peakd to regain a full 2-stroke; I assume because the piston and cylinder begin to tighten from the heat. Do engines used like this have a significantly shorter life due to higher heat induced friction?
Rusty

Rusty, As mentioned in my post with the video's, I noticed that the revs went down after some running and I also had to play with the needle. I don't think the piston and cylinder tighten from heat. With the given clearances Cox made their cylinders, you would soon have metal to metal contact and seizing of both parts: the engine would immediately stop and cylinder/piston assy would be ready for the bin.

Because there is not such a forced air stream as with a tractor prop,  I think the cylinder expands by the heat and the compression will become less. You have maybe more blow-by and the efficiency of the engine goes down. Also, and I had this twice, after I had emptied a tank, the cylinder head could be unscrewed by hand, although it was done up before with a spanner. This might also indicate that the cylinder expands by the heat and this due to the exhaust gasses in the cylinder and the evacuation of exhaust gasses through the exhaust port.

By the way, and just to compare, on the Enya .09 and .19 marine engines, only the cylinder between the head and the exhaust port is watercooled and not the head itself. in this way, certain expansion of the cylinder is avoided:

Snowplane, radio gear - Page 3 Imgp2712

On a Cox pusher, and definitely in my case with the snow plane, where there is a very reduced air stream, a heat sink will be necessary,  but more one that is clamped to the cylinder fins and not to the head. I'm going to try to make a heat sink and do a test.

Rod, I ordered a crankcas and crank with a hex drive washer in brass from Matt. I hope that this will restist enough.

Snowplane, radio gear - Page 3 42142510


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Post  GallopingGhostler Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:18 am

Lieven, you've gotten a really interesting and fun project going. Clapping

The Cox prop rod streamlined racer car with pusher prop used a standard Babe Bee engine without any additional cooling fins. Once started, it was set into motion and run on hard packed dirt or concrete would build up speed providing extra cooling.

By getting rid of that poor running condition and operating the car on a more slippery surface would provide greater cooling air to the engine. Once your snow car is in motion at a brisk pace, the cooling issue will disappear. I don't know if using a car/heli cooling head with heat sink might cool it too much, since you would be operating it in the snow and cold.

To trouble shoot the run problems, you could run it in tractor mode with prop air stream over the engine. Then after that is fixed, reverse starting direction for test runs, doing the runs over a more slippery surface.

A Texaco head may be a better choice. Two Cents Snowman
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Post  KariFS Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:21 pm

On the other hand, "typical" operational temperature for a snow plane is around or below freezing temp, that should also help.

For a pusher application a thrust washer might be a good addition. My second-hand QRC came with a 3-blade pusher attached and its crank has a noticeable end play. It also has an aluminum drive plate. Although I am not sure what is an acceptable or safe amount of end play.
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Post  OVERLORD Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:12 am

Here's a small update about the rear ski's. I managed to make something to lift the front of the ski's when they should leave the surface. It takes actually longer to think about it than to make it. It's done with  bolts an nuts and 2 rubber bands "borrowed" from my daughter's Rainbow Loom kit.

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Snowplane, radio gear - Page 3 Imgp2714

Snowplane, radio gear - Page 3 Imgp2715
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Post  Marleysky Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:31 am

That's a great invention! I've seen bags of those colorful rubber bands at the craft stores and was trying to figure out how to adapt them to a hobby application. Yours is ingenious! Good Idea
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Post  OVERLORD Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:13 pm

Good news. I received my parts today

Snowplane, radio gear - Page 3 Imgp2810

I rebuilt the engine with a new crankcase and crankshaft assembly, a new tank gasket and I added a new snap starter. I left the 6x4 behind and mounted a 6x3 3 bladed pusher prop

Snowplane, radio gear - Page 3 Imgp2811

Snowplane, radio gear - Page 3 Imgp2812

I did some trials this afternoon. The difference is remarkable. It suddenly became a very fast machine. I hope I still can try it on snow this winter

This is with reduced throttle:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbuqstoPoQA

And this is full throttle (Birkin style) but not for long!!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PXTNaLRJAA&feature=youtu.be

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