installing reeds and clips

johnv58 Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:10 pm

Was wondering if it matters which way the e-clip is oriented to the reed (newer style).

Cox International Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:15 pm

The orientation plays no role. However, the "bar" in the middle must point away from the reed to allow it to "breathe" on piston downstroke.

**Admin** Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:18 pm

It does matter. I have a great picture on my laptop that I will post here once I get on there (I'm non my phone right now). Anyway, the clip is made so the center wire of the ”e” clip is angled outwards a little, you want the retainer to be installed so that center wire is not pushing on the reed. Like I said, I will post that image as soon as I get on my computer (about an hour or 2)

microflitedude Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:21 pm

What about the black flanged retainers? Does it matter?

johnv58 Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:42 pm

thanks, that would have been part 2 of the question, does the crossbar go out from reed.
didn't know if they were angled that way on purpose or not,
thanks for the info.

Cox International Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:50 pm

Admin wrote:It does matter. I have a great picture on my laptop that I will post here once I get on there (I'm non my phone right now). Anyway, the clip is made so the center wire of the ”e” clip is angled outwards a little, you want the retainer to be installed so that center wire is not pushing on the reed. Like I said, I will post that image as soon as I get on my computer (about an hour or 2)

Please read my reply:

However, the "bar" in the middle must point away from the reed to allow it to "breathe" on piston downstroke.

Yes, it matters which side is up but it does not matter how the bar is oriented within the 360 degree spectrum.

Cox International Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:04 pm

microflitedude wrote:What about the black flanged retainers? Does it matter?

No, and neither for the round grey ones.

On the red flanged ones it matters insofar as they have a flat spot on one side and that must be in the top position to allow the piston to clear on downstroke.

Ivanhoe Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:13 pm

Cox International wrote:
microflitedude wrote:What about the black flanged retainers? Does it matter?

No, and neither for the round grey ones.

On the red flanged ones it matters insofar as they have a flat spot on one side and that must be in the top position to allow the piston to clear on downstroke.

Yes, I noticed that when I attempted to move the cylinder on a cast crankcase to the side for use in a C/L model, I quickly found out that you have to rotate the retainer as well!

**Admin** Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:14 pm

Here's the pic I was talking about.

Mudhen Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:17 pm

**RknRusty** Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:28 pm

Mudhen wrote:It's also important that the reed move freely after the retainer has been installed. If not - set a piece of 400 grit sand paper on a flat level surface. Place the retainer against the sandpaper with the horizontal portion of the clip facing up. Gently pull the clip along the sand paper, rotate 180 degrees and do it again, rotate it 90 degrees and do it again, rotate it another 180 degrees and do it again. The object is to create an even, flat surface. But you don't want to remove so much metal that it becomes useless. Wash it and reinstall. If the reed is not loose, sand it again.
Mud

Good point. Those circlips do sometimes pinch the edges of the reed. I have had to flatten the inside of the clip to free the reed up too. They were made to pinch the edges of the old star reeds, but those were shaped(with a double bend at the tip of each of their 4 feet) to work that way so they had a front side and back side as well. I'm pretty sure I remember that correctly. The new stars are just flat like the ovals are.

Cox International Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:38 pm

Ok, I am sure to get some flak over this (sorry Mud) but, according to Ronald Valentine (who makes some pretty amazing engines) it is preferable that the reed does not rotate.

Ronald told me that he makes sure that the reed does not rotate on the engines he manufactures. We sell him parts for his engines and, if something involves a reed/retainer setup, he modifies to the opposite of what is stated in this post.

I was under the same impression as Mud until Ronald enlightened me. But then, I am loath to doubt the word of someone who can manufacture a fully working diesel engine that fits on a Toonie (Canadian $2 coin).

Alright, I have opened a can of worms and am open to critique lol!

**RknRusty** Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:47 pm

Guess it's time for some new experimentation. My shop is too cold right now(dang near 55F in the daytime Cold

), but the fitting of a circlip is now on my list.

P.S. that joke was for Canadians. Very Happy

Mudhen Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:06 pm

andrew Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:30 pm

Cox International wrote:

Alright, I have opened a can of worms and am open to critique

Over the years, I sometimes wonder if I have learned anything at all. However, there are two things I'm sure of: (1) There is always someone who knows more than I do, and (2) just because it's my opinion, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm right.

When someone builds a better mousetrap, they're always worth listening to.

Jason_WI Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:20 pm

RknRusty wrote:Guess it's time for some new experimentation. My shop is too cold right now(dang near 55F in the daytime ), but the fitting of a circlip is now on my list.

P.S. that joke was for Canadians.

My garage temp is -7F right now. Cold

No joke!

**Admin** Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:28 pm

Jason_WI wrote:
RknRusty wrote:Guess it's time for some new experimentation. My shop is too cold right now(dang near 55F in the daytime ), but the fitting of a circlip is now on my list.

P.S. that joke was for Canadians.

My garage temp is -7F right now. No joke!

My garage is -4°F right now... My electric oil radiator and HF parabolic heater :heater: have no chance! I really don't feel like hooking up the propane forced air heater at this time of the night so might as well sit in the house.

Mark Boesen Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:14 am

andrew wrote:
Cox International wrote:

Alright, I have opened a can of worms and am open to critique

Over the years, I sometimes wonder if I have learned anything at all. However, there are two things I'm sure of: (1) There is always someone who knows more than I do, and (2) just because it's my opinion, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm right.

When someone builds a better mousetrap, they're always worth listening to.

DITTO! It’s amazing what you can observe, just by watching.

it's -1 F in Rockford...

Big Al Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:06 am

Anyone know the purpose of the crossbar on the e-clip?
Is it functional (to retain the reed during operation) or is it there for ease of assembly/disassembly?

The reason I ask is that there was an engine on the bay a few years ago that had the reed/needle moved to the bottom of the crankcase. I doubted at the time that it could possibly be a runner. Eventually, curiosity overcame common sense and I made a similar conversion just to see if it could be done. Well, the answer is ‘maybe’. The bottom end of the rod contacted the e-clip crossbar, so the crossbar had to be removed.

Well I chucked the engine in a drawer and never tried to run it. I could envision the reed getting tangled up with the rod and bad things happening!

Al

Kim Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:43 am

[quote="Mudhen"]

Cox International wrote:Alright, I have opened a can of worms and am open to critique...

I disagree. You haven't opened a can of worms...but rather a topic for learning. I enjoy this.

Ditto! I like this stuff !

Cox International Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:35 am

RknRusty wrote:Guess it's time for some new experimentation. My shop is too cold right now(dang near 55F in the daytime ), but the fitting of a circlip is now on my list.

P.S. that joke was for Canadians.

Well, it did warm up overnight and it's only minus 23; that 14 degrees warmer than yesterday Cold

Cox International Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:44 am

Quote from Mud:
I agree that the reed should not rotate, but it seems to me the least amount of effort to open and close the reed is most desirable.

Personally, I think that you have hit the nail on the head, straight-on.

In my conversations with Valentine I believe that is what he was trying to tell me. Our conversations are in German and the gist of what he was implying got lost in translation.

In loose terms: I asked how much vertical play there should be at the edges and he replied "none is best". I then brought up the OEM Cox setup and he said he could do better and he reworks the setup to make sure the reed does not spin under the retainer.

Perhaps this is a better explanation and it falls squarely into what Mud is stating.

PV Pilot Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:37 am

Big Al wrote:
I could envision the reed getting tangled up with the rod and bad things happening!

It is very bad, shook off a circlip reed retainer at peak rpm's once,,very ugly and abrupt!.

Very interesting stuff,, subscribed. I always thought the reed should float, why?, so the sealing surfaces could "wear in" together and seal better. And a loose engine is a fast engine. Might not be the case anymore.

nitroairplane Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:39 am

Cox International wrote:Quote from Mud:
I agree that the reed should not rotate, but it seems to me the least amount of effort to open and close the reed is most desirable.

Personally, I think that you have hit the nail on the head, straight-on.

In my conversations with Valentine I believe that is what he was trying to tell me. Our conversations are in German and the gist of what he was implying got lost in translation.

In loose terms: I asked how much vertical play there should be at the edges and he replied "none is best". I then brought up the OEM Cox setup and he said he could do better and he reworks the setup to make sure the reed does not spin under the retainer.

Perhaps this is a better explanation and it falls squarely into what Mud is stating.

I better not phone him then as my german is like my Italian cosi cosi.

Cox International Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:21 pm

Ronald speaks fluent English Smile

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