Re: My brand new Copperhead .049 seems to be nothing but eye candy junk

Yabby Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:37 am

I have recently built an engine up with surestart crankcase, killer bee crank, TD Cylinder, standard cox head for run in, steel reed, grey backplate. goes great!! minor fuel/oil out front of crankcase as i would very much hope to see, as that is lubricating the crank. I agree that within limits a loose crankshaft performs better than a tighter crank. i know on my TZ cranks, as we clocked every mile on a crank as rebuilds were every 600 miles or less, that at about 400 miles the engine performed significantly better and at 500 miles it went like crazy and made me very nervous it would do a bearing and seize.

I have spent arround 50 years of my life in sports, as a rider/driver/flier that use real performance engines with fuel and octane boosters, being yamaha TZ Grand Prix Bikes, open wheeler dirt speedway sprint cars and model planes/cars/boats with Cox engines. over the years i made many many mistakes, most of my crashes were directly attributable to me. some resulting in race suspensions. lol. at the same time parts suppliers sometimes made mistakes. I had genuine yamaha works factory ignitions that not everyone could get. they would sheer the key sometimes and rip themselves apart. it was fixed. it wasnt deliberate. the factory needed good accurate feedback from those using them to help fix them. which they did. had the barrell stud heads on a TZ crack and break off, I didnt realise they were titanium and after X rebuilds x ray or replace. my fault for not knowing. im sure some mistakes have come out from Bernie and Matt but they have accepted them all and fixed them. they both have the highest integrity and always are trying to make things work out well for customers, even when the customer may have mucked something up. You can complain about them and achieve nothing but circulating hot air, or talk to them and try to be part of the solution. most of the best fuel based high performance engineering shops need clients to work with them in solving and identifying problems as they do and will happen now and then. that is the nature of low yield high performance components across the board

Yabby

rsv1cox Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:45 am

Yabby wrote:I have recently built an engine up with surestart crankcase, killer bee crank, TD Cylinder, standard cox head for run in, steel reed, grey backplate. goes great!! minor fuel/oil out front of crankcase as i would very much hope to see, as that is lubricating the crank. I agree that within limits a loose crankshaft performs better than a tighter crank. i know on my TZ cranks, as we clocked every mile on a crank as rebuilds were every 600 miles or less, that at about 400 miles the engine performed significantly better and at 500 miles it went like crazy and made me very nervous it would do a bearing and seize.

I have spent arround 50 years of my life in sports, as a rider/driver/flier that use real performance engines with fuel and octane boosters, being yamaha TZ Grand Prix Bikes, open wheeler dirt speedway sprint cars and model planes/cars/boats with Cox engines. over the years i made many many mistakes, most of my crashes were directly attributable to me. some resulting in race suspensions. lol. at the same time parts suppliers sometimes made mistakes. I had genuine yamaha works factory ignitions that not everyone could get. they would sheer the key sometimes and rip themselves apart. it was fixed. it wasnt deliberate. the factory needed good accurate feedback from those using them to help fix them. which they did. had the barrell stud heads on a TZ crack and break off, I didnt realise they were titanium and after X rebuilds x ray or replace. my fault for not knowing. im sure some mistakes have come out from Bernie and Matt but they have accepted them all and fixed them. they both have the highest integrity and always are trying to make things work out well for customers, even when the customer may have mucked something up. You can complain about them and achieve nothing but circulating hot air, or talk to them and try to be part of the solution. most of the best fuel based high performance engineering shops need clients to work with them in solving and identifying problems as they do and will happen now and then. that is the nature of low yield high performance components across the board

Yabby

Good story Yabby.

CI, or is it EX also sends along with the product a bluish paper that states more or less "Any problem, contact us and we will make it right." Does no good to complain here, lodge a complaint with the seller.

Edit:

Yes, CI. Mail just came.

fredvon4 Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:27 pm

My collection of Tree Ornaments.

Hoping Bernie has not exhausted all the variants possible for these limited edition series

rsv1cox Mon Oct 31, 2022 5:10 pm

Beautiful Fred,

I'm missing the Blue Bullet, Xtreme, and Terminator. I bought two Graffiti Bee's but gave one away in a contest, Chancey got it I believe.

Did you ever run any of your's, and if you did, did you have problems?

Bob

fredvon4 Tue Nov 01, 2022 6:31 am

I started and ran the Extreme to see if it would be a Tach Race candidate. Don't remember rpm but on 35% it started and peaked high enough to contend. Alas no race that year

getback Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:06 am

Since we are Yammering , I had purchased a Killer Bee crank and case assy. and was never able to get it to run (this was second run of problems ) I had let Bernie at Cox Inter. know , he sent another before I made the video to show him and had the same problem . I made a video of me moving the CS from side to side and you could see there was way to much play to not bee sucking air and on two stroke this is a NoNo My Back ground includes 35 Yrs. of working on 2 and 4 stroke lawn equip. Since there is not really alot of tools to check for defects it can be hit and miss , But that is one reason we are here as a community to help people get these Gems running right ! Anyway I think our friend will find the problem when he start making other engine (s) from the parts . Popcorn

rsv1cox Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:33 am

You got my curiosity going Eric.

Got out mine and checked them, even the RR-1 which is rock solid. Checked them all for movement N/S amd E/W. I found little or no movement in any. Only problem was the Purple Python was locked up tight. (All factory lubed, I did nothing to them) A prop and a drop of light oil in the exhaust port loosened it.

Also checked the poorly anodized cases they sold awhile back. New crank and found the same.

Cox International Wed Nov 02, 2022 1:26 pm

Christopher,

We just stumbled upon this post and are quite dismayed that that you would prefer to publicly disparage us, instead of communicating your issues to us directly. We even enclose a flyer with every order that clearly states “If you are not 100% satisfied with your shipment, please email us at sales@coxengines.com or call 1-877-769-1779 (Toll-free in North America) or 1-778-412-9111 and we will make it right”.

Of course we would take ownership of the issue and offer to make you whole. Please package up what is left (don’t bother with the box it came in) and send it back to us in a bubble mailer via USPS First Class Mail; indicating a $10 custom’s value and “warranty return” as reason for export. Once we receive the engine back, we will refund your entire purchase price, as well as the $14.75 that you will have to pay as postage.

We did receive two more orders from you last night; for which we thank you; which we would combine into one order and refund you the duplicate shipping cost. However, we concede that we do cringe a little bit at the thought of what will happen if something in that order is not to your satisfaction

We will address the CopperHead issue in our next post.

Cox International Wed Nov 02, 2022 2:08 pm

Further to our previous post, in which we ask that you please return the engine….

For starters, Christopher, we sincerely apologize that you had an issue with one of our products.

We made six different “Limited Edition” engines; with a run of 100 units each. #1 we always kept in-house; hence have sold 594 units, which generally only differed from each other in colour. Although we don’t know how many of those engines have been put to use (probably only a smaller %), we have heard from many buyers that they “scream”. This in no way invalidates your complaint; as it is undoubtedly real.

We suspect that your engine is over-compressed (usually a good problem to have and easy to solve) or the fit between the Venom / Killer Bee crank and the crankcase is not a good match. The cranks would be from a later production run; made to exact OEM specs. The crankcases are OEM Cox and, how should we put it … admittedly not always to precise specs. But again, we suspect over-compression as the primary cause.

Since your post elicited a number of comments / concerns, we will address them one-by-one:

Ken: The engine is not “a glorified Surestart”. It is an engine with a Sub Port Induction Tee Dee cylinder, coupled with a high-compression head, a Venom / Killer crank and a larger venturi hole, amongst other things. Tests have shown that engine to perform aprx. 3,000 RPM higher than a Surestart

Christopher: The Pee Wee backplate assemblies are made by a well-known member on this forum; whereas we sold aprx. 150 of them. I believe that yours was the only one we heard of an issue with, and our recollection is that we immediately apologized and gave you a full refund. We made our vendor aware of the issue and, on his next production run, he will decrease the hole for the spraybar. Also, we believe that the material used is “Zytel”; which should be fuel-resistant.

Admin: The first-run Venom / Killer Bee cranks were crappy. We picked a few dozen that seemed to be within specs and sent the rest back to the factory. Despite this, we still got some complaints and everyone that complained was refunded, together with our apologies. All successive production runs were from a new vendor and they were / are to specs.

balogh Wed Nov 02, 2022 2:46 pm

Bernie, the loose fit of Killer Bee aftermarket cranks - a suspected reason for fuel oozing at the drive plate, and wobbling prop - was addressed in other threads too like: https://www.coxengineforum.com/t14361-my-crank-said-no and Matt commented there, that the new production runs will go with a modified crank design..will you indeed have the dimensions of the KB shaft revised? I checked, and standard old stock Bees had 5.5mm dia front journal crank bearings, while aftermarket KB cranks have 5.44mm. So, if mounted in the same crankcase, the KB aftermarket crank may ooze and wobble , where an old stock Bee crank will not.I am far from being an engine construction expert, and know the loose fit, unless excessive, may help ramp up engine speed a bit, but assume a bit thicker like 5.46 or 5.48mm journal bearing diameter could be a smart compromise..at least would reduce fuel ooze and prop wobble without being too tight to brake the engine speed...just my ten cents..

Cox International Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:52 pm

balogh wrote:Bernie, the loose fit of Killer Bee aftermarket cranks - a suspected reason for fuel oozing at the drive plate, and wobbling prop - was addressed in other threads too like: https://www.coxengineforum.com/t14361-my-crank-said-no and Matt commented there, that the new production runs will go with a modified crank design..will you indeed have the dimensions of the KB shaft revised? I checked, and standard old stock Bees had 5.5mm dia front journal crank bearings, while aftermarket KB cranks have 5.44mm. So, if mounted in the same crankcase, the KB aftermarket crank may ooze and wobble , where an old stock Bee crank will not.I am far from being an engine construction expert, and know the loose fit, unless excessive, may help ramp up engine speed a bit, but assume a bit thicker like 5.46 or 5.48mm journal bearing diameter could be a smart compromise..at least would reduce fuel ooze and prop wobble without being too tight to brake the engine speed...just my ten cents..

Our KB cranks seem to have 5.48 mm (0.02155"); whereas the drawing call for 0.02165". 2/100" of a mm will make a bit of difference but I don't think that's the issue here. Most likely over-compression and / or crankcase out of spec. Shall see once we get the engine back.

We use these KB cranks in our "Venom II", as well as "Diesel" engines without problems so far.

fredvon4 Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:14 pm

While my personal preference is always a Metal Back plate, that is the only modest disappointment on my 6 #55 limited edition Cox International Engines. Because of the hoopala..I pulled every one of the #55 Limited Edition engines out and critically examined each... noted earlier one , The extreme is a serious screamer, I choose not to foul my other 5 with castor but am confident they are all quality engines.

IMO with most so called high end, limited edition things I buy, these were always intended ad Hanger Queens and annual X mass decorations on the tree or a diorama of all things Cox.

Of my children, only one has any interest in my Tool, Engine, Gun, Reloading, and Rocket collections....Justen absolutely desires my 6 Limited Edition #55 Cox engines and he too would love some sort of Annual addition to the Series.

In fact he is "subscribed" to a Franklin Mint "collection" of Lionel trains to add to his anticipated Inheritance on my 1959 train set....

I suspect the OP of this dreadful thread bought the copper head used and did not get the included paper. He seems new enough to NOT KNOW Bernie and crew...Most of us old CEFers know Matt and Bernie always stand 100% behind every sale

I am sincerely glad Bernie found this (I almost e-mailed him due to his absence) His last notes are exactly as I expected, a business guy intent on customer satisfaction, no matter what, even at a loss......Bernie and Matt are class act proprietors that deserve a lot more of our business......IMO

Cox International Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:20 pm

In reply to fredvon and in defense of the OP:

If we ever do a LE engine again, it will have a metal backplate, as we had those manufactured in the meantime.

The OP is an existing customer of ours and has made several purchases, including the CopperHead engine. We originally sold this engine to someone and then saw it listed in an eBay auction. Contacted the seller and he said that he got it from an estate sale. We bid and won (totally overpaid it lol). It did not have the certificate; which we reprinted and we also replaced the box.

So yes, brand new engine and we have no doubt whatsoever that the OP was not able to start it, but we would like to find out why.

Perhaps we should not have posted the way we (I) did but, since this happened in a public forum, wanted to let let forum members know that we 100% stand behind our products and will always make unhappy buyers whole.

Heck, we had one buyer (in 2021) that wanted a replacement red 049 crankcase because, four years after his purchase, he realized that the anodizing was more burgundy than red and did not match his other parts. Even though that was his only purchase between 2008 and 2021, we gave him a refund. No further orders since...

cstatman Thu Nov 03, 2022 12:15 am

gonna totally sound like a brown-nosing suck up here... .but I'm old enough that I dont care.

the parts, service and replies I get from BOTH Bernie and Matt?
are freakin exceptional

this customer service simply does not exist in ANY of the vintage/repop/old-fart hobbies I wallow around in.
Just try to buy a repop critical fuel cap liner/sealer for 1 1967 Norton P-11. Just try! you can get them, new gas turns them to jello in a matter of hours. Try returning .020 over piston rings for a 64 Corvair... see what happens. (actually, the folks at Clarkes Corvair are pretty nice, but you are still gonna pay for it.

I have been extremely fortunate to NOT have big problems with my frequent small purchases of Cos epherma.... , but I know BOTH vendors would work to "make-right" every single time.

Every time I order from either, the package arrives in the mail and I am INSTANTLY 11 years old on Christmas morning. I cannot wait to get in the house and open up, take to garage, work on my massive hoard of cox motors.

Thank you thank you Matt & Bernie for supporting all us weirdos, and keeping us stocked with the addictive goodies we need so badly.

thank you for your brilliant explanations

I hope the Crappy Copperhead owner finds some solution so everyone feels 'whole'

Levent Suberk Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:18 am

balogh wrote:Truth be told, the above loose fit (cylinder/piston, crank and shaft) is not rare with engines made later than the late 80-s..I have boxed Black Widows, Texaco, Killer Bee etc NIB engines all made in the mid 90-s still by COX and not by Estes, and their fit is nowhere near as precise as that of older COX engines.. my heart is bleeding to denounce COX products, but I trust and prefer buying and running COX engines made in the 60-s and 70-s, , even if pre-owned, instead of later ones.

Yes, right. I also heard about it from several modelers here. Cox engines before 80s are best.

Coxfledgling Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:15 pm

Got me worried now...

I purchased from Dens model supplies a "new" black widow for a particular model, Fourier motor glider, a mag free plan, RC 2 channel.

I understand den is supplied via Cox international in USA.

I think I better take it out of storage and have a look-see...

Levent Suberk Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:30 pm

Coxfledgling wrote:Got me worried now...

I purchased from Dens model supplies a "new" black widow for a particular model, Fourier motor glider, a mag free plan, RC 2 channel.

I understand den is supplied via Cox international in USA.

I think I better take it out of storage and have a look-see...

That Black Widow is a workhorse. True performance engine. Pumpkin

NEW222 Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:48 pm

rsv1cox wrote:Beautiful Fred,

I'm missing the Blue Bullet, Xtreme, and Terminator. I bought two Graffiti Bee's but gave one away in a contest, Chancey got it I believe.

Did you ever run any of your's, and if you did, did you have problems?

Bob

Yep, I have the second Graffiti Bee here safe and sound! And show it off frequently as it is the most beautiful engine I own or ever will own!

Cox International Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:08 pm

Coxfledgling wrote:Got me worried now...

I purchased from Dens model supplies a "new" black widow for a particular model, Fourier motor glider, a mag free plan, RC 2 channel.

I understand den is supplied via Cox international in USA.

I think I better take it out of storage and have a look-see...

Yes, Den has been our loyal and trusted UK reseller for over a decade and everything that we supplied him is new and unused so, yes, your engine would definitely be new and unused; backed by our unconditional 100% satisfaction guarantee, which Den upholds.

BTW, we are located in Canada; not that this really matters.

As a matter of fact, we rarely list anything "refurbished" (a.k.a. used) on our website and, if we do, it would be clearly marked as such.

For anyone doubting our integrity, there is a site on which we maintain an account (since 2006), where buyers can rate us. 61,058 positive feedbacks and zero negative feedbacks; they can't all be wrong: https://www.ebay.com/str/coxengines

cmulder Fri Nov 04, 2022 5:25 am

Brexit made buying from the U.K. a tedious, expensive undertaking including a week delay for the import duty to be proccessed.
Is there already a trade agreement in effect between the E.U. and Canada to avoid this?
That would make buying from Canada cheaper and faster then from the Brexit guys.

balogh Fri Nov 04, 2022 5:44 am

Sitting in the EU like you, I am facing the same issues...The EU import rules are harmonized as of July 1st 2021, - and apply to Ireland (the country if I remember well where you live) and Hungary in a similar way - such, that beyond a certain value of the goods, (45€) the national Value Added Tax is to be paid upon importation (in my case in Hungary the VAT is 27% of the face value of the invoice I have paid for the goods to the seller, shipping included...), but if the value of goods exceeds 150€ (shipping included), then in addition to the VAT, the import duty also applies, and must be paid by the importer.

And imports from Canada are no exception to the above EU rules...

Coxfledgling Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:29 am

I'm UK based, Snowdonia.

Mecoa make new Cox stuff that Cox international and exmodelengine don't stock sadly.

Mecoa do not export to UK for tax reasons.

Could not Cox international and exmodelengine buy in it make/develope some of these parts, particularly td09 bits like the plastic inlet manifolds, silencers and RC carbs ?

Yes I know economics come into play...

balogh Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:41 am

Coxfledgling wrote:I'm UK based, Snowdonia.

Sorry, my EU import rules summary was to answer cmulder's post who I think lives in the EU..

A couple years ago I in Hungary had some deals with Mecoa, but they were more reluctant later to quote shipments of their goodies to me, most likely they prefer shipments into US addresses...just my guess..

COX Int'l carries the TD09 carb body, made of aluminum, though

https://coxengines.ca/cox-09/cox--09-carburetor-body-black.html

cmulder Fri Nov 04, 2022 8:52 am

Before "brexit" i could import up to €150 and have no additional cost at all.
Now EVERY shipment from any country cost me AT LEAST the "handling fee" of the local postal service. (about €8 euro) regardles of the value of the item.
Just to be clear this not only aplies to buying from the "U.K." but EVERY SINGLE international shipment.

I used to buy all my rc helicopter parts from midland heli and those align-trex guys in the uk.
Now i buy from germany; sure the parts are a more expensive but without all the import cost it still ends up cheaper then from the uk.
And it also avoids the week (or more) i have to wait for the shipment to clear customs after i payed.

It looks that there is a EU trade agreement with Canada but it has not yet been ratified by all Member states.

Coxfledgling Fri Nov 04, 2022 10:52 am

Yes, the td09 alloy inlet manifolds, I have 3 from memory ready for RC carb converting ( thanks sosam ) but would like 3 plastic ones as well, red preferably. They have the pressure nipple ready made, but blind, an easy mod.

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My brand new Copperhead .049 seems to be nothing but eye candy junk