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Post  RknRusty Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:35 pm

Another afternoon at the fort. Weather forecast was for a front moving through with tunderstorms, but we counted on it doing its usual thing for this area, and passing fast and moving on out. So we planned to meet up between 2 and 3:00 and fly till about 8. I had some work to do on the Nobler since my shakedown flight on Saturday. It clearly needed some tail weight, and I had taped 7g to the tail. I took that off and found some solid wood on the bottom of the rudder for a 4-40 bolt and put some more weight on it, up to 14g now. And I bought another tongue muffler from Eric Rule of RSM, which should lighten the nose. It was so slow on the controls that I widened the cables on the handle to about HotRock width.

The engine was also overheating because, without realizing my mistake, I stuffed its cooling duct with padding for the fuel tank. Still getting used to cowled engines. In fact on the Oriental, I also need to cut another vent over the engine's side bypass to keep the ABN 40fp from running away, but only on mid 90F and hotter days. I bet a steel version of that engine would need even more air flow to keep it cool. I've bored extra holes in both mufflers for the same reason. I think the Nobler's will get an additional extra row. All that being said, the 35fp is such a wonderfully friendly engine... I keep saying that. But even with my gimpy cranking arm, it has yet to take more than 3 flips to crank.
Here's a picture of what I changed to restore the air flow through the bottom of the cowl and exit in front of the LG.
Before, I had just crammed it full of rectangles of thin type beer koozies, my usual tank padding. For places that require a firmer pad I use thin mouse pads. Both materials can withstand fuel soak, but that mostly only happens on profiles. If you have fuel soaked pads in a full fuse plane, you've got bigger problems than wet koozies.

A day of War at the fort! I provided air support. Nobler10
It's aluminum, thicker than I would've liked. I punched the screw holes with a scratch awl so they would have protruding keepers to hold it in existing screw holes for the cowl, and make it easier for quick work if I ever have to go in there during a contest. Then I got bit by another full fuse no-brainer. The exit vent is significantly smaller than the intake. The cowl stops and opens about an inch in front of the LG, as you can see in the picture above. I realized it as soon as I put the final screw in last night... at 11:45pm. Screw it, good night, maybe it'll still be better.

I rolled into the fort to find soldiers all over the place, and a whole lot more automatic weapons fire and grenades than usual. They were playing serious War! The berm at one end of the runway had a long table with a bunch of red flags and a few guys milling around it. I asked a Drill Sgt. if I was going to be in their way, and he said they were moving out in a few minutes, so I rolled out the lines on the Nobler and fooled around waiting for Wayne and Jim and Bob Z to show up. The ribbons on the flagpole were standing straight out and snapping in the wind. My two weather watching glider pilot friends later confirmed what NOAA was saying, about 12mph with gusts, but steady and mostly straight down the runway with no obstructions. This is what I want contest winds to be like. I've flown in wind almost every time I fly at the fort and I feel like it gives me an advantage.

So they finally rolled in, minus Bob because it was too far for him to drive with questionable weather. I was all set up and started fueling as soon as I saw them parking. Wayne and I walked the Nobler out. I expected to have to fiddle with the needle, because when I ordered the muffler I neglected to order a pressure nipple. So I cranked it with the forward facing vent tube open. It cranked right up and was easy enough to needle. I heard it speeding up as I walked to the lines and turned around to see Wayne turn it a little richer. It's a good thing because after I was airborne it leaned out again. So no question, I need to open that rear air vent more. It's supposed to be twice as large as the intake, and it's nowhere near that. But luckily it wasn't making pre-ignition noise and it stayed about the same for the whole flight. As it turns out, I could not have handled the wind with any slower engine run.

As I was making the first 5 obligatory laps, I saw a row of soldiers standing on the berm watching. I love an audience! Wayne wants me to bias the wind, and I know how, but I prefer not to, so I did everything straightaway. My wingover was tight on the lines, so I was off to the races. I was careful with it since it was the first test of my weight and control adjustments, but it turned much better. My inside loops were good big and round and so were my outsides. All of my shapes were clean even with the wind challenging my pullouts. I got scary low on a triangle, but the Nobler is such a truck, it didn't bobble. I'm finally getting over that. My least pretty shape was the second half of my square 8. Making the two outside turns I got blown out of shape, but I recovered for a nice final intersection and a square exit. I got too close to the ground a couple of times, but it went off without having to do any extra laps to regain my composure. One of the biggest tests is the climb into loop3 of the clover, and again the climb into the exit wingover into the wind, but the FP35 has the guts... at least when it's running lean. Way too many laps later I landed. And heard something unusual from Wayne. "Boy, if you'da flown that pattern in a contest... in this wind, you would have blown everybody away." Well Hot Damn! I remembered the rough parts, and I'm my own worst critic. But it felt good to finally hear that from someone who's been hanging with me from the beginning. Strangely, that's back to back, Saturday he told me one of my flights would have impressed the Judges. It was a slow slightly too rich pattern on the oriental in dead calm air when I had to walk back to keep air lifting it. Either Wayne is getting cheesy in his old age, or I am improving.

Then the weather moved in and Wayne hadn't even rigged his IDS or P-40. We waited it out, but the front was pushing another line of storms. So we yakked for a while and decided to call it at about 6:00. But I'm glad I got at least that one flight. I'll open up the cooling duct and try again. It might be a while, we both have a lot going on this month, but stay tuned in case I get out again. I'll probably fly the Baby Streak. Been toting it around for several trips and never seem to get to it. But I can fly it at the Church. I'm kinda itching to do that. Make a movie, just like the old days.

Later,
Rusty

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Post  Cribbs74 Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:27 pm

Sounds like things are improving for you Rusty, I am happy that you are getting some good practice in.

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Post  roddie Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:35 pm

Hi Rusty, How many ounce fuel tank do you have on your Nobler? How much fuel do you usually consume for an optimal engine run/full pattern.. before shut-off? I'm sorry.. I haven't been paying much attention to the threads lately. Maybe you're still dialing it in? I'm guessing that the kit was built/finished really light, to be needing tail-weight. I don't remember you building this model. Did you acquire it already built? Is the .35FP w/tongue muffler a lot heavier than say; a Fox .35 Stunt? Do the Noblers vary much in weight, between the different styles? Which one do you have? How many questions did I ask?  Rolling Eyes

I have this complete unbuilt Nobler kit that my dad gave me. I hope to build it someday.

A day of War at the fort! I provided air support. Giesek10

I need to consult with some of the N.E.S.T guys up here.. on what needles they're using in their Fox's. I have both; .29 and .35 Stunt engines which I believe are both of the 1954 vintage.. from what I read in a thread here recently.

There's been some really wild weather happening.. or maybe it's just that there's so much more speak on the media/social media when there's an extreme weather event. News travels so fast nowadays. It's been a breezy Summer around these parts. Almost every day.. I observe and think to myself "nope.. shouldn't try to fly a small model today". T-storms seem to be more intense than they used to be.. or maybe I just pay more attention to the stories I've heard lately. 80+mph winds.. and trees being uprooted..  Shocked . Our house is surrounded by BIG TALL trees.. but our area is devoid of wetlands.. and the soil is of a tight-gravely composition. We've only seen a few inches of rain all season.
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Post  RknRusty Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:59 pm

Lol Roddie. Read this, it should answer some questions until I can get back and chill in front of the computer tonight.
https://www.coxengineforum.com/t8573-the-rescue-nobler

Rusty

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Post  Cribbs74 Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:54 pm

Roddie,

I can answer a few, Rusty can get the rest...

For your Fox, the stock needle will work to a point, but you will be better off with a ST pr a PA needle. A newer Fox needle will work, but good luck finding one.

The FP .35 is heavier than a Fox .35, actually just about every .35 engine is heavier than a Fox .35...

The FP definitely has more power.

The Gieseke Nobler should be a little less weighty than say a Green box Nobler, but significantly less than a TF ARF Nobler.

Ron
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Post  RknRusty Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:50 pm

Cribbs74 wrote:Sounds like things are improving for you Rusty, I am happy that you are getting some good practice in.

Yeah Ron, I think so. I'll be especially happy if I can get a decent stretch without serious repairs. I'd like to work on some of the things I always talk about but never do. I did come kinda close to razing the LG off, but hey, I didn't.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to read my reports. I enjoy writing them and re-living the day for better or worse. Moving to full fuse planes has been really great for me, I never imagined how much easier they are to fly consistently.

Roddie, I haven't tried getting the fuel metered in the Nobler yet since it's still having runaway runs due to the overheating. But it has a 4 ounce tank and running that lean could probably do the pattern on 3 oz or less. When the same type tank and very same engine were on my old DirtyBird Skyray, I would fill it and draw back about an ounce+ and not run overtime. The 40 on the Oriental, when tuned correctly uses all of 5 ounces for a pattern plus a decent pad, which I'll reduce at contest time. But it changes between Columbia and Huntersville. Rolling Eyes  I was flying the Oriental too lean in May at both contests, so 4 oz was plenty, but I've since found I like flying richer and slower, so had to get a 5 oz tank. Once I get the Nobler figured out, my mission will be to decide which plane is my #1 and which is my backup.

The Nobler weighs 42-43 ounces. Bob Zambelli says that Noblers in the 30something ounce range fly poorly. The weights vary a lot I think. I have no idea what weight the kits build out to. I have an old beatup Green Box Nobler without an engine that I haven't weighed. I'll check that out.

If you read the Rescue Nobler thread, you know it's an ARF that was disposed of when the original builder epoxied the hinges together. I'm pretty sure my FP is heavier than a Fox, but don't know how much. It's easy to put tail weight on a plane.

Go fly in the wind. The wind can be your friend. You just have to keep track of it and know if certain directions at your site will be turbulent or not. Through the trees or around buildings, for instance.

BTW, I'm going flying Sunday morning.
Rusty


EDIT: After reading Rons post, I'd like to add. I could not have flown in that 12mph wind and completed a quality pattern with any less power than my FP delivered. I'm very lucky it was a lean run, unintended as it was. If I had a 40 I might have used it. Wayne flew this same plane with a B40.

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Post  Ken Cook Sat Aug 08, 2015 5:33 am

The Fp.35 is almost as powerful as the .40. It's also easier to tune. It doesn't have as harsh as a break as the .40 and generally out of the box it works well. I prefer the ABN version over the iron. Many say the Nobler flies best when it's in the 43-46 ounce range. I tend to believe this theory as I went through this with several Orientals. This theory become very noticeable when the plane gets hit by a sidewind.  I fly my Oriental with a Fox .35. The engine works well, but if the winds are up forget about it. The problem is the size and weight for the Fox. There literally is no more room for power. Keep in mind that a Fox .35 mounted upright or inverted makes slightly more power than mounted sidewinder (profile). There's no burp in a Fox when mounted in these 2 orientations. Your at the max and the engine is launching in a wet 2 stroke with little to no break in the maneuvers. This wouldn't be the case for the FP.35. You would never use all the power from a FP .35 as your trading rpm's for speed by using a low pitch prop. The Top Flite Gieseke Nobler suggests on the plane the use of a 10x5 prop. What they don't mention is that while the Fox was working, it's working very hard to do so and it wasn't uncommon to be pumping nitro to it to do so. I have done this myself but one thing to worry about with the Fox is the crank. They will break and it only requires 15% nitro to do it. It doesn't happen immediately, but it will.

Answering fuel capacity questions can be very difficult. Altitude, props, fuel, weight, line length has a dramatic impact on your useage. It's safe to say however that a Fox .35 requires a 4 oz. tank to do the pattern. It won't use all 4 oz's as there will be several laps left after the last maneuver. This can be very consistent from one to another due to the fact that the venturi isn't removeable like the FP engines.

The Fp did indeed come as a FP-S version which also had a different muffler. While the muffler was fairly light it utilized a very small outlet which will increase fuel economy but at the same time would  overheat things. Most of your FP engines the .35 and also the .40 vary in fuel useage. I've seen some do a pattern comfortably with 4 oz's. I've also seen it go the other way as I own a few that won't do the pattern on anything less than 5 oz's. A free flowing muffler, a venturi in the .273" area and a light pitch prop like the APC 10.5 x 4.5 is going to require 4 -41/2 oz's to do the pattern. I would be shooting for 4 1/2 personally as it keeps the engine from triggering into a lean run. The Tower .40 FP clones seem to run a bit more economical . I noticed a bit of head chamber differences and also true ABC which could also be why.

The Gieseke Nobler is a very good flying plane. The Top Flite kit assuming your fuse shells are still in good shape is a good building model. We have several of them in out club and when powered with a FP.35 or .40 makes for a very competitive plane. One of our senior club members recently went into a home used the Gieseke Nobler exclusively. Bob (The Bear) Gieseke signed the wing and drew a cartoon like Nobler on the wing  at the Nats a few years ago.


Last edited by Ken Cook on Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:10 am; edited 3 times in total
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Post  roddie Sat Aug 08, 2015 5:34 am

Thanks Rusty and Ron. (oops.. and Ken) I'm just getting back to this now since I posted.. and only have a few minutes before I have to leave for work. I have a gig tonight too.. Rolling Eyes I'll try to read the rescue Nobler thread on Sunday.

Have a great weekend!
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Post  Ken Cook Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:10 am

Rusty mentions the B-40. I can't say enough good about that engine. It takes a lot of break -in. I learned this the hard way and circumvented this and hand lapped the engine as I do with all of my engines nowadays. Unfortunately, the engine underwent several changes through early production to the end. Knowing what you have is a bit difficult. Reason being is that when the maker wasn't making these for some time, many of them were being assembled from parts inventory. Several of the B-40 users were on a waiting list for over a year. I had some minor issues with mine but I love those engines. Weighs the same as a Fox .35 too bad it doesn't fit the same bolt pattern. The Double Star .40 is essentially the same engine but does fit the Fox .35 footprint. These engines carry a higher price tag than most which somewhat handicapped them to a degree. They do utilize a very nice stunt run when setup properly. Fuel economy and power is almost identical to the FP. They fit the same bolt pattern as the FP but they're 2.5 ounces lighter. They're also AAC construction which I'm a big fan of . John has mentioned the re introduction of these again but we will see. Parts supply is extremely limited mainly to my explanation above. It's very unfortunate that this is the situation. I attended some of the north Jersey contests where the New York stunt guys flew them exclusively. It was very neat to see. John Brodak attended some of those events and we all flew together comparing notes. Ken
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Post  RknRusty Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:09 pm

Wayne's two B40s run really well, but are difficult to crank, and we frequently give up and use the electric starter. My FP40 is the same way. It likes to be really wet first, but with a very fine line before it's too wet. Ken, your 'invert the plane and rock the prop' advice for de-flooding, works great. It saved my hide at the contest at Triple Tree. It pumps the gas right back out of the combustion chamber, down into the crankcase so you can pour it out the venturi.
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Post  Ken Cook Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:43 pm

Rusty, I have a fellow member here with a old OS 4 stroke. I tell him all the time not to over choke the engine. He never listens and this is always happening on his official flights. Whenever I help him I have to rid the engine of it's tidal wave of fuel.  My recommendation to all not only for quick starts but battery life duration is get to know your equipment. I see many quickly resorting to flooding the engine thinking it doesn't have enough prime. They continue in frustration to pull even more choke through the engine which really drowns it out. Having a quick remedy to starting is imperative especially during a contest due to the time required to pull a plug and blow profusely into the cylinder. The end result is a over run if one doesn't take a attempt. Don't feel obligated to fly if your not comfortable. Take an attempt and a breather simultaneously. It relaxes your flight and puts you in a better frame of mind. Ken
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