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More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
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More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
Kim Wed Nov 15, 2023 5:09 pm
From my Facebook Page today:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Ebay Strikes Again!!!"
"I threw a half-hearted bid at this beautiful Cox RR-1 .049, and was surprised to win it.
RR-1's are the prettiest of the Cox Engines (So Says Kim!), and were an early attempt by Cox Mfg. to create a hot-rod version of their sensational "Bee" line of engines...only to be upstaged by the REALLY Hot-Rod Tee Dee series.
Though they appear very similar to Baby Bees, their guts are different. Cox replaced the familiar reed valve with a rotary valve, which complicated their manufacture (translation: More $$) and maintenance. The rotary valve didn't provide a big enough increase in performance against this added expense.
RR-1's were STILL produced for a good while---from 1957 to 1965---so they're fairly rare, but not as much as some other shorter production runs.
This one's cylinder and needle valve are not period-correct, but I can always scrounge through the junk drawer, and put them right if I decide to keep the Engine Nerds from jumping on me. A lot of them are already aggravated enough with me even running these little jewels.
Speaking of running...I put this on on a stand and cranked it up this morning. Prop was a gray 5x3, fuel was 25% Sig.
It started easy enough, but would only take fuel for about a 30 second run. It ran great, but only for half-a-minute. I REALLY didn't want to take this dog apart, but a run that short wouldn't take a plane far enough to outrun a thrown rock.
So, a careful break-down revealed that its vent pipe (which ALSO serves as a stand / overflow pipe) had been cut short for some reason...probably some past Free Flight dude wanting to limit the run to prevent losing his plane.
A piece of tubing fixed it quick, a new tank gasket was added, and the RR-1 was back in the game...though I'm PROBABLY gonna have to take it apart AGAIN 🤪. Its mixture adjustment goes a little wonky at about the half-tank mark...indicating that the gasket on the venturi tube is leaking, letting air in as the fuel level descends below it.
Oh man...a job for a different morning while riding a Folgers surge.
"
I love this hobby so much.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Ebay Strikes Again!!!"
"I threw a half-hearted bid at this beautiful Cox RR-1 .049, and was surprised to win it.
RR-1's are the prettiest of the Cox Engines (So Says Kim!), and were an early attempt by Cox Mfg. to create a hot-rod version of their sensational "Bee" line of engines...only to be upstaged by the REALLY Hot-Rod Tee Dee series.
Though they appear very similar to Baby Bees, their guts are different. Cox replaced the familiar reed valve with a rotary valve, which complicated their manufacture (translation: More $$) and maintenance. The rotary valve didn't provide a big enough increase in performance against this added expense.
RR-1's were STILL produced for a good while---from 1957 to 1965---so they're fairly rare, but not as much as some other shorter production runs.
This one's cylinder and needle valve are not period-correct, but I can always scrounge through the junk drawer, and put them right if I decide to keep the Engine Nerds from jumping on me. A lot of them are already aggravated enough with me even running these little jewels.
Speaking of running...I put this on on a stand and cranked it up this morning. Prop was a gray 5x3, fuel was 25% Sig.
It started easy enough, but would only take fuel for about a 30 second run. It ran great, but only for half-a-minute. I REALLY didn't want to take this dog apart, but a run that short wouldn't take a plane far enough to outrun a thrown rock.
So, a careful break-down revealed that its vent pipe (which ALSO serves as a stand / overflow pipe) had been cut short for some reason...probably some past Free Flight dude wanting to limit the run to prevent losing his plane.
A piece of tubing fixed it quick, a new tank gasket was added, and the RR-1 was back in the game...though I'm PROBABLY gonna have to take it apart AGAIN 🤪. Its mixture adjustment goes a little wonky at about the half-tank mark...indicating that the gasket on the venturi tube is leaking, letting air in as the fuel level descends below it.
Oh man...a job for a different morning while riding a Folgers surge.
"I love this hobby so much.
Last edited by Kim on Sun Nov 19, 2023 8:07 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
crankbndr Wed Nov 15, 2023 6:16 pm
They are good looking engine but that cylinder is brutally ugly!! LOL
I just don't care for those step wall cylinders, pet peeve
I just don't care for those step wall cylinders, pet peeve
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
GallopingGhostler Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:44 pm
Kim, glad to see that you diagnosed and fixed the cut short vent in the tank, and the need for a new venturi O-ring. You've got a prized engine there. Too bad they didn't make the R/C Bee with the rear rotary valve like they alluded to in the future engine announcements.
I remember the saying by the late Ken Willard, "If your successes exceeds the trials by one, then that's all that matters."
I remember the saying by the late Ken Willard, "If your successes exceeds the trials by one, then that's all that matters."
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
getback Thu Nov 16, 2023 6:22 am
Good looking engine , that is crazy the PO cut the tube off short in stead of just measuring enough fuel to get the job done 
Got plans for it ? 
Got plans for it ? 
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
Kim Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:31 am
getback wrote:Good looking engine , that is crazy the PO cut the tube off short in stead of just measuring enough fuel to get the job done
Yeah...if will fit, I'm probably gonna put it in the "Bee-Tween" Billy gifted me. I haven't tied it yet...Billy tapered it's cowling to fit a Babe Bee, and I'm NOT gonna cut on it!
I've been doing a rebuild on my 2 Meter Bord of Time, so it may get bolted to a "Board of Engines" and flown as a twin with its sibling.
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
Kim Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:38 am
So, it HAD to be done, and with the Folgers working its magic this morning, my newly acquired RR-1 .049 got pulled apart to receive a needed new gasket on its venturi tube.
While at it, I made up a small album showing the drive pin for the rotary valve in detail, and its relationship with the venturi tube.
I also brought in my "original stock" RR-1 for comparison, and it and its parts are on the right in the photos. And, to answer a question, its cylinder is a dual port thin wall of the period...I THINK...so don't nerd-assault me if it's NOT how the original came equipped
While at it, I made up a small album showing the drive pin for the rotary valve in detail, and its relationship with the venturi tube.
I also brought in my "original stock" RR-1 for comparison, and it and its parts are on the right in the photos. And, to answer a question, its cylinder is a dual port thin wall of the period...I THINK...so don't nerd-assault me if it's NOT how the original came equipped
Last edited by Kim on Thu Nov 16, 2023 6:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
balogh Thu Nov 16, 2023 9:31 am
Hello Kim,
the genuine RR-1s came with the No1 thin wall cylinders that had tapered bore in them.
I have a Frankenstein RR-1 that sports a No1 cylinder with a P40 lettering stamped on it...a 2-bypass ported cylinder, most likely assigned to COX P40 planes (hence the stamping on the cylinder), and donated by the previous owner to the RR-1.
I would compare its performance to the old stock Black Widow that had a somewhat wider venturi diameter, but still reed valve, whose efficiency is probably less than the rotary valve in the RR-1, so these 2 differences offset each other..
the genuine RR-1s came with the No1 thin wall cylinders that had tapered bore in them.
I have a Frankenstein RR-1 that sports a No1 cylinder with a P40 lettering stamped on it...a 2-bypass ported cylinder, most likely assigned to COX P40 planes (hence the stamping on the cylinder), and donated by the previous owner to the RR-1.
I would compare its performance to the old stock Black Widow that had a somewhat wider venturi diameter, but still reed valve, whose efficiency is probably less than the rotary valve in the RR-1, so these 2 differences offset each other..
Last edited by balogh on Thu Nov 16, 2023 9:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
Kim Thu Nov 16, 2023 9:43 am
balogh wrote:Hello Kim,
the genuine RR-1s came with the No1 thin wall cylinders that had tapered bore in them.
I have a Frankenstein RR-1 that sports a No1 cylinder with a P40 lettering stamped in it...a 2-bypass ported cylinder, most likely assigned to COX P40 planes (hence the stamping on the cylinder), and donated by the previous owner to the RR-1.
I would compare its performance to the old stock Black Widow that had a somewhat wider venturi diameter, but still reed valve, whose efficiency is probably less than the rotary valve in the RR-1, so these 2 differences offset each other..
Yeah, I'll probably swap it out for a more correct one at some point.
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
GallopingGhostler Thu Nov 16, 2023 11:59 am
Examining the salient running characteristics of the RR-1 versus the reed valves, I gather that the geometry restrictions by having an integral tank behind the engine prevented the RR-1 from truly shining. It was easier in the Tee Dee and Medallion series to obtain proper valving through its less restrictive front throat venturi and crankshaft. The later higher performance reed valves prove this point.
Interestingly enough, the well engineered but homely looking Testors .049 8000 engine proved this point, being one of the highest performing off-the-shelf engines in the reed valve class, outdoing the RR-1.
Sceptre Flight Model Engine Tests: Testor 8000, April 1978 MAN
Peter Chinn's test results on 15% nitro fuel.
Sceptre Flight Engine Tests: Logging the Cox RR-1
Test results on 30% nitro fuel.
As you see, the Testors 8000 matched the performance of the RR-1 on only 15% nitro. (RR-1 test was based on Cox Racing Fuel - 30% nitro.)
OTOH, although more powerful than the Babe Bee and Golden Bee, the stock Black Widow fell slightly short of the RR-1 and 8000 without additional modifications.
Sceptre Flight Engine Tests: Cox .049 Black Widow, Aug. 1974 Aeromodeller
Peter Chinn's test results on 15% nitro fuel.
Bill Netzeband was a genious when he created the Testors 8000, despite its humble looks, was wonderful powerhouse of an engine. This is why a few here who have installed the "pipe bomb" version of the engine (RTF donor engines) have a fond love for it.
Interestingly enough, the well engineered but homely looking Testors .049 8000 engine proved this point, being one of the highest performing off-the-shelf engines in the reed valve class, outdoing the RR-1.
Sceptre Flight Model Engine Tests: Testor 8000, April 1978 MAN
Peter Chinn's test results on 15% nitro fuel.
Sceptre Flight Engine Tests: Logging the Cox RR-1
Test results on 30% nitro fuel.
As you see, the Testors 8000 matched the performance of the RR-1 on only 15% nitro. (RR-1 test was based on Cox Racing Fuel - 30% nitro.)
OTOH, although more powerful than the Babe Bee and Golden Bee, the stock Black Widow fell slightly short of the RR-1 and 8000 without additional modifications.
Sceptre Flight Engine Tests: Cox .049 Black Widow, Aug. 1974 Aeromodeller
Peter Chinn's test results on 15% nitro fuel.
Bill Netzeband was a genious when he created the Testors 8000, despite its humble looks, was wonderful powerhouse of an engine. This is why a few here who have installed the "pipe bomb" version of the engine (RTF donor engines) have a fond love for it.
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
cstatman Thu Nov 16, 2023 1:07 pm
Kim
SOOO COOOOOOLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!
SOOO COOOOOOLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
rdw777 Thu Nov 16, 2023 2:37 pm
Really neat engine Kim!…Those are some real eye candy… Will be interesting to see two of them on your test board… Would make a good bit of power!
That’s an interesting combination for your RR-1 Andras…. Since the P-40 was an early attempt to increase power seems kind appropriate on the RR-1….
I had no idea the Testors 8000 was that stout George…. Might be a fun engine to play with if one could work around the mounting…
Fun stuff..
That’s an interesting combination for your RR-1 Andras…. Since the P-40 was an early attempt to increase power seems kind appropriate on the RR-1….
I had no idea the Testors 8000 was that stout George…. Might be a fun engine to play with if one could work around the mounting…
Fun stuff..
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
Oldenginerod Fri Nov 17, 2023 4:21 am
rdw777 wrote:
I had no idea the Testors 8000 was that stout George…. Might be a fun engine to play with if one could work around the mounting…
Fun stuff..
Mounting of the 8000 isn't a problem as it has a rear tank mount. Easy Peasy!!
Here's George's
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
rdw777 Fri Nov 17, 2023 5:41 am
Mounting of the 8000 isn't a problem as it has a rear tank mount. Easy Peasy!!
Here's George's
Cool!… I didn’t realize the 8000 had a tank mount….I’m sure that kind of power on a Swordsman size airplane would be quite peppy!!
Here's George's
Cool!… I didn’t realize the 8000 had a tank mount….I’m sure that kind of power on a Swordsman size airplane would be quite peppy!!
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
GallopingGhostler Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:05 am
Yes, the Testor's 8000 was available as an alternative to the Babe Bee engine back in the 1970's. It was Testor's other engine besides the McCoy .049 Red Head. It came in a bubble pack card. It was strictly a C/L engine, set up for standard counter clockwise circle flight. If one wanted to use it for F/F or R/C, they had to mount the engine with cylinder downward, as the fuel feed was to the right (outside of C/L circle).
Unlike their consumer sold McCoy Red Head with tank mount, the 8000's mounting bolt pattern matched the Babe Bee, so I was able to easily mount the engine on the Swordsman 18 without redrilling mount holes.
I'm trying to remember who, was it Mark? who made a custom fuselage mounting system for the RTF donor pipe bomb engine. There are a couple threads on his exploits. Did a search using recommended Google, but wasn't able to hit the right combination of words to bring it up.
Unlike their consumer sold McCoy Red Head with tank mount, the 8000's mounting bolt pattern matched the Babe Bee, so I was able to easily mount the engine on the Swordsman 18 without redrilling mount holes.
I'm trying to remember who, was it Mark? who made a custom fuselage mounting system for the RTF donor pipe bomb engine. There are a couple threads on his exploits. Did a search using recommended Google, but wasn't able to hit the right combination of words to bring it up.
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
Kim Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:12 am
Yeah, I'm sort of on the watch for one of these and its tank/mount to fly on the Q-Tee in its next "Engines' video. I foolishly gave away a Testors version with the rail mounts and tank.
Testors AND Wen Mac and McCoy had some really great powerplants.
Testors AND Wen Mac and McCoy had some really great powerplants.
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
GallopingGhostler Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:37 am
Kim, maybe once I've settled in MO, may be able to visit you and loan you my 8000. Maybe we could start a Testors 8000 Traveling Engine thread.
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
Kim Sat Nov 18, 2023 9:19 am
GallopingGhostler wrote:Kim, maybe once I've settled in MO, may be able to visit you and loan you my 8000. Maybe we could start a Testors 8000 Traveling Engine thread.
Sounds Great!!!
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
Kim Sat Nov 18, 2023 11:15 am
Looking to swap out the #1 cylinder that came with the RR-1, with a "slightly more correct-appearing" #1 cylinder from a junkyard engine.
Many of these are low-time units, being the remnants of some failed RTF first flight, but this one (originally with a postage stamp backplate), looks to have been a fairly high-timer. So says the worn area ground into the case from the spring starter. Makes me think that it MAY have been from our hard-flown "community" Mustang from WAY back in the day.
That poor plastic brick had its landing gear struts cut away to help it more successfully perform belly-landings in the ball field grass (it STILL struck and tumbled, but with a slightly gentler tone...
). It still looked cool in its day, somewhat dangling out at the end of its dacron strings, and actually got flown quite a bit by a bunch of different kid pilots.
Anyway, there will be a test run beforehand to save unnecessary wrenching on the RR-1, and see if the junkyard cylinder/piston has still got some MoJo.
I know...it'll STILL not be correct, but maybe appear a BIT more correct if viewed from a few feet away!
Many of these are low-time units, being the remnants of some failed RTF first flight, but this one (originally with a postage stamp backplate), looks to have been a fairly high-timer. So says the worn area ground into the case from the spring starter. Makes me think that it MAY have been from our hard-flown "community" Mustang from WAY back in the day.
That poor plastic brick had its landing gear struts cut away to help it more successfully perform belly-landings in the ball field grass (it STILL struck and tumbled, but with a slightly gentler tone...
). It still looked cool in its day, somewhat dangling out at the end of its dacron strings, and actually got flown quite a bit by a bunch of different kid pilots.Anyway, there will be a test run beforehand to save unnecessary wrenching on the RR-1, and see if the junkyard cylinder/piston has still got some MoJo.
I know...it'll STILL not be correct, but maybe appear a BIT more correct if viewed from a few feet away!
Last edited by Kim on Sat Nov 18, 2023 12:31 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
GallopingGhostler Sat Nov 18, 2023 12:23 pm
Kim, I'd give it a perfect 10. View 10 feet away, and it ranks a "10".Kim wrote:I know...it'll STILL not be correct, but maybe appear a BIT more correct if viewed from a few feet away!
I think only a purist would be truly concerned. But, you are not a museum procurator collector, you're a user.
Back in the day when model plane magazines were in abundance, someone would take a photo of your plane, post an article, no one would notice that the cylinder was not "period correct".They'd just mention you as the builder and it was powered by the infamous legacy RR-1.
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
balogh Sat Nov 18, 2023 12:33 pm
All thin wall cylinders I have, No1 and No2 alike, have tapered bore that keeps the MoJo longer than later pruduction, no taper cylinders, in my experience..I have flown the heck out of my Quickie100 powered by a red postage stamp reedie with thin wall No1 cylinder, that I bought off of ebay in a fairly used condition, but it still has excellent compression.
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
rsv1cox Sat Nov 18, 2023 12:45 pm
Well, all this RR-1 discussion sent me to the dark reaches of my engine display case to retrieve my one and only RR-1 and my single claim to true Cox Royality.
Bought from Paul Gibeault years ago. Paul sent it in a nice Air Canada case and included a note and the appropriate documentation. A treasure for me, but I envy Kim in making up a parts example. My true calling.
Bought from Paul Gibeault years ago. Paul sent it in a nice Air Canada case and included a note and the appropriate documentation. A treasure for me, but I envy Kim in making up a parts example. My true calling.
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
balogh Sat Nov 18, 2023 1:22 pm
And Kim, junk or not, this No1 cylinder is not dented at all, so if you use some gunblue on it, even a close look on the engine will be a pleasure
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
rsv1cox Sat Nov 18, 2023 5:55 pm
balogh wrote:And Kim, junk or not, this No1 cylinder is not dented at all, so if you use some gunblue on it, even a close look on the engine will be a pleasure
Take a close look at my RR-1 Andras. Just under the exhaust port you may notice a small scratch. I like to think it happened while Paul was winning some contest or other with it. Badge of honor!
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
balogh Sat Nov 18, 2023 6:11 pm
That is true Bob, those manly battle scars on an engine you get from a champ are adding it value.
When I get a used engine from a no name prior owner on ebay I tend to give it the good treatment and repair scars with gunblue...just out of affection
When I get a used engine from a no name prior owner on ebay I tend to give it the good treatment and repair scars with gunblue...just out of affection
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Re: More RR-1 Stuff...The OTHER Cylinder/Piston is Installed
GallopingGhostler Sun Nov 19, 2023 2:11 pm
balogh wrote:That is true Bob, those manly battle scars on an engine you get from a champ are adding it value.
The value is personal more than anything else including recognition by others. I was totally elated when I was able to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse by restoring this water damaged engine that was misrepresented by the seller as "casting occlusions" (entrapped air bubbles during hot aluminum pouring into the mold) that was actually caused by prolonged exposure to water moisture, with carefully sand blasted exterior to hide the truth.
And, cleaning up this early 1950's Space-Bug Junior that was a bargain purchase back in July, pointed out by Jacob.
When I am in a better position to do, will post photos and stats and these running.
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